I watched a documentary about some idiot who identified as non-binary. They were unable to give a clear explanation of what they meant and having watched the documentary which was like a comedy sketch I was none the wiser. Some people have too much time on their hands and just want to be an imaginary victim.
Waking up in the morning and then deciding what sex you want to be for the day is the biggest load of guff I've ever heard of. It seems as sensible as me wanting to identify as a goldfish or a packet of crisps. People are free to do what they want but others also have the right to find something f***ing ridiculous.
I can see how some people are 'intersex' which is definable as someone being born with a mix of male and female biological characteristics but it's much more of a grey area when it comes to the rest of the gender debate. There is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain and I don't think you can just win arguments by shouting people down just because they don't agree with you.
With the exception of the very rare occurrence of intersex. Everyone's Gender is decided at the moment of conception. No amount of pretty frocks, drugs, silicon and surgery can ever change that. Humans who insist they were "born in the wrong body" need Psychiatric help not surgical.
As a child we were taught that gender was about xx or xy chromosomes, that was the most common position, but that some people had an extra chromosome. Sexuality on the other hand I think is not only about chromosomes, but other stuff. Political oppression might be about, chromosomes, gender and sexuality as well. Would it help if everybody identified themselves as sentient individuals who overlap with other sentient individuals from time to time? For example I could identify as Seth, and any other stuff will be revealed gradually as appropriate.
With the exception of the very rare occurrence of intersex. Everyone's Gender is decided at the moment of conception. No amount of pretty frocks, drugs, silicon and surgery can ever change that. Humans who insist they were "born in the wrong body" need Psychiatric help not surgical.
(Tin-hat on and hiding in the bunker)
There is a big debate on this in psychiatric circles - how long there will be free and open debate is another matter. It's a complex issue and as in many areas of psychiatry views can change very quickly.
Neuroscientists don't seem to have come to come to any concrete conclusions re gender dysphoria so it's all remaining a bit of a grey area
Two trolls trying to out troll each other and one is a fecking Millwall troll.
Bye
As for most tedious thread, I think the Millwall Relegation Watch has got to be up there along with the Brexit one.
I'll have you know that on 28th April 2015 and for some days after, the Millwall Relegation thread was one of the most exciting, beautiful and popular on this board. Exquisite, some might have called it. Sadly, it has never again lived up to the highs of those heady spring days. But a lot of us live in hope.
As for the topic of this thread, I've got to be honest I haven't really followed properly what's gone on. I do have a general feeling though that too many people are keen to put labels on others that the recipients aren't always happy with. Live and let live, that's what I say.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
Hey Bob, posting this because I think you'll take the time to read it.
There's a difference between "Gender" and "Sex," and what you're describing in your post is largely sex (which you call out at the end of the post).
"Sex" is biological. "Gender" is a social construct. It's the roles we traditionally associate with "male" and "female." But it's largely performative and evolving. A lot of the things that would have been classed as "male only" roles or professions 30 years ago no longer are, and vice versa.
Here's a quick little article that discusses it. I've been trying to find something better, that's longer and goes more in-depth into the differences both between sex and gender, and also how gender roles are played out in societal frameworks. If I find something good, I'll post it.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
You're not doing yourself any favours in shaking off this potential stalker
Your, sir, are also a TERF, according to Leuth.
Is a TERF a good or bad thing to be called?
I had to do a search for a definition. The best I could come up with was a species of furry, non-sentient animals raised for their milk, meat, and hide. They could be found on a variety of planets across the galaxy, from Alderaan to Lothal. Despite their usefulness, they were often regarded as disgusting because of their strong body odour.
Hence Princess Leia calling Hans Solo a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking terf-herder
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
Hey Bob, posting this because I think you'll take the time to read it.
There's a difference between "Gender" and "Sex," and what you're describing in your post is largely sex (which you call out at the end of the post).
"Sex" is biological. "Gender" is a social construct. It's the roles we traditionally associate with "male" and "female." But it's largely performative and evolving. A lot of the things that would have been classed as "male only" roles or professions 30 years ago no longer are, and vice versa.
Here's a quick little article that discusses it. I've been trying to find something better, that's longer and goes more in-depth into the differences both between sex and gender, and also how gender roles are played out in societal frameworks. If I find something good, I'll post it.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
You're not doing yourself any favours in shaking off this potential stalker
Your, sir, are also a TERF, according to Leuth.
Is a TERF a good or bad thing to be called?
I had to do a search for a definition. The best I could come up with was a species of furry, non-sentient animals raised for their milk, meat, and hide. They could be found on a variety of planets across the galaxy, from Alderaan to Lothal. Despite their usefulness, they were often regarded as disgusting because of their strong body odour.
Hence Princess Leia calling Hans Solo a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking terf-herder
Oh, no, sorry, that's a nerf.
Actual genuine snorted beer down my nostrils moment.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
Hey Bob, posting this because I think you'll take the time to read it.
There's a difference between "Gender" and "Sex," and what you're describing in your post is largely sex (which you call out at the end of the post).
"Sex" is biological. "Gender" is a social construct. It's the roles we traditionally associate with "male" and "female." But it's largely performative and evolving. A lot of the things that would have been classed as "male only" roles or professions 30 years ago no longer are, and vice versa.
Here's a quick little article that discusses it. I've been trying to find something better, that's longer and goes more in-depth into the differences both between sex and gender, and also how gender roles are played out in societal frameworks. If I find something good, I'll post it.
Yes pretty much agree with all of that and in a ham-fisted way was what I was trying to say in differentiating between the two elements.
The point on male only job roles is societal evolution though. A woman going down the pit for an 8 hour shift would I’m sure still in the vast majority of cases consider themselves to be female. That’s not about gender identity but about questioning perceived gender norms.
Without giving away my thought on this issue (because I can't be arsed to argue with people that can't except people can have different opinions), there are always people who love to push the boundaries of something, which in turn makes it very hard to draw a line when something sensible is taken to a ridiculous level.
For instance, my old politics teacher at school is Scottish, but doesn't see herself as Scottish, British, European.... But as a citizen of the world. But of course when it suited her she'd say she was Scottish.
We are in a very weird position these days where if we even attempt to draw a line between someone being sensible or someone having a mental health issue is seen as deeply offensive.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
You're not doing yourself any favours in shaking off this potential stalker
Your, sir, are also a TERF, according to Leuth.
Is a TERF a good or bad thing to be called?
That depends if you identify as pro-banterist or not.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
You're not doing yourself any favours in shaking off this potential stalker
Your, sir, are also a TERF, according to Leuth.
Is a TERF a good or bad thing to be called?
That depends if you identify as pro-banterist or not.
Not a subject that I’ve given much thought to if I’m honest. But that won’t stop me commenting of course.
Generally, with the exception of intersex conditions, there are two genders that most people can agree on - male and female. A man wearing a dress doesn’t make them a woman in the biological sense - even with surgery. Not aware that uterus and ovarian transplants accompany surgical realignment. So perhaps I can understand women (feminist or not) taking exception to being told what to do as women by someone who was a man last week!
That’s biological - but there is the socio/environmenta/psychological constructs also in play. A man may wish to live their life and consider themselves female if they so wish but they are still biologically male. And vice versa of course. I have no problem with that at all.
You're not doing yourself any favours in shaking off this potential stalker
Your, sir, are also a TERF, according to Leuth.
Is a TERF a good or bad thing to be called?
That depends if you identify as pro-banterist or not.
I watched a documentary about some idiot who identified as non-binary. They were unable to give a clear explanation of what they meant and having watched the documentary which was like a comedy sketch I was none the wiser. Some people have too much time on their hands and just want to be an imaginary victim.
Waking up in the morning and then deciding what sex you want to be for the day is the biggest load of guff I've ever heard of. It seems as sensible as me wanting to identify as a goldfish or a packet of crisps. People are free to do what they want but others also have the right to find something f***ing ridiculous.
I can see how some people are 'intersex' which is definable as someone being born with a mix of male and female biological characteristics but it's much more of a grey area when it comes to the rest of the gender debate. There is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain and I don't think you can just win arguments by shouting people down just because they don't agree with you.
Decided to give you a flag for the hell of it, I’m in that kind of mood.
With the exception of the very rare occurrence of intersex. Everyone's Gender is decided at the moment of conception. No amount of pretty frocks, drugs, silicon and surgery can ever change that. Humans who insist they were "born in the wrong body" need Psychiatric help not surgical.
I watched a documentary about some idiot who identified as non-binary. They were unable to give a clear explanation of what they meant and having watched the documentary which was like a comedy sketch I was none the wiser. Some people have too much time on their hands and just want to be an imaginary victim.
Waking up in the morning and then deciding what sex you want to be for the day is the biggest load of guff I've ever heard of. It seems as sensible as me wanting to identify as a goldfish or a packet of crisps. People are free to do what they want but others also have the right to find something f***ing ridiculous.
I can see how some people are 'intersex' which is definable as someone being born with a mix of male and female biological characteristics but it's much more of a grey area when it comes to the rest of the gender debate. There is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain and I don't think you can just win arguments by shouting people down just because they don't agree with you.
I'm sometimes a tiny bit suspicious of people who've identified as 'non-binary' and their motivations for such.
What I'm not suspicious of are people who genuinely identify as belonging to a gender other than their birth sex. These people do not 'wake up in the morning' and decide they want a sex-change. What happens is that years and years of brain development - often traumatic - has put them in the position where they are psychologically dependent upon being identified by a different gender. This is something that often can't be 'cured' with therapy. All that therapy can do is allow them to come to terms with what their psychological needs are.
If that means being born as a man but living and identifying as a woman, then it is their right to do so and you would have to be a special kind of arsehole to deny them this.
Trans people have suffered years, even decades of intense psychological pain. They need pity and support, not exclusion.
This is a matter of empathy, not of 'feminist rights', which I believe are only being flaunted here in order to victimise and bully some of society's most vulnerable individuals.
No article this time. But a couple of film recommendations. The Danish Girl (which I haven't seen) being one, and Tangerine (which I have) being another. Oh, and Tomboy (which I also have).
This is a matter of empathy, not of 'feminist rights', which I believe are only being flaunted here in order to victimise and bully some of society's most vulnerable individuals.
It's more complicated than that Leuth. Basically for many years we've been using gender presentation as a proxy for biological sex, so if you present as a woman it's assumed that you have female sexual characteristics, because we don't wander round with our bits out any more. If there is an acceptance that that proxy relationship no longer holds true, then there are a whole host or rights, protections and restrictions that need to be disentangled to sort out whether they're based on your physical sex or your gender presentation. And if that process isn't done carefully enough, then cis-women (and also trans-men) are going to lose important protections that they need because of the prioritisation of gender identity over biology.
That said, I'm as fed up with the Germaine Greer end of the spectrum as I am the "die TERF die" crowd, and think both sides need to do more shutting up and listening rather than trying to shout each other down.
Just not with a notorious spanner troll on a Charlton football site.
No offence, obvs.
It's not worth discussing because he's Millwall? He's not a troll as some of the more sensitive CL members like to label anyone that disagrees with them. I'm not bothered about this particular subject, but this 'spanner' offers more meaningful contributions than any number of other people on here.
Big Bad World is fine by me, even if his stance on brexit is ambiguous. It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
Was at the Amersham Arms last night, they have renamed the disabled toilet the gender neutral toilet! Although disabled is a gender neutral word, strange times.
Big Bad World is fine by me, even if his stance on brexit is ambiguous. It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
I've 'liked' your post, Seth, even though you threw in your obligatory Brexit remark. Smiley face thing.
Just not with a notorious spanner troll on a Charlton football site.
No offence, obvs.
It's not worth discussing because he's Millwall? He's not a troll as some of the more sensitive CL members like to label anyone that disagrees with them. I'm not bothered about this particular subject, but this 'spanner' offers more meaningful contributions than any number of other people on here.
I'm sure he'll be back as soon as he's finished feeding his children small portions of vegetarian gruel.
Anyway.. The hijras of india seem to be much better sorted on the subject.
Big Bad World is fine by me, even if his stance on brexit is ambiguous. It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
I've 'liked' your post, Seth, even though you threw in your obligatory Brexit remark. Smiley face thing.
Comments
Waking up in the morning and then deciding what sex you want to be for the day is the biggest load of guff I've ever heard of. It seems as sensible as me wanting to identify as a goldfish or a packet of crisps. People are free to do what they want but others also have the right to find something f***ing ridiculous.
I can see how some people are 'intersex' which is definable as someone being born with a mix of male and female biological characteristics but it's much more of a grey area when it comes to the rest of the gender debate. There is no such thing as a 'male' or 'female' brain and I don't think you can just win arguments by shouting people down just because they don't agree with you.
No amount of pretty frocks, drugs, silicon and surgery can ever change that.
Humans who insist they were "born in the wrong body" need Psychiatric help not surgical.
(Tin-hat on and hiding in the bunker)
Sexuality on the other hand I think is not only about chromosomes, but other stuff.
Political oppression might be about, chromosomes, gender and sexuality as well.
Would it help if everybody identified themselves as sentient individuals who overlap with other sentient individuals from time to time?
For example I could identify as Seth, and any other stuff will be revealed gradually as appropriate.
Neuroscientists don't seem to have come to come to any concrete conclusions re gender dysphoria so it's all remaining a bit of a grey area
As for the topic of this thread, I've got to be honest I haven't really followed properly what's gone on. I do have a general feeling though that too many people are keen to put labels on others that the recipients aren't always happy with. Live and let live, that's what I say.
There's a difference between "Gender" and "Sex," and what you're describing in your post is largely sex (which you call out at the end of the post).
"Sex" is biological. "Gender" is a social construct. It's the roles we traditionally associate with "male" and "female." But it's largely performative and evolving. A lot of the things that would have been classed as "male only" roles or professions 30 years ago no longer are, and vice versa.
Here's a quick little article that discusses it. I've been trying to find something better, that's longer and goes more in-depth into the differences both between sex and gender, and also how gender roles are played out in societal frameworks. If I find something good, I'll post it.
https://www.refinery29.com/2017/11/177838/what-is-the-difference-between-sex-and-gender
Just not with a notorious spanner troll on a Charlton football site.
No offence, obvs.
Hence Princess Leia calling Hans Solo a stuck-up, half-witted, scruffy-looking terf-herder
Oh, no, sorry, that's a nerf.
The point on male only job roles is societal evolution though. A woman going down the pit for an 8 hour shift would I’m sure still in the vast majority of cases consider themselves to be female. That’s not about gender identity but about questioning perceived gender norms.
For instance, my old politics teacher at school is Scottish, but doesn't see herself as Scottish, British, European.... But as a citizen of the world. But of course when it suited her she'd say she was Scottish.
We are in a very weird position these days where if we even attempt to draw a line between someone being sensible or someone having a mental health issue is seen as deeply offensive.
What I'm not suspicious of are people who genuinely identify as belonging to a gender other than their birth sex. These people do not 'wake up in the morning' and decide they want a sex-change. What happens is that years and years of brain development - often traumatic - has put them in the position where they are psychologically dependent upon being identified by a different gender. This is something that often can't be 'cured' with therapy. All that therapy can do is allow them to come to terms with what their psychological needs are.
If that means being born as a man but living and identifying as a woman, then it is their right to do so and you would have to be a special kind of arsehole to deny them this.
Trans people have suffered years, even decades of intense psychological pain. They need pity and support, not exclusion.
This is a matter of empathy, not of 'feminist rights', which I believe are only being flaunted here in order to victimise and bully some of society's most vulnerable individuals.
No article this time. But a couple of film recommendations. The Danish Girl (which I haven't seen) being one, and Tangerine (which I have) being another. Oh, and Tomboy (which I also have).
That said, I'm as fed up with the Germaine Greer end of the spectrum as I am the "die TERF die" crowd, and think both sides need to do more shutting up and listening rather than trying to shout each other down.
He's not a troll as some of the more sensitive CL members like to label anyone that disagrees with them. I'm not bothered about this particular subject, but this 'spanner' offers more meaningful contributions than any number of other people on here.
It may be he posts here because the Millwall forum is more boring, even though the Millwall football is better.
Smiley face thing.
Anyway.. The hijras of india seem to be much better sorted on the subject.