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The Dangers of a Cashless Society.

11516182021

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    seth plum said:
    seth plum said:
    There are great swathes of employed people who because of the way they are paid can't avoid paying their correct tax.
    In terms of fairness I suppose, if a nurse, or a bank employee, or a soldier, or a shop worker has to contribute to their society by being in 'pay as you earn', surely it isn't fair for a tradesperson to underdeclare their income to avoid tax when an Amazon worker for example can't.
    Am I missing something obvious?
    Quite right. 

    That’s why there is little reasonable excuse for businesses to refuse card payments. 
    I probably naively thought that if you got a proper receipt, yes a paper one probably, for the exact money you paid even if in cash, that would help with the payment of tax.
    Isn't that the way it used to be before the internet and whatnot? 
    Issuing an invoice doesn’t assure it’s in the books for the taxman. 

    Invoices legitimately get spoilt after all. 

    Much harder / riskier to not account for the bank transactions on a business account. 
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    R0TW said:
    Rob7Lee said:
    Usually on the way home from the Valley, on match days we phone ahead and order a Chinese take away.

    I always get a 10% reduction if I pay by cash rather than by card.
    That’s without doubt to encourage people to pay with cash so that it’s money the restaurant doesn’t have to declare as income. There’s no other real reason. 
    100%

    Can't recall what topic it was on but I posted my experience of tradesmen over the last 18-24 months whilst I refurb my house. I've only found one that would take the complete payment by bank transfer, every single other (and I'm talking 20+) wanted at least an element of cash ranging from 25% to 100%. One guy I've used a lot and have got to know him quite well declares probably less than 25% of his earnings. I've also found most of them want me to buy (or pay for) the materials directly as otherwise their turn over would breach VAT levels.

    At first I tried to not use cash or very little but very quickly became apparent I'd not get much work done if I stuck to that principle! Even largish organisations, I've had new flooring fitted throughout at differing times and whilst paying for the carpet etc has been by debit/credit card, payment to the fitter always has to be cash (it even says it on the flooring invoice!)

    The lost revenue due to 'cash' payments to HMRC must be huge so little wonder there is a drive to go cashless.
    Maybe those tradespersons are not as wealthy as you?
    Furthermore, maybe they are in fear of losing the work if they slap 20% on top.

    Not sure of the relevance of the 1st part? But I think the second sentence is in part true but that's just a race to the bottom. The tradesman I mentioned now charges new clients £240 a day (well if you can call 8am - 2:30pm a day :D ), he seems to work minimum 5 days a week and declares about £14k apparently so he pays no income tax, so in reality he's 'taking home' about the same as a £90-100k a year PAYE job.
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    Rob7Lee said:
    R0TW said:
    Rob7Lee said:
    Usually on the way home from the Valley, on match days we phone ahead and order a Chinese take away.

    I always get a 10% reduction if I pay by cash rather than by card.
    That’s without doubt to encourage people to pay with cash so that it’s money the restaurant doesn’t have to declare as income. There’s no other real reason. 
    100%

    Can't recall what topic it was on but I posted my experience of tradesmen over the last 18-24 months whilst I refurb my house. I've only found one that would take the complete payment by bank transfer, every single other (and I'm talking 20+) wanted at least an element of cash ranging from 25% to 100%. One guy I've used a lot and have got to know him quite well declares probably less than 25% of his earnings. I've also found most of them want me to buy (or pay for) the materials directly as otherwise their turn over would breach VAT levels.

    At first I tried to not use cash or very little but very quickly became apparent I'd not get much work done if I stuck to that principle! Even largish organisations, I've had new flooring fitted throughout at differing times and whilst paying for the carpet etc has been by debit/credit card, payment to the fitter always has to be cash (it even says it on the flooring invoice!)

    The lost revenue due to 'cash' payments to HMRC must be huge so little wonder there is a drive to go cashless.
    Maybe those tradespersons are not as wealthy as you?
    Furthermore, maybe they are in fear of losing the work if they slap 20% on top.

    Not sure of the relevance of the 1st part? But I think the second sentence is in part true but that's just a race to the bottom. The tradesman I mentioned now charges new clients £240 a day (well if you can call 8am - 2:30pm a day :D ), he seems to work minimum 5 days a week and declares about £14k apparently so he pays no income tax, so in reality he's 'taking home' about the same as a £90-100k a year PAYE job.
    More fool the people paying him £240 cash
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    About 30 years ago the head honcho at the place I worked had some money nicked out of his jacket which was hanging up in his office. I can't remember the exact amount, but it was a good few thousand.

    Turns out he was having some building work done and had got the money out the bank so he could pay the tradesmen in cash.

    And this was the top man at the City VAT office!
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    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
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    R0TW said:
    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
    I agree with that sentiment too. 

    What that individual does tax wise is their problem not yours. 

    Of course that said they should pay what’s due. 
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    R0TW said:
    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
    I agree with that sentiment too. 

    What that individual does tax wise is their problem not yours. 

    Of course that said they should pay what’s due. 
    If they pay what's due , ROTW is paying another 15k
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    clb74 said:
    R0TW said:
    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
    I agree with that sentiment too. 

    What that individual does tax wise is their problem not yours. 

    Of course that said they should pay what’s due. 
    If they pay what's due , ROTW is paying another 15k
    They are giving all the benefit to the customer ? 

    The point I’m making if the discount is offered you take it. The responsibility is not yours for their accounting. 

    Also the reality of paying a tradesman is that the cost of the job is a factor of time versus a reasonable day rate and you are either happy to pay that amount or not. 
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    If a ‘discount’ is offered the argument is that it would be ‘human nature’ to take it.

    I am assuming the discount is only offered if a person pays by cash.

    Perhaps that ‘human nature’ should then be accompanied by at least a ‘social contract’ nature, where what is paid is backed up by a proper formal receipt detailing to whom the cash is paid, what for, their address, what the payment is for, the total amount and the date.

    With a copy for each party.

    That way if a tax inspector comes enquiring there is something to go on.
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    I should think in 2023 there's hardly anyone out there who's getting paid all their money in cash.
    Some may want the money in cash, but it just doesn't happen.
    It's easier for window cleaners to have the money transferred as they then don't have to collect the money.
    How much cash do cab drivers get now?
    Lots of punters want to pay with card.
    And surely if you were paying a tradesman cash you'd be giving them less.
    I know a labourer who was getting cash and a couple of months ago was getting £85
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    The hard part is trying to get a decent lump out of a bank.
    The manager didn’t want to part with it.
    The pig counted out £30k in front of everyone waiting behind me at the counter.
    HSBC Sidcup.

    What is nice is to actually see/feel your money.
    It gives it a greater worth than just seeing figures.
    Makes it more painful to part with though.
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    seth plum said:
    If a ‘discount’ is offered the argument is that it would be ‘human nature’ to take it.

    I am assuming the discount is only offered if a person pays by cash.

    Perhaps that ‘human nature’ should then be accompanied by at least a ‘social contract’ nature, where what is paid is backed up by a proper formal receipt detailing to whom the cash is paid, what for, their address, what the payment is for, the total amount and the date.

    With a copy for each party.

    That way if a tax inspector comes enquiring there is something to go on.
    Paying in cash can still see a receipt / invoice. 

    The point is whether that makes it way into the accounts for the business. 
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    That is why we need effective tax inspectors.
    If they recover more back taxes per year than their salary (where they themselves are paying via PAYE) then they pay for themselves, benefit the country, and chase down tax dodgers.
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    Rob7Lee said:
    R0TW said:
    Rob7Lee said:
    Usually on the way home from the Valley, on match days we phone ahead and order a Chinese take away.

    I always get a 10% reduction if I pay by cash rather than by card.
    That’s without doubt to encourage people to pay with cash so that it’s money the restaurant doesn’t have to declare as income. There’s no other real reason. 
    100%

    Can't recall what topic it was on but I posted my experience of tradesmen over the last 18-24 months whilst I refurb my house. I've only found one that would take the complete payment by bank transfer, every single other (and I'm talking 20+) wanted at least an element of cash ranging from 25% to 100%. One guy I've used a lot and have got to know him quite well declares probably less than 25% of his earnings. I've also found most of them want me to buy (or pay for) the materials directly as otherwise their turn over would breach VAT levels.

    At first I tried to not use cash or very little but very quickly became apparent I'd not get much work done if I stuck to that principle! Even largish organisations, I've had new flooring fitted throughout at differing times and whilst paying for the carpet etc has been by debit/credit card, payment to the fitter always has to be cash (it even says it on the flooring invoice!)

    The lost revenue due to 'cash' payments to HMRC must be huge so little wonder there is a drive to go cashless.
    Maybe those tradespersons are not as wealthy as you?
    Furthermore, maybe they are in fear of losing the work if they slap 20% on top.

    Not sure of the relevance of the 1st part? But I think the second sentence is in part true but that's just a race to the bottom. The tradesman I mentioned now charges new clients £240 a day (well if you can call 8am - 2:30pm a day :D ), he seems to work minimum 5 days a week and declares about £14k apparently so he pays no income tax, so in reality he's 'taking home' about the same as a £90-100k a year PAYE job.
    This is and should be getting cracked down on by HMRC. Any trade has a bottom / top line in potential earnings. If a eg electrician is declaring the same money as a person flipping burgers that’s a red flag. They know any spark unless there is a reason of health or absence is going to be earning within a certain window. Anything different is likely tax fraud. 
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    seth plum said:
    That is why we need effective tax inspectors.
    If they recover more back taxes per year than their salary (where they themselves are paying via PAYE) then they pay for themselves, benefit the country, and chase down tax dodgers.
    I should think if HMRC employed  someone on 50k they would get that back in a week.
    Imagine a phone call to Rob Lees mate.
    The tax inspector saying £14000 seems quite low , are there a few jobs you've accidentally forgot about?
    Have another look at your accounts or we could always look at the account in detail for you.
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    one thing not mentioned so far (I think) is that the prevalence of cards has produced the huge 'industry' of on-line gambling gaining huge profits for the 'bookmakers' and sometimes causing ruin for those unfortunate enough to become addicted to 'slots' and silly bets .. also of course it does make it easy to sit at home with the telly on and lose the odd quid on slow horses, dogs or underperforming sports teams .. much easier than going to the betting emporium and handing over proper cash for a punt
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    R0TW said:
    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
    Can’t blame anyone for taking the discount, even if the know it’s aiding a crime. 

    Doesn’t make the person offering it right though. 
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    clb74 said:
    seth plum said:
    That is why we need effective tax inspectors.
    If they recover more back taxes per year than their salary (where they themselves are paying via PAYE) then they pay for themselves, benefit the country, and chase down tax dodgers.
    I should think if HMRC employed  someone on 50k they would get that back in a week.
    Imagine a phone call to Rob Lees mate.
    The tax inspector saying £14000 seems quite low , are there a few jobs you've accidentally forgot about?
    Have another look at your accounts or we could always look at the account in detail for you.
    I have some experience around this from a professional point of view and I think the general public would be shocked at just how easy it is, and how much tax can be avoided before HMRC will pursue a criminal case. Or even follow up with civil penalties.

    There are lots of people out there who, to my certain knowledge, have paid no income tax for years. Like, literally not made any declarations of any earnings whatsoever from one year to the next.

    In a not unrelated point, the staffing numbers of HMRC is very significantly less than in 2010.
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    R0TW said:
    Had a fair amount of work done on my place.
    Sorry, but if someone is going to save me 15k by accepting cash, then I am all over it.
    There are not many about who wouldn’t be.
    Can’t blame anyone for taking the discount, even if the know it’s aiding a crime. 

    Doesn’t make the person offering it right though. 
    Would you have the same view about buying stolen goods that are offered to you at a knock down price? I'm playing Devil's advocate a bit but it's an interesting point. At what stage does the benefit of the discount offered override ones moral and legal obligation?

    For example @RTOW and the £15k "discount" is clearly involved in tax fraud, by any definition, certainly HMRC's. That would go a long way to paying for a hospital porter for a year, for example, but for them that was an amount that was well beyond their personal tipping point. And they won't be alone in that on here. 
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    Plenty of car wash places around. 
    I use the one opposite Hewitts farm by the golf course. 
    Every car wash I've used is cash only  so I'm guessing that they also avoid a certain amount of Tax.
    But compared to what the super rich get away with its nothing really 
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    A similar argument is used with climate issues.
    If some countries pollute a lot why should we as a country, or as individuals bother to do anything at all?
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    seth plum said:
    A similar argument is used with climate issues.
    If some countries pollute a lot why should we as a country, or as individuals bother to do anything at all?
    Comparing climate change with a car wash not declaring tax is a bit of a stretch even for you.
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    clb74 said:
    seth plum said:
    That is why we need effective tax inspectors.
    If they recover more back taxes per year than their salary (where they themselves are paying via PAYE) then they pay for themselves, benefit the country, and chase down tax dodgers.
    I should think if HMRC employed  someone on 50k they would get that back in a week.
    Imagine a phone call to Rob Lees mate.
    The tax inspector saying £14000 seems quite low , are there a few jobs you've accidentally forgot about?
    Have another look at your accounts or we could always look at the account in detail for you.
    I have some experience around this from a professional point of view and I think the general public would be shocked at just how easy it is, and how much tax can be avoided before HMRC will pursue a criminal case. Or even follow up with civil penalties.

    There are lots of people out there who, to my certain knowledge, have paid no income tax for years. Like, literally not made any declarations of any earnings whatsoever from one year to the next.

    In a not unrelated point, the staffing numbers of HMRC is very significantly less than in 2010.
    Thing is.
    I know someone in their early 70s , never paid a penny tax.
    Not on the system.
    Been ill the last couple of years, but won't get in contact with the council.
    Terrified they will put him jail.
    Lived off his bit of savings the last couple of years, but that's running out.
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    seth plum said:
    A similar argument is used with climate issues.
    If some countries pollute a lot why should we as a country, or as individuals bother to do anything at all?
    Comparing climate change with a car wash not declaring tax is a bit of a stretch even for you.
    I appreciate that is your opinion, but I believe my comparison isn’t a stretch at all, but reasonable, because I see it as being about mindset.
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    seth plum said:
    seth plum said:
    A similar argument is used with climate issues.
    If some countries pollute a lot why should we as a country, or as individuals bother to do anything at all?
    Comparing climate change with a car wash not declaring tax is a bit of a stretch even for you.
    I appreciate that is your opinion, but I believe my comparison isn’t a stretch at all, but reasonable, because I see it as being about mindset.
    Fair enough. 
    Let's leave it there rather than clog up the thread.
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    You lot would be apopletic if you lived abroad...
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    Huskaris said:
    If you think that it's ok for you to be complicit in defrauding HMRC of revenue, you're part of the problem in this country. 

    If you think that "because rich people and big companies" avoid tax in this country you're deliberately trying to justify the unjustifiable with whataboutery.

    I'd throw the book at all of them, and I'm glad so many of them struggled through COVID because they'd been defrauding HMRC for years when they'd been doing cash in hand work and under declaring.

    It's not a victimless crime. I don't want to hear the opinions from anyone who evades tax on the state of the country, I'd even go so far as to say they should be stripped of the vote and the right to access public services. They're not a part of society as they have violated the social contract. 

    If everyone evaded tax the country would be completely fucked, so why do you have the right?
    If that's aimed at me I never said I had the right. 

    Left school at 16
    Retired at 59.
    43 years of working under the PAYE Tax system. 
    Never worked self employed in my lifetime. 
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