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VAR to be trialled in Prem

paulie8290paulie8290
in Other Football and Sports
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11661/11490710/premier-league-to-trial-var-this-season

Really dont understand the point of this.

Its being used but no contact with match officials and VAR officials.

I dont get how that is a trial.
Basically a few people in heathrow will be watching the games.

Its being used in the league cup at prem grounds, with contact with officials, surely that trial is good enough
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Comments

  • Covered_End_LadCovered_End_Lad
    It is a strange one, I liked the idea when it first came about - seemed a positive way to stop bad refereeing decisions ruining a game. However, the use of VAR at the WC was a total mess and will have put a lot of people, myself included, off the idea.
  • CallumcafcCallumcafc
    It’s something I suppose. If they don’t have it next season, I will start to wonder...
  • Dazzler21Dazzler21
    edited September 2018
    I felt it worked well enough at the WC, maybe they could look into understand how to create continuity in review scenarios?
  • StarinnaddickStarinnaddick
    Rothko said:

    Premier League have dropped a bollock here, they went with the over reaction pre World Cup from the dinosaurs like Shearer etc, and held back.

    It worked an absolute gem at the World Cup, and they look on the wrong side of history now

    It worked in certain areas and not in others. In most cases it's still someones opinion and not clear cut .
  • BigRedEvilBigRedEvil
    Surely this makes the competition unfair? Either all games get var or none imo
  • LincsaddickLincsaddick
    typical English compromise .. either do it properly (as in the last World Cup) or don't bother .. said it before on here, the Prem is a multi billion pound industry and owners, managers and players need the best technology to get the right result .. it's gone well
    beyond the theory that 'over a season, errors and bad luck even out'
  • CallumcafcCallumcafc
    edited September 2018
    Already seen it correct multiple wrong decisions across Germany, Spain, Italy, Portugal, France and the Netherlands this season.

    We truly are the dinosaur league.
  • ChizzChizz
    It's not a trial, it's a test.

    It's only being tested, to see how the logistics hold up to several, simultaneous matches. Although it's very rare, there can be as many as ten, simultaneous matches in the Premier League.

    On the afternoon of the "trial", there are seven Premier League matches, five of them simultaneous. I think it makes a lot of sense to test the robustness of the technology and architecture before it goes live.
  • paulie8290paulie8290
    Chizz said:

    It's not a trial, it's a test.

    It's only being tested, to see how the logistics hold up to several, simultaneous matches. Although it's very rare, there can be as many as ten, simultaneous matches in the Premier League.

    On the afternoon of the "trial", there are seven Premier League matches, five of them simultaneous. I think it makes a lot of sense to test the robustness of the technology and architecture before it goes live.

    But they did it last week with 4 games all kicking off at the same time all using VAR, and able to communicate with ref

    I just dont understand what they will gain from testing without communicating with the ref.

    If there are enough of them in the room then watching the games wont be an issue, the issue will be in the communication thats what they need to test
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  • ChizzChizz
    paulie8290 said:

    Chizz said:

    It's not a trial, it's a test.

    It's only being tested, to see how the logistics hold up to several, simultaneous matches. Although it's very rare, there can be as many as ten, simultaneous matches in the Premier League.

    On the afternoon of the "trial", there are seven Premier League matches, five of them simultaneous. I think it makes a lot of sense to test the robustness of the technology and architecture before it goes live.

    But they did it last week with 4 games all kicking off at the same time all using VAR, and able to communicate with ref

    I just dont understand what they will gain from testing without communicating with the ref.

    If there are enough of them in the room then watching the games wont be an issue, the issue will be in the communication thats what they need to test
    I thought the League Cup trial was only for matches where there were only three simultaneous matches. The games at Leicester, Brighton and Fulham and one more the next day. I guess the thinking is that the Premier League want to see that several (at least five) matches can be simultaneously reviewed before it goes live.

    I don't know whether it's ever been used on that many simultaneous matches anywhere. It seems sensible to me.
  • johnnybev1987johnnybev1987
    I think getting more correct decisions on the spot is a positive, the fine margins which could cause relegation and sides to go down and the money at stake they need to try to get as near to perfect as possible.

    The initial reaction was not good but if it can be tweaked a bit, where the ref isn't really making the big decisions i am all for it. Most other sports have some form of equipment to aid umpires/ refs so why not footy?
  • rananegrarananegra
    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL
  • RossRoss
    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
  • ForeverAddicktedForeverAddickted
    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    You could say the same about Goal Line Technology

    The trouble with VAR is the fact that its going to be difficult to install all the cameras needed at grounds like Accrington etc.
  • ChizzChizz
    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
  • RossRoss
    ForeverAddickted said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    You could say the same about Goal Line Technology

    The trouble with VAR is the fact that its going to be difficult to install all the cameras needed at grounds like Accrington etc.
    True. But then where is the fairness? Imagine if VAR in the World Cup was only in the final, and a team didn't get there because of a decision didn't go their way in the semi final where there wasn't VAR.

    If it is going to be used in a competition it either has to be used in all matches or not at all.
  • RossRoss
    edited September 2018
    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
    See my reply above, but ultimately the conditions a match are played in are a moot point. The only consistency should be the rules, which relate to number of players on a team, the rule book, and the officiating team. If one match has 3 officials (4 with the 4th official), but another has 9, more errors can be noticed and decisions can be made. That is unfair to the teams that are not being able to play with VAR being present. Key decisions could be missed which mean they could end up in the next round. In your example Spurs and Watford would be disadvantaged as Spurs could have a clear penalty decision ruled out which would mean they could advance through to the next round.

    Look at the Partick Thistle match the other day. They scored a perfectly legitimate goal which was not given. Had goal line technology been present it would have been, and could have given them an extra goal for goal difference meaning they escape relegation or qualify for Europe come the end of the season. Surely it is the same argument with VAR?
  • ChizzChizz
    Ross said:

    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
    See my reply above, but ultimately the conditions a match are played in are a moot point. The only consistency should be the rules, which relate to number of players on a team, the rule book, and the officiating team. If one match has 3 officials (4 with the 4th official), but another has 9, more errors can be noticed and decisions can be made. That is unfair to the teams that are not being able to play with VAR being present. Key decisions could be missed which mean they could end up in the next round. In your example Spurs and Watford would be disadvantaged as Spurs could have a clear penalty decision ruled out which would mean they could advance through to the next round.

    Look at the Partick Thistle match the other day. They scored a perfectly legitimate goal which was not given. Had goal line technology been present it would have been, and could have given them an extra goal for goal difference meaning they escape relegation or qualify for Europe come the end of the season. Surely it is the same argument with VAR?
    Sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all.
  • FumbluffFumbluff
    Spurs or Watford are more at risk of being fisted by useless officials whereas Everton and Southampton are less at risk.
    To argue otherwise would defeat the purpose of VAR in the first place shirley...
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  • RossRoss
    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
    See my reply above, but ultimately the conditions a match are played in are a moot point. The only consistency should be the rules, which relate to number of players on a team, the rule book, and the officiating team. If one match has 3 officials (4 with the 4th official), but another has 9, more errors can be noticed and decisions can be made. That is unfair to the teams that are not being able to play with VAR being present. Key decisions could be missed which mean they could end up in the next round. In your example Spurs and Watford would be disadvantaged as Spurs could have a clear penalty decision ruled out which would mean they could advance through to the next round.

    Look at the Partick Thistle match the other day. They scored a perfectly legitimate goal which was not given. Had goal line technology been present it would have been, and could have given them an extra goal for goal difference meaning they escape relegation or qualify for Europe come the end of the season. Surely it is the same argument with VAR?
    Sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all.
    Let's replace Spurs or Watford with Charlton.

    91st minute. Clear penalty. Not given. If VAR was there it would have been given.

    You'd be perfectly happy with that because both teams didn't have the use of VAR?
  • paulie8290paulie8290
    Ross said:

    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
    See my reply above, but ultimately the conditions a match are played in are a moot point. The only consistency should be the rules, which relate to number of players on a team, the rule book, and the officiating team. If one match has 3 officials (4 with the 4th official), but another has 9, more errors can be noticed and decisions can be made. That is unfair to the teams that are not being able to play with VAR being present. Key decisions could be missed which mean they could end up in the next round. In your example Spurs and Watford would be disadvantaged as Spurs could have a clear penalty decision ruled out which would mean they could advance through to the next round.

    Look at the Partick Thistle match the other day. They scored a perfectly legitimate goal which was not given. Had goal line technology been present it would have been, and could have given them an extra goal for goal difference meaning they escape relegation or qualify for Europe come the end of the season. Surely it is the same argument with VAR?
    Sorry, that doesn't make any sense at all.
    Let's replace Spurs or Watford with Charlton.

    91st minute. Clear penalty. Not given. If VAR was there it would have been given.

    You'd be perfectly happy with that because both teams didn't have the use of VAR?
    Or 88th minute penalty given when it was not a foul
  • RothkoRothko
    Doubt you'll see GLT outside the top divisions, the install is expensive, but the floodlighting requirements are massive, and most of the grounds in L1 & L2 couldn't do it, or afford that.
  • RossRoss
    Rothko said:

    Doubt you'll see GLT outside the top divisions, the install is expensive, but the floodlighting requirements are massive, and most of the grounds in L1 & L2 couldn't do it, or afford that.

    Planning permission aside (which could of course be an issue), surely the FA/EFL could pay for installation?
  • RothkoRothko
    You would need to at least triple the power at most grounds in L1 and L2 (including the Valley), so you could get the FA to spend money on that, or you could get the FA to spend money on 3G pitches which are more needed in communities.
  • RossRoss
    Rothko said:

    You would need to at least triple the power at most grounds in L1 and L2 (including the Valley), so you could get the FA to spend money on that, or you could get the FA to spend money on 3G pitches which are more needed in communities.

    Fair point.
  • ForeverAddicktedForeverAddickted
    Ross said:

    Rothko said:

    Doubt you'll see GLT outside the top divisions, the install is expensive, but the floodlighting requirements are massive, and most of the grounds in L1 & L2 couldn't do it, or afford that.

    Planning permission aside (which could of course be an issue), surely the FA/EFL could pay for installation?
    Yeaaaa dont ever see that happening
  • killerandflashkillerandflash
    Trying to remember VAR at the World Cup, my recollection is that the human element was just as important as the technology, and there were still arguments when the VAR officials intervened or didn't intervene, as a lot rested on the interpretation of whether the "error" was clear and obvious or open to interpretation.

    It's not as if every penalty decision is a clear cut foul or no foul, sometimes there's a slight touch, and it then comes down to interpretation whether that's enough "for the player to go down" or not. Similarly the rule on handball offences allows interpretation by the officials, rather than being something that technology can decide.
  • Dazzler21Dazzler21
    paulie8290 said:

    Chizz said:

    It's not a trial, it's a test.

    It's only being tested, to see how the logistics hold up to several, simultaneous matches. Although it's very rare, there can be as many as ten, simultaneous matches in the Premier League.

    On the afternoon of the "trial", there are seven Premier League matches, five of them simultaneous. I think it makes a lot of sense to test the robustness of the technology and architecture before it goes live.

    But they did it last week with 4 games all kicking off at the same time
    4 is not 8. If they're load testing it makes sense.
  • stevexreevestevexreeve
    Chizz said:

    Ross said:

    rananegra said:

    I don't think things do even out over the course of a season. It would be interesting to see if there was any way of working that out; I can see that you can't have it at all levels because of the cost, but that's really no excuse in the PL

    Surely the introduction of goal line technology needs to be at all levels (down to League Two at least) before VAR would be introduced outside of the Prem.

    However, if they're going to use VAR in a few League Cup games, surely it needs to be used in all in the interest of fairness?
    I am not sure I fully follow this argument. While it's better to have the same conditions for every match in the competition, why should it matter if one match has VAR and another doesn't?

    Matches are played on different days, at different times, in different weather, under natural light or floodlights, at different altitudes, with different sized crowds. But, in each match, both teams have the same conditions.

    Why would it be "unfair" for the Everton v Southampton match to have VAR and the Tottenham v Watford match not? And which team or teams would be disadvantaged?
    When incidents are reviewed over and over again through VAR, the "not enough for me" line inevitably moves according to the importance of the game.

    If Tottenham and Everton(?) were both competing for a place in the champions league and only one of the games could be VAR, both clubs would fight quite strongly to have it. If Southampton and Watford were facing relegation they would both fight not to have it1

    Without VAR an incident is a penalty only if the referee sees it and has no doubt!

    With VAR, the "not enough for me" threshold will be much lower and any sort of potential contact will be judged a penalty.

    VAR is bound to favour the better team!

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