Refereeing Standards

93Addick

Can see this thread going down like a led balloon....

I think most agree that the refereeing standards are getting consistently poorer, yet the media always seem to have the backs of the referees. An example of this is the England v Spain Sky Sports player ratings where none other than Danny Mills criticises Eric Dier for his tackle on Sergio Ramos dir his trailing back leg?? Surely Danny understands the biomechanics of a slide tackle and that a trailing leg can cause no damage virtually all the time.

My biggest issue with this is that the amateur referees decisions have deterioted along with this. Making the game almost impossible to play and enjoy like before. Watching a Saturday League game in the Kent County League the ref made it all about him and single handedly ruined the game. At the end when confronted by a neutral he belittled all points made saying “if you’re not a referee I don’t care of your opinion”. But why is it when the laws haven’t changed the decisions have.

Do we have any referees, players or even people who just enjoy watching the game who feel this has changed for the better?

What laws would you realistically like to see be added into the game?

Finally, can anyone seeing this changing and or keep going on this downwards (subjective) spiral?

MuttleyCAFC

As a coach - I'd like to see games timed like in Rugby which would kill time wasting. I'd also like a change to the laws where if the ball hits a hand, it is handball. Refs have proved they are incapable of applying the current law properly and there is far too much inconsistency. If they changed the law, everybody would know where they stand.

golfaddick

All refs should be ex-pros. Nothing wrong with Dier's tackle last night - took the ball cleanly & his follow through caught the man. What was he supposed to do......stop in mid slide ?? Its a contact sport ffs !

Simonsen

Refs are hamstrung by guidelines (this and that, that are mandatory card offences) and are being brought up in a system that encourages automatens and discourages common sense.

The example of Dier's tackle has been cited; almost every ref now would yellow card Dier because that's the guideline. Years ago, all I heard was "there's no consistency" but that was preferable because it meant quite a few refs let quite a lot go. It made for better watching (but maybe not for better playing... especially at Sunday morning level!)

Refs are victims of the system and the ones we see at pro level have ticked all the boxes. Some of those boxes are good; fitness being the most obvious but some are not.

But on balance, given that they preside over a group of blokes who would happily cheat their own grandmothers, I think they're pretty good. I've reffed about a dozen games and played in a few hundred....and whilst I got good marks, it was bloody hard. I wouldn't want to ref a game these days....

Hartleypete

What I don't really understand is that the assistant referees hardly make a decision. Sometimes a few yards away whereas the ref from 30 yards makes a call that often is wrong.

Starinnaddick

If you want to see a real referee in action don't miss our game on Saturday. Lol

Lincsaddick

remember when most of us 'older generation' started watching the game, players could (and did) kick the living bejesus out of one another yet somehow stayed within the laws as they were interpreted at that time and were seemingly only pulled up for a foul if the offence was akin to attempted murder (excuse my exaggeration) ..
the game was played on softer slower pitches and players were generally nowhere near as fit and quick as they are now.

With laws more stringently applied, players more prone to take a dive, a fast and furious game and pressure from the 'media', referees nowadays have a very hard job .. video 'refereeing' will help and linesmen/asst refs should be encouraged to be more proactive as they are in Rugby, although, given that the top referees seem to have big egos and are very much 'I'm in charge', the latter might not go down too well.

I would say that generally referring standards are not too bad but of course, the lower down the leagues you go, the more the standard drops. Recently I have seen a few poor decisions but generally the officials get it right. The intro of technology will help, but it may well apply at Old Trafford and Stamford Bridge, will it be in use at Accrington on a cold and windy December Tuesday evening ?

Valiantphil

New Law - a yellow card for time wasting automatically adds 5 minutes extra.

It would stop this annoying occurrence in an instant.

Simonsen

Hartleypete said:

What I don't really understand is that the assistant referees hardly make a decision. Sometimes a few yards away whereas the ref from 30 yards makes a call that often is wrong.

Might be pre-match instruction from the ref or another general guideline.

It's a completely different scenario but I was always glad as a club linesman, that I wasn't allowed to interfere apart from offside and ball in/out of play. It was thankless enough as it was!

thenewbie

The sheer amount of abuse that referees get at all levels is a factor I think. Many potentially good to great referees get fed up with being sworn at and abused by players for absolutely correct decisions and opinionated bystanders and pack it in (understandably imo). To keep at it week in week out and with even more pressure the higher you get takes a very certain mindset - stubborn and not going to be swayed by others... Regardless of whether said other may actually be right.

paulbaconsarnie

Valiantphil said:

New Law - a yellow card for time wasting automatically adds 5 minutes extra.

It would stop this annoying occurrence in an instant.

Open to even more abuse.
The team losing on 89 minutes would just take yellows so they had more time to equalise.

JoshrewCAFC

My mate who supports Arsenal (but watches Charlton a fair amount) was in the away section when Coventry visited the other week (with a Coventry mate) He said he was a neutral but obviously enjoyed aast minute winner.

People on here said the ref was crap that game but he said he was fine.

Your perspective changes your views on refs. Watch some neutral games in our league then decide if you think the refs are bad.

I'd say some definitely have bads games but not sure it's as bad as we've been moaning about this season.

Chippycafc

Simonsen said:

Refs are hamstrung by guidelines (this and that, that are mandatory card offences) and are being brought up in a system that encourages automatens and discourages common sense.

The example of Dier's tackle has been cited; almost every ref now would yellow card Dier because that's the guideline. Years ago, all I heard was "there's no consistency" but that was preferable because it meant quite a few refs let quite a lot go. It made for better watching (but maybe not for better playing... especially at Sunday morning level!)

Refs are victims of the system and the ones we see at pro level have ticked all the boxes. Some of those boxes are good; fitness being the most obvious but some are not.

But on balance, given that they preside over a group of blokes who would happily cheat their own grandmothers, I think they're pretty good. I've reffed about a dozen games and played in a few hundred....and whilst I got good marks, it was bloody hard. I wouldn't want to ref a game these days....

Wandered why you stick up for refs at HT... Lol...

MuttleyCAFC

JoshrewCAFC said:

My mate who supports Arsenal (but watches Charlton a fair amount) was in the away section when Coventry visited the other week (with a Coventry mate) He said he was a neutral but obviously enjoyed aast minute winner.

People on here said the ref was crap that game but he said he was fine.

Your perspective changes your views on refs. Watch some neutral games in our league then decide if you think the refs are bad.

I'd say some definitely have bads games but not sure it's as bad as we've been moaning about this season.

I thought he was fine. I didn't blame him.

seth plum

I often thing it would help if referees were complete and utter bastards, as long as they're neutral.
Any abuse or dissent should see immediate yellow and red cards, and if things get extreme then abandoned matches.
Until the players learn to accept the referee like the state of the pitch, or the weather, they will have to learn the hard way.
The pitch can be crap, the weather can be crap, and the referee can be crap...but then again so can the players.

newyorkaddick

I regularly referee my kids’ matches on a Sunday morning (at U10 and U12 level) - it gives an insight into just how damned hard it is even at that level, so can’t imagine how hard it is to referee professional matches at high speed and with players constantly in your ear.

Would recommend anyone who criticises referees to give it a try themselves for perspective.

foresthillred

I am a ref, but also played at a low-ish level for over thirty years. That playing experience is really important in my opinion, as it gives the ref an insight into how players are thinking, what is/isn't a foul, what cheating bastards players can be, and allows for a good level of communication with players (I will give as good as I get verbally).

I think all referees should be ex-players, not necessarily to even a semi-pro standard, but definitely competitive football. Too many of the fast-tracked refs are like robots in applying the laws of the game and seldom apply any common sense, I think because they have never played the game. It doesn't help that they are governed at County and national level by a bunch of incredibly self important pricks. Hence the reason I very seldom put a caution or sending -off through to the FA unless I think a player is likely to be a danger to others.

The thing I would like to change is to see refs give interviews to explain their decisions. I always talk to the players and managers after a game to explain any decisions they are disputing and it really does help build a healthy relationship.

I don't think refereeing in the professional game has become any worse. The game has become a lot faster, there are many more cameras with all sorts of angles at games, and players have become much better at the sort of snidey cheating that makes the ref's job almost impossible.

MuttleyCAFC

foresthillred said:

I am a ref, but also played at a low-ish level for over thirty years. That playing experience is really important in my opinion, as it gives the ref an insight into how players are thinking, what is/isn't a foul, what cheating bastards players can be, and allows for a good level of communication with players (I will give as good as I get verbally).

I think all referees should be ex-players, not necessarily to even a semi-pro standard, but definitely competitive football. Too many of the fast-tracked refs are like robots in applying the laws of the game and seldom apply any common sense, I think because they have never played the game. It doesn't help that they are governed at County and national level by a bunch of incredibly self important pricks. Hence the reason I very seldom put a caution or sending -off through to the FA unless I think a player is likely to be a danger to others.

The thing I would like to change is to see refs give interviews to explain their decisions. I always talk to the players and managers after a game to explain any decisions they are disputing and it really does help build a healthy relationship.

I don't think refereeing in the professional game has become any worse. The game has become a lot faster, there are many more cameras with all sorts of angles at games, and players have become much better at the sort of snidey cheating that makes the ref's job almost impossible.

This is my view. As you go up in level as a player the foul play is less obvious. When you are clattered by an 18 stone cave man on Hackney marshes, it is obvious, When you are having your ankles nibbled at in midfield playing at a higher level it is less obvious to the ref. When you know what is going on, you can better read what you see.

I appreciate some refs can still be good and understand the game but a lot can't and I think I can tell the difference between those that played and those that didn't when I watch games. Refs give the boring line that it has been tried. But of course it has been tried in the wrong way. If you wanted to improve quality, you would try to find the right way, but of course refs are defensive. There are some excellent refs and some of them get slagged of because football is partisan, but there are too many refs who are poor.

Redrobo

I don’t actually agree with the premise that the game has got less enjoyable. The demise of the hacker that has allowed gifted players to shine through is the best thing to ever happen in football.

The fact that Danny Mills gets it that the game has changed is most welcome. You have to be in control when making a tackle. Getting the ball is irrelevant. Dier’s tackle was for me borderline. But if you were the coach, would you want him attempting it? Poor decision by Dier for me.

As for amateur refs not being very good, just go and watch the coaches run the line in youth matches. They haven’t a clue on the off side rules.

Listen to the moans about handball, double jeopardy on a pen. If the coaches and young players don’t understand the laws, it is hardly surprising that so many think the refs are poor!

My son used to moan about refs, so he went on a course to become one. I had to go with him because of his age. Very enlightening it was too. The FA should offer all clubs the opportunity to at least hear an overview of the role, it could only help.

seth plum

Redrobo said:

I don’t actually agree with the premise that the game has got less enjoyable. The demise of the hacker that has allowed gifted players to shine through is the best thing to ever happen in football.

The fact that Danny Mills gets it that the game has changed is most welcome. You have to be in control when making a tackle. Getting the ball is irrelevant. Dier’s tackle was for me borderline. But if you were the coach, would you want him attempting it? Poor decision by Dier for me.

As for amateur refs not being very good, just go and watch the coaches run the line in youth matches. They haven’t a clue on the off side rules.

Listen to the moans about handball, double jeopardy on a pen. If the coaches and young players don’t understand the laws, it is hardly surprising that so many think the refs are poor!

My son used to moan about refs, so he went on a course to become one. I had to go with him because of his age. Very enlightening it was too. The FA should offer all clubs the opportunity to at least hear an overview of the role, it could only help.

The truth is that very very few coaches, managers or players, certainly fans, pundits and commentators too, have actually even read the laws of football. It is a pretty simple game and everybody thinks they know the laws but they have not actually read them.
A favourite example of mine is that the ball does not necessarily have to be played forward for a player to be offside. If you don't believe me, look up the offside law and tell me where I'm wrong.

Mendonca In Asdas

The fella who is reffing us on Saturday might have a blinding game, he might not, based on his last performance here, we might as well chuck the game and do us all a favour.

Saying that i hate players crowding round ref's and shouting in their face , however crap they are at their job , no one deserves that level of abuse , if i was a ref and players did that i'd send them off, we need more mutual respect somehow in the game, but that comes with better decision making be it with the aid of technology.

Rudders22

It will be interesting to see how how he referees this game? Wether it is refereed "normally" or wether "majority of his decisions go one way or the other".

newyorkaddick

seth plum said:

Redrobo said:

I don’t actually agree with the premise that the game has got less enjoyable. The demise of the hacker that has allowed gifted players to shine through is the best thing to ever happen in football.

The fact that Danny Mills gets it that the game has changed is most welcome. You have to be in control when making a tackle. Getting the ball is irrelevant. Dier’s tackle was for me borderline. But if you were the coach, would you want him attempting it? Poor decision by Dier for me.

As for amateur refs not being very good, just go and watch the coaches run the line in youth matches. They haven’t a clue on the off side rules.

Listen to the moans about handball, double jeopardy on a pen. If the coaches and young players don’t understand the laws, it is hardly surprising that so many think the refs are poor!

My son used to moan about refs, so he went on a course to become one. I had to go with him because of his age. Very enlightening it was too. The FA should offer all clubs the opportunity to at least hear an overview of the role, it could only help.

The truth is that very very few coaches, managers or players, certainly fans, pundits and commentators too, have actually even read the laws of football. It is a pretty simple game and everybody thinks they know the laws but they have not actually read them.
A favourite example of mine is that the ball does not necessarily have to be played forward for a player to be offside. If you don't believe me, look up the offside law and tell me where I'm wrong.

A player is in an offside position if nearer to the opponent’s goal line as both the ball and the second last opponent.

Since you can’t be closer to the goal line than the ball if played backwards to you, by definition the ball has to be played forwards.

MuttleyCAFC

I'd help officials by saying any marginal offsides are not offsides.

soapboxsam

1. Twice in a home game recently Pearce stepped into his area and played the ball from a goal kick. The ref quite rightly made the keeper retake it (as is the rule) if a forward closes down a short goal kick what advantage does he get if the defenders steps inside the area to avert the danger ?

Solution
A free kick to the attacking side where the offence occurred.

2. A ball is going out of play slowly behind the defender so he leans into the attacker going away from the ball and obstructs the attacker.
No problem if defender and ball go straight and he shields the ball.

Solution.
A free kick to attacking team where offence takes place.

3. The winning team in added time puts on a sub with 10 seconds to go of the 5 minutes allocated for tactical reasons.

Solution
Add another minute on. Not the 30 seconds which I believe is the allocated time.

hoof_it_up_to_benty

As you drop down the leagues you get poorer referees and poorer players.

soapboxsam

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

As you drop down the leagues you get poorer referees and poorer players.

And end up refereeing at the Valley !

Greenie

I wouldn't want to be a ref, at any level.
As they are human they can have good days and bad days.
I wish many refs would just wait a spilt second when blowing their whistle, just to see if there is an advantage. The amount of whistle happy refs in the pro game is alarming.
Also many rules are ignored, foul throws wind me up, but are mostly ignored, same as the six second rule when the keeper picks the ball up, its a law of the game, so enforce it.
Also all this bollocks when a player gets injured and they kick the ball out, its only supposed tot be for a head injury, if a player deliberately kicks a ball out of play then he should be carded. Its down to the ref to stop the play, not the players.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/12147935/The-football-rules-that-drive-us-mad-and-must-be-changed.html

hoof_it_up_to_benty

Greenie said:

I wouldn't want to be a ref, at any level.
As they are human they can have good days and bad days.
I wish many refs would just wait a spilt second when blowing their whistle, just to see if there is an advantage. The amount of whistle happy refs in the pro game is alarming.
Also many rules are ignored, foul throws wind me up, but are mostly ignored, same as the six second rule when the keeper picks the ball up, its a law of the game, so enforce it.
Also all this bollocks when a player gets injured and they kick the ball out, its only supposed tot be for a head injury, if a player deliberately kicks a ball out of play then he should be carded. Its down to the ref to stop the play, not the players.


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/12147935/The-football-rules-that-drive-us-mad-and-must-be-changed.html

Refs make mistakes like players and some have very irritating personalities - the media are far too critical of them. There's nothing more stupid than pundits criticising a referee after they've had the benefit of watching a replay 27 times.

seth plum

newyorkaddick said:

seth plum said:

Redrobo said:

I don’t actually agree with the premise that the game has got less enjoyable. The demise of the hacker that has allowed gifted players to shine through is the best thing to ever happen in football.

The fact that Danny Mills gets it that the game has changed is most welcome. You have to be in control when making a tackle. Getting the ball is irrelevant. Dier’s tackle was for me borderline. But if you were the coach, would you want him attempting it? Poor decision by Dier for me.

As for amateur refs not being very good, just go and watch the coaches run the line in youth matches. They haven’t a clue on the off side rules.

Listen to the moans about handball, double jeopardy on a pen. If the coaches and young players don’t understand the laws, it is hardly surprising that so many think the refs are poor!

My son used to moan about refs, so he went on a course to become one. I had to go with him because of his age. Very enlightening it was too. The FA should offer all clubs the opportunity to at least hear an overview of the role, it could only help.

The truth is that very very few coaches, managers or players, certainly fans, pundits and commentators too, have actually even read the laws of football. It is a pretty simple game and everybody thinks they know the laws but they have not actually read them.
A favourite example of mine is that the ball does not necessarily have to be played forward for a player to be offside. If you don't believe me, look up the offside law and tell me where I'm wrong.

A player is in an offside position if nearer to the opponent’s goal line as both the ball and the second last opponent.

Since you can’t be closer to the goal line than the ball if played backwards to you, by definition the ball has to be played forwards.

Sorry to disagree.
A player can be in the opponents half, with one opponent between them and the goal line, in front of the ball, and interfering with play and seeking to gain an advantage when the ball is played. Not necessari!h played forward.
A player jumping up and down in front of a goalkeeper following a short corner could be a case in point.

MuttleyCAFC

In recognition of the great footballer Bobby Charlton, any team sharing his surname should receive preferential treatment from the referee.