The part-time pilot who flew Emiliano Sala from France to Wales before crashing into the Channel made 'basic errors' before take-off, it was revealed today.
David Ibbotson was also not allowed to take paying passengers because he only had a private licence - not a commercial one - and didn't have the qualifications to fly in bad weather but took their plane into a winter storm, it has also emerged.
One image shows how Ibbotson apparently incorrectly filled in the plane's licence number on the form, writing N246DB instead of N264DB.
The pilot also reportedly used Visual Flight Rules (VFR) instead of Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
This means his qualifications only allowed him to fly at night if conditions were clear without any bad weather.
The part-time pilot who flew Emiliano Sala from France to Wales before crashing into the Channel made 'basic errors' before take-off, it was revealed today.
David Ibbotson was also not allowed to take paying passengers because he only had a private licence - not a commercial one - and didn't have the qualifications to fly in bad weather but took their plane into a winter storm, it has also emerged.
One image shows how Ibbotson apparently incorrectly filled in the plane's licence number on the form, writing N246DB instead of N264DB.
The pilot also reportedly used Visual Flight Rules (VFR) instead of Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
This means his qualifications only allowed him to fly at night if conditions were clear without any bad weather.
How did Ibottson think flying through that was a good idea?!?
It appears Willie McKay is not even a registered agent, but was "helping his son" - something Samuels clearly missed in his scathing report on Cardiff's behaviour.
And while I think it should not be beyond the capabilities of any adult to book themselves a flight (no disrespect to Sala), what is the agent doing for his £1.5 million if he isn't sorting out this sort of thing?
McKay really does seem to live up to the worst stereotype of the football agent.
Saw this article the other day, thought it was excellent, really shows the human side behind the tragedy rather than the shock "Who's to blame, will Cardiff pay up" angle (which, don't get me wrong, are important points too).
It appears Willie McKay is not even a registered agent, but was "helping his son" - something Samuels clearly missed in his scathing report on Cardiff's behaviour.
And while I think it should not be beyond the capabilities of any adult to book themselves a flight (no disrespect to Sala), what is the agent doing for his £1.5 million if he isn't sorting out this sort of thing?
McKay really does seem to live up to the worst stereotype of the football agent.
Cardiff have said they offered him a normal passenger jet flight but he'd made other arrangements, i.e. McKay's private plane.
It appears Willie McKay is not even a registered agent, but was "helping his son" - something Samuels clearly missed in his scathing report on Cardiff's behaviour.
And while I think it should not be beyond the capabilities of any adult to book themselves a flight (no disrespect to Sala), what is the agent doing for his £1.5 million if he isn't sorting out this sort of thing?
McKay really does seem to live up to the worst stereotype of the football agent.
I am not sure about this, but is he only not a "registered agent" because he is suspended? He certainly has been suspended.
The pilots' forum is basically agreed that he threw the other Dave under the bus there by exposing that it was a paid for flight, and the other Dave (Henderson) knowingly let a pilot without sufficient professional credentials and paperwork operate that flight. They speculate that Ibbotson badly needed the money and would have been under great pressure to complete the flight. McKay basically hopes the attention will then be diverted to Henderson. But the pilots are having none of it, they basically ask the same question as you, WTF was he doing for his money. Some, who seem to have significant experience with football agents assert that McKay was hardly a newcomer to the world of private flights.
They are talking a lot about the unsafe grey area of private flights in small aircraft and how the legislation is either ignored or too weak. Why does this grey area exist? Cost, of course, huge savings.
They seem to generally agree that that flight, at that time of night, in that weather, should have been minimum twin engine, and two pilots. Many say they would not have taken off themselves without both. But they also ask, how on earth does the ordinary punter, a footballer, know this. They don't accept that McKay is an ordinary punter.
It appears Willie McKay is not even a registered agent, but was "helping his son" - something Samuels clearly missed in his scathing report on Cardiff's behaviour.
And while I think it should not be beyond the capabilities of any adult to book themselves a flight (no disrespect to Sala), what is the agent doing for his £1.5 million if he isn't sorting out this sort of thing?
McKay really does seem to live up to the worst stereotype of the football agent.
Cardiff have said they offered him a normal passenger jet flight but he'd made other arrangements, i.e. McKay's private plane.
Sadly.
If I remember correctly, Cardiff offered to fly him from France to Heathrow and then have a car pick him up and drive him to Cardiff.
But Sala refused and as u say, he said he wanted to make his own way via a quicker more direct way
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
He didn’t have to get to a new place of work that evening. The flight to Heathrow was the next day
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
He didn’t have to get to a new place of work that evening. The flight to Heathrow was the next day
That is not correct. There are no current direct flights from Nantes to LHR at all in the current winter timetables. However, there was a connection through Amsterdam that evening all the way to Cardiff. (I checked it myself just now, it's a regular scheduled AF/KLM flight). It does not sound as though Sala was particularly into flying small planes, he expressed reservations about the plane on boarding. So if either McKay or Cardiff had exercised minimal duty of care and said "look, the weather forecast is a bit rough tonight, especially when we are not sure what private plane is available, so we think you should take that flight through Amsterdam, business class of course, and you'll be safe and pampered". I don't think, from anything I've read, that he would have kicked up a fuss about that.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
depends how long a journey, you can get more food in a larder
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
You'd refuse a lift now in a Lada, in the hope you'd get a lift in a Mercedes the next day? Blimey!
Whichever way you re-phrase it, it comes across as if you're either criticising the player for making a bad decision or gloating that there is no way you would do so. I don't think either of those are appropriate.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
You'd refuse a lift now in a Lada, in the hope you'd get a lift in a Mercedes the next day? Blimey!
Whichever way you re-phrase it, it comes across as if you're either criticising the player for making a bad decision or gloating that there is no way you would do so. I don't think either of those are appropriate.
I’m with Chizz on this Suede highly inappropriate from you, take a long hard look at yourself.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
You'd refuse a lift now in a Lada, in the hope you'd get a lift in a Mercedes the next day? Blimey!
Whichever way you re-phrase it, it comes across as if you're either criticising the player for making a bad decision or gloating that there is no way you would do so. I don't think either of those are appropriate.
I’m with Chizz on this Suede highly inappropriate from you, take a long hard look at yourself.
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
You'd refuse a lift now in a Lada, in the hope you'd get a lift in a Mercedes the next day? Blimey!
Whichever way you re-phrase it, it comes across as if you're either criticising the player for making a bad decision or gloating that there is no way you would do so. I don't think either of those are appropriate.
I’m with Chizz on this Suede highly inappropriate from you, take a long hard look at yourself.
Fair enough....
Damn sight lucky they’ve removed the flag facility..
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
Nor did he say that.
Stop making up complete nonsense.
He was suggesting that he wouldn't have boarded such a small & flimsy looking plane and I agree with him.
I've been on a couple of flights from City Airport, on something like 50 seater planes & they were rather bumpy & worrying.
I know I wouldn't be happy to fly the channel in a very small aircraft, even if you would.
If I was going to say Paris tomorrow I would choose a proper scheduled flight, rather than the plane offered to Sala, even if it was free.
NB I in no way blame Sala, it definitely wasn't his fault, but it was his choice, even if it was a difficult choice.
Again (re @SuedeAdidas remarks) the pilots make the point that Joe Public has no way of assessing what is a safe or not safe small plane. As I understand it, that plane would have been perfectly safe if the flight had been during the day and the weather forecast different, and crucially a suitably qualified pilot at the controls and a second pilot on the plane.
Personally I am not keen on small planes. I remember having to take one back from Wolfsburg to Prague and it stopped off in Kassel in pretty heavy snow. It seemed to me to be flying sideways as it came in to land. But in that case the pilots would say "two engines, two pilots, regular accredited commercial airline, sit back and trust the pros to get you home"
I'm not being funny.....why would you get on that plane if you were a multi million pound footballer?
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Are you suggesting it was Sala's fault for not properly diagnosing the capabilities of the aircraft?
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I'm saying pretty much what I typed......
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
Well that's great for you. And I am both surprised and impressed that you have an intimate and detailed knowledge of how to diagnose an aircraft's airworthiness by simply looking at it. In the dark.
Nor did he say that.
Stop making up complete nonsense.
He was suggesting that he wouldn't have boarded such a small & flimsy looking plane and I agree with him.
I've been on a couple of flights from City Airport, on something like 50 seater planes & they were rather bumpy & worrying.
I know I wouldn't be happy to fly the channel in a very small aircraft, even if you would.
If I was going to say Paris tomorrow I would choose a proper scheduled flight, rather than the plane offered to Sala, even if it was free.
NB I in no way blame Sala, it definitely wasn't his fault, but it was his choice, even if it was a difficult choice.
Again (re @SuedeAdidas remarks) the pilots make the point that Joe Public has no way of assessing what is a safe or not safe small plane. As I understand it, that plane would have been perfectly safe if the flight had been during the day and the weather forecast different, and crucially a suitably qualified pilot at the controls and a second pilot on the plane.
Personally I am not keen on small planes. I remember having to take one back from Wolfsburg to Prague and it stopped off in Kassel in pretty heavy snow. It seemed to me to be flying sideways as it came in to land. But in that case the pilots would say "two engines, two pilots, regular accredited commercial airline, sit back and trust the pros to get you home"
Once again.....my comments have nothing to do with my now alleged understanding of aircraft top trump airworthiness.
I am am saying that I have a perceived understanding of aircraft top trump travel comfort.
On this basis I would not have got on the plane.
This is is purely a personal statement....I have no reason to blame Sala, Cardiff or Mackay.
Comments
This lot could probably be re-purposed relatively quickly;
http://www.uksport.gov.uk/our-work
The fa and EFL aren't going to act.
The part-time pilot who flew Emiliano Sala from France to Wales before crashing into the Channel made 'basic errors' before take-off, it was revealed today.
David Ibbotson was also not allowed to take paying passengers because he only had a private licence - not a commercial one - and didn't have the qualifications to fly in bad weather but took their plane into a winter storm, it has also emerged.
One image shows how Ibbotson apparently incorrectly filled in the plane's licence number on the form, writing N246DB instead of N264DB.
The pilot also reportedly used Visual Flight Rules (VFR) instead of Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
This means his qualifications only allowed him to fly at night if conditions were clear without any bad weather.
It appears Willie McKay is not even a registered agent, but was "helping his son" - something Samuels clearly missed in his scathing report on Cardiff's behaviour.
And while I think it should not be beyond the capabilities of any adult to book themselves a flight (no disrespect to Sala), what is the agent doing for his £1.5 million if he isn't sorting out this sort of thing?
McKay really does seem to live up to the worst stereotype of the football agent.
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/25876993/in-search-emiliano-sala
Sadly.
The pilots' forum is basically agreed that he threw the other Dave under the bus there by exposing that it was a paid for flight, and the other Dave (Henderson) knowingly let a pilot without sufficient professional credentials and paperwork operate that flight. They speculate that Ibbotson badly needed the money and would have been under great pressure to complete the flight. McKay basically hopes the attention will then be diverted to Henderson. But the pilots are having none of it, they basically ask the same question as you, WTF was he doing for his money. Some, who seem to have significant experience with football agents assert that McKay was hardly a newcomer to the world of private flights.
They are talking a lot about the unsafe grey area of private flights in small aircraft and how the legislation is either ignored or too weak. Why does this grey area exist? Cost, of course, huge savings.
They seem to generally agree that that flight, at that time of night, in that weather, should have been minimum twin engine, and two pilots. Many say they would not have taken off themselves without both. But they also ask, how on earth does the ordinary punter, a footballer, know this. They don't accept that McKay is an ordinary punter.
But Sala refused and as u say, he said he wanted to make his own way via a quicker more direct way
I am someway south of that demo-graph...and I wouldn't have got on it.
Have you ever refused to get on a plane, because you're not sure it's airworthy? Do you check over the pilots' credentials every time you get on a flight?
Imagine you had just signed a life-changing contract of work, and had to get to your new place of work, several hundred miles away, that evening. Would you *really* decide that you knew better than the pilot and had more knowledge than him about the plane, the weather and his capabilities, and turn down your only hope of getting where you needed to be that night?
I would not have got on that elastic band shit heap when there were clearly better options available.
You can keep poking - but my comments have nothing to do with airworthiness.
If I have the choice of 2 cabs for a long journey - I would chose the Mercedes.....not the Lada.
Whichever way you re-phrase it, it comes across as if you're either criticising the player for making a bad decision or gloating that there is no way you would do so. I don't think either of those are appropriate.
Stop making up complete nonsense.
He was suggesting that he wouldn't have boarded such a small & flimsy looking plane and I agree with him.
I've been on a couple of flights from City Airport, on something like 50 seater planes & they were rather bumpy & worrying.
I know I wouldn't be happy to fly the channel in a very small aircraft, even if you would.
If I was going to say Paris tomorrow I would choose a proper scheduled flight, rather than the plane offered to Sala, even if it was free.
NB I in no way blame Sala, it definitely wasn't his fault, but it was his choice, even if it was a difficult choice.
Personally I am not keen on small planes. I remember having to take one back from Wolfsburg to Prague and it stopped off in Kassel in pretty heavy snow. It seemed to me to be flying sideways as it came in to land. But in that case the pilots would say "two engines, two pilots, regular accredited commercial airline, sit back and trust the pros to get you home"
I am am saying that I have a perceived understanding of aircraft top trump travel comfort.
On this basis I would not have got on the plane.
This is is purely a personal statement....I have no reason to blame Sala, Cardiff or Mackay.