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Problems with our midfield.
Comments
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We were so slow and lethargic we weren't even second to the ball.Weegie Addick said:
Can I add winning the ball? We barely won a challenge in midfield today.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:Poor final ball.
Poor set piece delivery.
Poor decision making.
Failing to provide defensive cover.
What else is there?1 -
Reeves has been excellent in most of the home matches this season, before yesterday, he had one game where he over hit his passes but generally has been good.
Yesterday he was cack and got hooked.
Suddenly he's the lowest of the low.
Tough crowd in tonight.1 -
If Bowyer doesn't want to get us promoted he should lose patience with Fosu. Now Fosu may be deserving of every ounce of frustration, but if we want to significantly improve our chances of going up after they have recently gone down, we have to find a way to play him into form. We have too many missers in midfield, it is not that they are not decent players for this level but they can't bloody score goals and they can't open teams up.cantersaddick said:The best I've seen us play this season has been when our strikers have been splitting and pulling wide which dragged their centre backs out of position and created space for Aribo and Fosu to drive into the box from deep.
Obviously Karlan's pace was pretty key to playing this way but the other thing that was key was the make up of the midfield. We had Bielik as the physical presence at the base who ran things. We have ONE passer in Reeves then we had Aribo and Fosu who were under instruction to get into the box.
More recently that make up has changed. We have been playing 3 passers in the diamond none of whom like to drive into the box. Williams at the top of the diamond doesn't work for that reason. This has meant that when the strikers have split there was no one coming through the middle so now they don't bother splitting making us even more narrow as there is no width in this formation.
I know Fosu has gone off the boil of late and he's been a bit hot and cold this season but when he has been on it we have been excellent. The way he drove down the middle against Gills was brilliant.
I don't know the way forward as I don't think split strikers will work well without a Pacey striker.
I would certainly be considering a move to 3 at the back to give us some more width to use that as a way to get balls in to the strikers and allow us to fit in another passing midfielder. Certainly our pattern of play needs to adapt to the players we have available.
I would say the three players who can make things happen that we currently possess are Taylor, Aribo and Fosu. Ideally you want all three on the pitch and playing well. Bowyer may like Cullen, but he wont get you goals. Williams looks great but has scored three goals in his whole career.
Jordan Henderson is a terrific Premiership player, but what many knowledgeable people don't get is that if he played in League One he wouldn't get many goals. He is a misser not a scorer, great player that he is. You need players around him that score goals to make him the asset he is.
It applies to all levels. Of course a lower league scorer may not score at a higher level but that doesn't make them not a scorer - teh issue is a different one. The U18 team I manage was in a semi final today. We were 3-0 down at half time, and I had lots in my ear about taking our centre forward off. He was a bit off his game and he does miss a fair number of chances, but he gets chances others don't. I said, I can't take him off because he is our most likely player to score. I know I got a few laughs for that, but we ended up winning 4-3 and he got a hat-trick. I explain to them that with a player like him, you judge him on stats, not what you see on the pitch. No matter how bad he is playing, he stays on.0 -
Bowyer was a scorer so I don't know why he doesn't get it.1
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Nooooo....Isawsummersplay said:Need Pratley to come back in for next Saturday's game at AFCW. They will be physical and Reeves will be far too lightweight.
Beliek will be back so he can play instead. Reeves is next to useless. Always turns backwards, passes are over hit & his shooting is awful. In the last month he has skied a shit from inside the box from a corner.....description the following week he completely missed the ball...and then yesterday his free kick sailed 10 yards over the ball. He is a professional footballer & should be hitting these types of shots in training day in & day out. David Beckham stayed after training and practiced his free kicks until perfect. Its called dedication.0 -
For me @cantersaddick has hit the nail on the head.
When playing a diamond formation it is so crucial that the strikers split and sit on the full backs more than they do the centre backs. It stops the opposition pushing forward and exploiting our lack of width as much and it is far easier to counter attack effectively and with pace when you have the strikers sitting further wide and allowing the four in midfield that don't have the width to push through the middle. We in fact have scored so many goals this season because of the strikers splitting. The amount of times that Grant and Taylor pulled wide, one received the ball whilst the other made a run from the back post to get across the defence to score. It's subtle movements like this that showed how well the partnership worked. Losing Grant is more than his goals, it's his pace, his work rate and his relationship with Taylor. We must now figure out a way of becoming a side that is just as effective without him. The other part of the strikers splitting which allowed Fosu to exploit and look dangerous was that sometimes only one our Taylor and Grant pulled wide, Fosu was then allowed to drift wide himself and sometimes play in the old inside left forward position, it made him very difficult to pick up and mark.
Of course the midfield is not creating enough quality chances for the players at the top end of the team right now, but there are multiple factors influencing this. A midfield that consists of Cullen, Reeves, and Williams in a diamond is too small, lightweight and not enough pace between them. Reeves and Williams also want to pick the same type of positions so this doesn't help us either. For me personally, we either need to change formation and go to a back three when Bielik and Pearce are available, although Dijksteel could do a job temporarily. Or we need to add someone like Pratley back into the midfield and go with more presence, strength and height to allow Aribo to push forward and be creative. Or, and as much as I slated him last week with his ridiculous performance, we might need to pursue with Fosu instead of one or both of Reeves and Williams to play in that role behind the strikers. It's difficult as we have good players but they just don't seem to be doing it at the moment.1 -
I agree with some of the points you make, for example as a professional footballer, really they all should be doing better. If you want to focus on Reeves for example, he should be hitting the target more often and that free kick was very poor. However, we have to give credit where it is due too and Reeves scored the other week and the previous home game to that he came on and was fantastic, there is a player there and for me others are not doing it either but Reeves isn't the worst, not by a long shot.golfaddick said:
Nooooo....Isawsummersplay said:Need Pratley to come back in for next Saturday's game at AFCW. They will be physical and Reeves will be far too lightweight.
Beliek will be back so he can play instead. Reeves is next to useless. Always turns backwards, passes are over hit & his shooting is awful. In the last month he has skied a shit from inside the box from a corner.....description the following week he completely missed the ball...and then yesterday his free kick sailed 10 yards over the ball. He is a professional footballer & should be hitting these types of shots in training day in & day out. David Beckham stayed after training and practiced his free kicks until perfect. Its called dedication.
With regards to staying after training, there is strong scientific research now that shows repetitive movements such as shooting or practicing free kicks over and over again is more likely to cause an injury than it is anything else. The sports science and medical team have tried to limit the amount of repetitive movements such as these after normal training has finished because ultimately, in previous seasons too many players would stay back and do that and they were the same players who were getting injured from non contact injuries on a regular basis. Now the recommended amount is around 10, much more than that and they go into danger zone. So someone like Reeves who has a poor history of injuries, they would be cautious of him staying back after training.
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Interesting perspective re over training/repetitive movements and injuries. Not something that I'd previously considered.Sage said:
I agree with some of the points you make, for example as a professional footballer, really they all should be doing better. If you want to focus on Reeves for example, he should be hitting the target more often and that free kick was very poor. However, we have to give credit where it is due too and Reeves scored the other week and the previous home game to that he came on and was fantastic, there is a player there and for me others are not doing it either but Reeves isn't the worst, not by a long shot.golfaddick said:
Nooooo....Isawsummersplay said:Need Pratley to come back in for next Saturday's game at AFCW. They will be physical and Reeves will be far too lightweight.
Beliek will be back so he can play instead. Reeves is next to useless. Always turns backwards, passes are over hit & his shooting is awful. In the last month he has skied a shit from inside the box from a corner.....description the following week he completely missed the ball...and then yesterday his free kick sailed 10 yards over the ball. He is a professional footballer & should be hitting these types of shots in training day in & day out. David Beckham stayed after training and practiced his free kicks until perfect. Its called dedication.
With regards to staying after training, there is strong scientific research now that shows repetitive movements such as shooting or practicing free kicks over and over again is more likely to cause an injury than it is anything else. The sports science and medical team have tried to limit the amount of repetitive movements such as these after normal training has finished because ultimately, in previous seasons too many players would stay back and do that and they were the same players who were getting injured from non contact injuries on a regular basis. Now the recommended amount is around 10, much more than that and they go into danger zone. So someone like Reeves who has a poor history of injuries, they would be cautious of him staying back after training.0 -
It's Bielikgolfaddick said:
Nooooo....Isawsummersplay said:Need Pratley to come back in for next Saturday's game at AFCW. They will be physical and Reeves will be far too lightweight.
Beliek will be back so he can play instead. Reeves is next to useless. Always turns backwards, passes are over hit & his shooting is awful. In the last month he has skied a shit from inside the box from a corner.....description the following week he completely missed the ball...and then yesterday his free kick sailed 10 yards over the ball. He is a professional footballer & should be hitting these types of shots in training day in & day out. David Beckham stayed after training and practiced his free kicks until perfect. Its called dedication.
It's not Beliek, that's what you get after a dodgy ruby...0 -
One of the main issues with our midfield other than those set out above is that our diamond system relies on effective forward moving width being provided by our full backs. Other than the perennially crocked Page, we don’t have any full backs who provide pace and crossing ability. Dijksteel gets a nosebleed if he crosses half way. Solly doesn’t have the pace and is a mediocre crosser. Purrington provides nothing in the opposition half whatsoever on the limited evidence so far. Err, that’s it. In previous seasons we’ve had Page (intermittently), Da Silva and even Fox who, for all his failings, could chunder up and down the wing to reasonable effect. We also had midfielders like Holmes, Lookman, Harriett, JBG etc who could all (to varying effect) play as genuine wingers. In this squad we have absolutely no genuine width other than Marshall who, for all his effort, is a busted flush and can’t cross for toffee. This was a big issue even before our post Christmas slump although Grant’s pace papered over the crack somewhat.0
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I think you're been over critical of the full backs - Solly's crossing is no worse than most of our midfield and Purrington has been getting up the pitch in the games I've seen.Sillybilly said:One of the main issues with our midfield other than those set out above is that our diamond system relies on effective forward moving width being provided by our full backs. Other than the perennially crocked Page, we don’t have any full backs who provide pace and crossing ability. Dijksteel gets a nosebleed if he crosses half way. Solly doesn’t have the pace and is a mediocre crosser. Purrington provides nothing in the opposition half whatsoever on the limited evidence so far. Err, that’s it. In previous seasons we’ve had Page (intermittently), Da Silva and even Fox who, for all his failings, could chunder up and down the wing to reasonable effect. We also had midfielders like Holmes, Lookman, Harriett, JBG etc who could all (to varying effect) play as genuine wingers. In this squad we have absolutely no genuine width other than Marshall who, for all his effort, is a busted flush and can’t cross for toffee. This was a big issue even before our post Christmas slump although Grant’s pace papered over the crack somewhat.
Our midfielders are the issue and you need to add in that a number of them seem unable to provide defensive cover.
DaSilva was certainly an attacking full back but defensively I never thought he was particularly outstanding and seemed to be targetted by the oppo due to his height/physique.
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You may be right in that Solly has played most of the season on the wrong side and dijksteel is a defensive midfielder who is being asked to play fullback. To that extent it’s a bit like beating your dog because it can’t play the piano. And I agree that Da Silva’s attacking flair often masked his defensive frailties. But I have to say I do feel watching the team this season, even when we were playing well, that we just don’t have effective attacking width. It’s a squad deficiency combined with sticking to a system that doesn’t really suit the squad we have.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
I think you're been over critical of the full backs - Solly's crossing is no worse than most of our midfield and Purrington has been getting up the pitch in the games I've seen.Sillybilly said:One of the main issues with our midfield other than those set out above is that our diamond system relies on effective forward moving width being provided by our full backs. Other than the perennially crocked Page, we don’t have any full backs who provide pace and crossing ability. Dijksteel gets a nosebleed if he crosses half way. Solly doesn’t have the pace and is a mediocre crosser. Purrington provides nothing in the opposition half whatsoever on the limited evidence so far. Err, that’s it. In previous seasons we’ve had Page (intermittently), Da Silva and even Fox who, for all his failings, could chunder up and down the wing to reasonable effect. We also had midfielders like Holmes, Lookman, Harriett, JBG etc who could all (to varying effect) play as genuine wingers. In this squad we have absolutely no genuine width other than Marshall who, for all his effort, is a busted flush and can’t cross for toffee. This was a big issue even before our post Christmas slump although Grant’s pace papered over the crack somewhat.
Our midfielders are the issue and you need to add in that a number of them seem unable to provide defensive cover.
DaSilva was certainly an attacking full back but defensively I never thought he was particularly outstanding and seemed to be targetted by the oppo due to his height/physique.0 -
We have a lot of trickery in our midfield but when it comes to decision making and the final ball we fail time and time again. We either overplay things or deliver a weak shot/cross at the goalkeeper.Sillybilly said:
You may be right in that Solly has played most of the season on the wrong side and dijksteel is a defensive midfielder who is being asked to play fullback. To that extent it’s a bit like beating your dog because it can’t play the piano. And I agree that Da Silva’s attacking flair often masked his defensive frailties. But I have to say I do feel watching the team this season, even when we were playing well, that we just don’t have effective attacking width. It’s a squad deficiency combined with sticking to a system that doesn’t really suit the squad we have.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
I think you're been over critical of the full backs - Solly's crossing is no worse than most of our midfield and Purrington has been getting up the pitch in the games I've seen.Sillybilly said:One of the main issues with our midfield other than those set out above is that our diamond system relies on effective forward moving width being provided by our full backs. Other than the perennially crocked Page, we don’t have any full backs who provide pace and crossing ability. Dijksteel gets a nosebleed if he crosses half way. Solly doesn’t have the pace and is a mediocre crosser. Purrington provides nothing in the opposition half whatsoever on the limited evidence so far. Err, that’s it. In previous seasons we’ve had Page (intermittently), Da Silva and even Fox who, for all his failings, could chunder up and down the wing to reasonable effect. We also had midfielders like Holmes, Lookman, Harriett, JBG etc who could all (to varying effect) play as genuine wingers. In this squad we have absolutely no genuine width other than Marshall who, for all his effort, is a busted flush and can’t cross for toffee. This was a big issue even before our post Christmas slump although Grant’s pace papered over the crack somewhat.
Our midfielders are the issue and you need to add in that a number of them seem unable to provide defensive cover.
DaSilva was certainly an attacking full back but defensively I never thought he was particularly outstanding and seemed to be targetted by the oppo due to his height/physique.
Williams on the surface looks an exciting player but as for his end product it doesn't measure up. It's disappointing how few goals we score from midfield.
I had high hopes for both Marshall and Reeves when we signed them but it hasn't really worked out and Fosu seems to have gone off the boil.
Cullen and Bielik are not naturally attacking players so it's really down to Aribo to provide a cutting edge.
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Flat 442
Phillips
solly, bauer, Pearce, Sarr (shame to move him out of the centre but the other one is dire)
Williams, Cullen, Aribo, Fosu
taylor, another0 -
Bowyer’s built the squad to play this system, what would you suggest better suits the players we have? Fosu and Marshall are our only natural wide midfielders.Sillybilly said:
You may be right in that Solly has played most of the season on the wrong side and dijksteel is a defensive midfielder who is being asked to play fullback. To that extent it’s a bit like beating your dog because it can’t play the piano. And I agree that Da Silva’s attacking flair often masked his defensive frailties. But I have to say I do feel watching the team this season, even when we were playing well, that we just don’t have effective attacking width. It’s a squad deficiency combined with sticking to a system that doesn’t really suit the squad we have.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
I think you're been over critical of the full backs - Solly's crossing is no worse than most of our midfield and Purrington has been getting up the pitch in the games I've seen.Sillybilly said:One of the main issues with our midfield other than those set out above is that our diamond system relies on effective forward moving width being provided by our full backs. Other than the perennially crocked Page, we don’t have any full backs who provide pace and crossing ability. Dijksteel gets a nosebleed if he crosses half way. Solly doesn’t have the pace and is a mediocre crosser. Purrington provides nothing in the opposition half whatsoever on the limited evidence so far. Err, that’s it. In previous seasons we’ve had Page (intermittently), Da Silva and even Fox who, for all his failings, could chunder up and down the wing to reasonable effect. We also had midfielders like Holmes, Lookman, Harriett, JBG etc who could all (to varying effect) play as genuine wingers. In this squad we have absolutely no genuine width other than Marshall who, for all his effort, is a busted flush and can’t cross for toffee. This was a big issue even before our post Christmas slump although Grant’s pace papered over the crack somewhat.
Our midfielders are the issue and you need to add in that a number of them seem unable to provide defensive cover.
DaSilva was certainly an attacking full back but defensively I never thought he was particularly outstanding and seemed to be targetted by the oppo due to his height/physique.
If we had a decent budget to spend on players I’d agree we need better attacking full backs, as well as a replacement for Grant and goalscoring midfielders.0 -
It was a 2 match suspension so Bielik won't be availablegolfaddick said:
Nooooo....Isawsummersplay said:Need Pratley to come back in for next Saturday's game at AFCW. They will be physical and Reeves will be far too lightweight.
Beliek will be back so he can play instead. Reeves is next to useless. Always turns backwards, passes are over hit & his shooting is awful. In the last month he has skied a shit from inside the box from a corner.....description the following week he completely missed the ball...and then yesterday his free kick sailed 10 yards over the ball. He is a professional footballer & should be hitting these types of shots in training day in & day out. David Beckham stayed after training and practiced his free kicks until perfect. Its called dedication.1 -
Remember the Curbs midfield? Holland, Parker, Jensen and Stuart. Two central midfielders out wide, Parker box to box and Claus, well, just do what you want mate! The diamond left us so open down the wings on saturday, so I'd say we need to go more solid 442. I'd stick fosu in on the wing and give him a proper run of games. Aribo on the opposite flank (they can swap throughout the game), beilik and cullen/pratley in the middle with strick instructions to win the ball and give it straight to the widemen/hit Taylor. Job done.0
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I’d rather have Holland , Parker, Jensen, Stuart than the current 4. Claus is probably 18 stoneYTS1978 said:Remember the Curbs midfield? Holland, Parker, Jensen and Stuart. Two central midfielders out wide, Parker box to box and Claus, well, just do what you want mate! The diamond left us so open down the wings on saturday, so I'd say we need to go more solid 442. I'd stick fosu in on the wing and give him a proper run of games. Aribo on the opposite flank (they can swap throughout the game), beilik and cullen/pratley in the middle with strick instructions to win the ball and give it straight to the widemen/hit Taylor. Job done.1 -
I think Bowyer has fallen into the trap of trying to get as many of his "best players" into the team as possible.
I love the idea of Cullen, Reeves and Williams playing together but it's a bit samey. Maybe Aribo would be better at the tip?
You would think a team coached by Bowyer and Jackson, with influence of Euall, would be full of midfielders arriving late and scoring goals.0 -
@wmcf123 haha...me too! The good old days...wmcf123 said:
I’d rather have Holland , Parker, Jensen, Stuart than the current 4. Claus is probably 18 stoneYTS1978 said:Remember the Curbs midfield? Holland, Parker, Jensen and Stuart. Two central midfielders out wide, Parker box to box and Claus, well, just do what you want mate! The diamond left us so open down the wings on saturday, so I'd say we need to go more solid 442. I'd stick fosu in on the wing and give him a proper run of games. Aribo on the opposite flank (they can swap throughout the game), beilik and cullen/pratley in the middle with strick instructions to win the ball and give it straight to the widemen/hit Taylor. Job done.1 - Sponsored links:
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The main problem with our midfield is the propensity of one paced, lightweight midgets we have played over the last few years. They can't win the ball and they don't know where the goal is.
I'm put in mind of Willie Wonka and his 'oompah lumpahs' (?spelling) in Charlie and The Chocolate factory.
They have different names year on year but their lack of physicality and effectiveness never varies.
Other than the Belgian Shadow the one constant at Charlton in recent years is an impotent midfield.3 -
LenGlover said:The main problem with our midfield is the propensity of one paced, lightweight midgets we have played over the last few years. They can't win the ball and they don't know where the goal is.
I'm put in mind of Willie Wonka and his 'oompah lumpahs' (?spelling) in Charlie and The Chocolate factory.
They have different names year on year but their lack of physicality and effectiveness never varies.
Other than the Belgian Shadow the one constant at Charlton in recent years is an impotent midfield.
Torn between liking and a loling that post.0 -
If you want a team of physicality and tall players, we can have that. It would however be far too defensive, have a lack of ideas going forward but if we were to win a set piece or corner we would have a good opportunity of winning the ball. Would probably have to look something like:
Phillips
Bauer Pearce Sarr
Dijksteel Bielik Pratley Purrington
Aribo
Taylor Vetokele
Purrington taking the dead ball situations with Bauer, Pearce, Sarr, Bielik, Pratley, Aribo, Taylor and Vetokele all in the box.
Sorted
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Karlans goals help paper over the cracks in more than one way, thats why not replacing him was utter madness, and has made an uphill task even harder, we have missed Joe Aribo big time, but its a big ask getting and keeping him match fit till the end of the season.1
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Lapslie back in Mid for me for his engine room affect.0
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Would like to see more of Albie Morgan and Lapslie, maybe alternating. Both have good engines, and Albie is a good passer of the ball. They’d both improve with games.2
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A very little poem:
Good teams that don't freely score
Will win some, lose some and often draw
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The idea of Purrington at wing back makes me feel slightly illSage said:If you want a team of physicality and tall players, we can have that. It would however be far too defensive, have a lack of ideas going forward but if we were to win a set piece or corner we would have a good opportunity of winning the ball. Would probably have to look something like:
Phillips
Bauer Pearce Sarr
Dijksteel Bielik Pratley Purrington
Aribo
Taylor Vetokele
Purrington taking the dead ball situations with Bauer, Pearce, Sarr, Bielik, Pratley, Aribo, Taylor and Vetokele all in the box.
Sorted1 -
wmcf123 said:
The idea of Purrington at wing back makes me feel slightly illSage said:If you want a team of physicality and tall players, we can have that. It would however be far too defensive, have a lack of ideas going forward but if we were to win a set piece or corner we would have a good opportunity of winning the ball. Would probably have to look something like:
Phillips
Bauer Pearce Sarr
Dijksteel Bielik Pratley Purrington
Aribo
Taylor Vetokele
Purrington taking the dead ball situations with Bauer, Pearce, Sarr, Bielik, Pratley, Aribo, Taylor and Vetokele all in the box.
Sorted
What’s happened to Lewis page? Seems he has been injured forever. He could help solve some of our issues.0 -
Purrington has done well in the games I've seen but he's not really cut out to be a wing back.1
