In 20+ years going Charlton and to numerous away games I have never encountered any racism from our crowds. I generally have always sat in covered end at home. I obviously have had different experiences to some on here.
You would have to be a monumental idiot to take a banana to a sporting event nowadaysregardless of whether your sole intention was to eat it, Lyle is spot on in everything he says. Can't believe it is still an issue in this day and age.
Sorry @Pelling1993 But this is the stupidest thing I have ever read...
Banana's are a food source. That is literally all they are to humans.
I am a banana eater and I'd much prefer a banana to most of the crap the club sells. However I usually get one of those ridiculous burgers before a game instead.
But that isn't literally all they are is it? It has horrible connotations especially in football... that's the point Lyle is making!
I'm not calling people that have eaten a banana at a football game racists, i'd hope that should be quite obvious...
I too am a banana eater but i can just about manage to last 2 hours at a game of football without one, say for example someone sitting near you racially abuses a player and its caught on camera, you're not going to look great standing there with your banana are you?
Maybe i am an idiot, but it seems like something that common sense says I should avoid, its not exactly a necessary part of going to the football is it? and its only going to lead to bad news
Andy cole and teddy sheringham played up front together and hardly spoke or liked each other. But anyway what was your point? Why is it a minefield i genuinely ask?
Andy cole and teddy sheringham played up front together and hardly spoke or liked each other. But anyway what was your point? Why is it a minefield i genuinely ask?
You would have to be a monumental idiot to take a banana to a sporting event nowadays regardless of whether your sole intention was to eat it, Lyle is spot on in everything he says. Can't believe it is still an issue in this day and age.
I won't give that a LOL, it would only encourage you to spout more drivel.
the words used in the clip a few older generation would probably still use those words - does that make it right - nope but if 2 80 + Year olds were having the conversation mentioned privately and not shouting abuse out or doing racist gestures, i do not know what punishment would be appropriate.
But they knew it wasn't right as they asked "can we still say *****" while laughing. It was no innocent mistake.
And that term, unlike say "coloured", was never a polite word, always a slur.
And it wasn't a private conversation. They were sat in a football stadium
And even if they were over 80 (which we don't know) and considered it private (which it wasn't) it was still racist and the club should have done more.
the point i was making was the 2 chaps in the mentioned example were not "deliberately" racially abusing someone very different to throwing bananas, making monkey noises, hissing about gas chambers etc. so what punishment would people like to be set?
the reason i mention age is my grandad, which i have used as an example before ( passed away now ) would often say things that would be percieved as racist by today's standards which is in his mind he really wouldn't mean offence, i've even seen a only fools and horses episode where they have come out with the " del the p**i shop wont let us have anything more on tick".
2 ( if ) old boys sat watching a match and one says to the other what was said in example i don't think a trip to Guantanamo bay is in order, on the flip side of course you cannot be casually racist and just apologise for it afterwards its a very tough issue to tackle.
There's a time to put your shovel down and stop digging.
His only omission is that he could call on us, the fans, to challenge racist language and behaviour ourselves when we encounter it. I know it isn't easy, and 'reporting it' is probably the best idea for a lot of people who hate the racism, but for me I feel better by challenging it directly at whatever cost and risk.
Sometime I feel my personal physical well being comes second to standing up for what I think is right.
Many years ago, under the pseudonym of 'Charles Lee' (my middle name and my location) I wrote an article in VOTV following our final game at Selhurst against West ham, when I turned and challenged the man behind me describing Paul Mortimer as a 'spook' amongst other racist terms.
That was how many years ago?
What I wrote then was as much about the lack of support I received from fans around me when I challenged the guy as it was about the vile racism from the bloke behind me.
Yet it still goes on today. Paul Mortimer was a masterful footballer, not a player defined by the colour of his skin but the twinkle in his toes, can't all fans see that yet?
A couple of years ago I challenged Setb Plum about racist comments he made about the English. I received no apology from Seth and no support from administrators or contributers. Seth Plum is right when he says it still goes on today.
the words used in the clip a few older generation would probably still use those words - does that make it right - nope but if 2 80 + Year olds were having the conversation mentioned privately and not shouting abuse out or doing racist gestures, i do not know what punishment would be appropriate.
But they knew it wasn't right as they asked "can we still say *****" while laughing. It was no innocent mistake.
And that term, unlike say "coloured", was never a polite word, always a slur.
And it wasn't a private conversation. They were sat in a football stadium
And even if they were over 80 (which we don't know) and considered it private (which it wasn't) it was still racist and the club should have done more.
the point i was making was the 2 chaps in the mentioned example were not "deliberately" racially abusing someone very different to throwing bananas, making monkey noises, hissing about gas chambers etc. so what punishment would people like to be set?
the reason i mention age is my grandad, which i have used as an example before ( passed away now ) would often say things that would be percieved as racist by today's standards which is in his mind he really wouldn't mean offence, i've even seen a only fools and horses episode where they have come out with the " del the p**i shop wont let us have anything more on tick".
2 ( if ) old boys sat watching a match and one says to the other what was said in example i don't think a trip to Guantanamo bay is in order, on the flip side of course you cannot be casually racist and just apologise for it afterwards its a very tough issue to tackle.
There's a time to put your shovel down and stop digging.
there is also a time to not get involved with a pointless and twatty comment, ta
His only omission is that he could call on us, the fans, to challenge racist language and behaviour ourselves when we encounter it. I know it isn't easy, and 'reporting it' is probably the best idea for a lot of people who hate the racism, but for me I feel better by challenging it directly at whatever cost and risk.
Sometime I feel my personal physical well being comes second to standing up for what I think is right.
Many years ago, under the pseudonym of 'Charles Lee' (my middle name and my location) I wrote an article in VOTV following our final game at Selhurst against West ham, when I turned and challenged the man behind me describing Paul Mortimer as a 'spook' amongst other racist terms.
That was how many years ago?
What I wrote then was as much about the lack of support I received from fans around me when I challenged the guy as it was about the vile racism from the bloke behind me.
Yet it still goes on today. Paul Mortimer was a masterful footballer, not a player defined by the colour of his skin but the twinkle in his toes, can't all fans see that yet?
A couple of years ago I challenged Setb Plum about racist comments he made about the English. I received no apology from Seth and no support from administrators or contributers. Seth Plum is right when he says it still goes on today.
This needs back up, like the actual example(s) where I made racist comments about the English. And the example of your challenge. "A couple of years ago' is possibly a convenient get out for you, but if you're sure of yourself then produce the evidence
@seth plum maybe not racist but before now you have called all british tradesmen lazy and cowboys - which is quite a broad term.
this i am happy to produce evidence of.
Go for it. Make sure it is the original and contains the word 'all', without being about all in my personal experience. Anyway go for it, I am intrigued to see how racist I appear to be to others, and I hope @smudge can produce his evidence too.
I am loathe to mention immigration so maybe I can reverse it a bit. If I moved to Italy I would have to secure a job on the open market, pay Italian NI, tax and local taxes, and have to find somewhere to live and pay the rent. I would not be knocking on the first door I saw and demand a place to live and to be looked after. If there were no jobs and nowhere to live I could not live there. I would be a factor in the jobs and housing 'market' and free market economists would recognise that. There is an assumption that EU migrants rock up and demand all the goodies for nothing. I don't see that personally. They suss out a job and somewhere to live for themselves it seems to me, and pay into the system. If there are issues about undercutting wages, that is a technical rule based element that can be addressed. I know it is a cliché but my Polish plumber does a great job, and dare I say a better job than local tradespeople I have contracted previously. He also does not do cash in hand, but provides all paperwork and I assume pays tax, many local tradespeople previously have preferred cash payment.
by local i presume you mean british ie not polish.
july 2016 One of my experiences of collaborating with Eastern European trades people Is they generally do a better job to a higher standard regardless of what they get paid. I am Imagine there are examples the other way. However a 'British' company have been selling front of house paving up and down my road by blatantly lying and saying the council is bringing in pay and display. They have been charging around £4000 per drive, except the disabled pensioner with a hip replacement who lives three doors up from me, she said she was pleased they were doing hers at a 'special price' of £6000. I didn't have the heart to tell her how much she was being ripped off by these callous bastards because they had already finished and taken her money from her savings.
again by eastern european means clearly not british.
I am loathe to mention immigration so maybe I can reverse it a bit. If I moved to Italy I would have to secure a job on the open market, pay Italian NI, tax and local taxes, and have to find somewhere to live and pay the rent. I would not be knocking on the first door I saw and demand a place to live and to be looked after. If there were no jobs and nowhere to live I could not live there. I would be a factor in the jobs and housing 'market' and free market economists would recognise that. There is an assumption that EU migrants rock up and demand all the goodies for nothing. I don't see that personally. They suss out a job and somewhere to live for themselves it seems to me, and pay into the system. If there are issues about undercutting wages, that is a technical rule based element that can be addressed. I know it is a cliché but my Polish plumber does a great job, and dare I say a better job than local tradespeople I have contracted previously. He also does not do cash in hand, but provides all paperwork and I assume pays tax, many local tradespeople previously have preferred cash payment.
by local i presume you mean british ie not polish.
july 2016 One of my experiences of collaborating with Eastern European trades people Is they generally do a better job to a higher standard regardless of what they get paid. I am Imagine there are examples the other way. However a 'British' company have been selling front of house paving up and down my road by blatantly lying and saying the council is bringing in pay and display. They have been charging around £4000 per drive, except the disabled pensioner with a hip replacement who lives three doors up from me, she said she was pleased they were doing hers at a 'special price' of £6000. I didn't have the heart to tell her how much she was being ripped off by these callous bastards because they had already finished and taken her money from her savings.
again by eastern european means clearly not british.
Are you seriously suggesting that those posts are me calling 'all british tradesmen lazy and cowboys'? There is no evidence here of anti British or English racism, or for that matter the catch-all word 'all', and for you to introduce all this, and involving me on this particular thread, seems bizarre.
I am loathe to mention immigration so maybe I can reverse it a bit. If I moved to Italy I would have to secure a job on the open market, pay Italian NI, tax and local taxes, and have to find somewhere to live and pay the rent. I would not be knocking on the first door I saw and demand a place to live and to be looked after. If there were no jobs and nowhere to live I could not live there. I would be a factor in the jobs and housing 'market' and free market economists would recognise that. There is an assumption that EU migrants rock up and demand all the goodies for nothing. I don't see that personally. They suss out a job and somewhere to live for themselves it seems to me, and pay into the system. If there are issues about undercutting wages, that is a technical rule based element that can be addressed. I know it is a cliché but my Polish plumber does a great job, and dare I say a better job than local tradespeople I have contracted previously. He also does not do cash in hand, but provides all paperwork and I assume pays tax, many local tradespeople previously have preferred cash payment.
by local i presume you mean british ie not polish.
july 2016 One of my experiences of collaborating with Eastern European trades people Is they generally do a better job to a higher standard regardless of what they get paid. I am Imagine there are examples the other way. However a 'British' company have been selling front of house paving up and down my road by blatantly lying and saying the council is bringing in pay and display. They have been charging around £4000 per drive, except the disabled pensioner with a hip replacement who lives three doors up from me, she said she was pleased they were doing hers at a 'special price' of £6000. I didn't have the heart to tell her how much she was being ripped off by these callous bastards because they had already finished and taken her money from her savings.
again by eastern european means clearly not british.
Are you seriously suggesting that those posts are me calling 'all british tradesmen lazy and cowboys'? There is no evidence here of anti British or English racism, or for that matter the catch-all word 'all', and for you to introduce all this, and involving me on this particular thread, seems bizarre.
Jesus wept. I know all threads on here descend into drivel eventually, but this one's descent has been more precipitous than most.
We've gone from a really powerful video from one of our club heroes on an important topic, to the perils of bringing the wrong fruit into the ground and finally accusations that Seth is racist because he rates a Polish plumber he used once and a dodgy paving company ripped off one of his neighbours. WTAF am I reading here?
Back to the videos with Lyle. I thought Josh was the most articulate footballer we've had at Charlton for years, genuine, cliche avoiding, great vocabulary, good listening skills and avoidance of repetition, but I have to say that Lyle is even better. Maybe it is because of the subject matter, but for fluency and clarity these interviews with Lyle are very impressive as interviews and we are lucky to have him at Charlton, even if sadly it will only be for one season. The man has a promising future either in football or elsewhere.
Jesus wept. I know all threads on here descend into drivel eventually, but this one's descent has been more precipitous than most.
We've gone from a really powerful video from one of our club heroes on an important topic, to the perils of bringing the wrong fruit into the ground and finally accusations that Seth is racist because he rates a Polish plumber he used once and a dodgy paving company ripped off one of his neighbours. WTAF am I reading here?
Lyle Taylor is having an unreal season - but a club hero? really, not disputing that the bloke is top notch both on and off the pitch.
the reason for my comments is on many a thread seth always has an example of "when this happened to me" and drives threads in a different way, so as another poster commented i thought i would give my tuppence worth which often happens with a group of certain posters on here.
mods feel free to delete my posts if you want to have this thread remain on topic.
@palarsehater you are quite deliberately misrepresenting me, and if I challenge you for more evidence it will be as non existent as the so called evidence you have posted above. For example in what way did I drive this thread off course in my first post here? I accept it might seem indulgent to you that I referenced an article I wrote 28 years ago, but it was exactly about this topic, and the point I tried to make is about how little progress has been made with regard to racist abuse over that period of time. You say (curiously by saying both 'always' and also 'many a time', which is it?) that I hi-jack and divert threads by giving personal experiences and driving threads in new directions. You are wrong, you are a liar, and you can't back anything up. If anybody has diverted and diluted the discussion on this thread it is you and smudge when you decided to attack me and accuse me of being a racist. I completely accept your hatred of me, but if you try to justify your hatred by telling lies I will react.
Guys seriously... You're grown men. Stop bickering... At least stop clogging up threads with it. If you want to bicker, use the wall if you want people to see it or inbox one another if not.
It's really unnecessary for it to clog up this thread.
At the Valley I don’t routinely hear blatant low brow racial insults and epithets but do always hear players’ skin colour referred to if they’re non-white. Often the speakers are senior in age but not always. I’m sure they would vehemently deny racism on their part but the insistent colour based distinction they always make has no other basis. It is only different from the prevalent monkey noises of the 80’s by degree. The need to highlight non-white players’ creed is racist full stop. I have highlighted it to perpetrators and been met with furious indignation and blank incomprehension. It continues. Scum will remain scum but we shouldn’t allow them to go unchallenged. Football grounds can certainly be made no go areas for racists.
@Dazzler21 I am not bickering but defending myself against accusations of racism backed up by lies? Are you suggesting I should ignore such stuff when initiated by others and directed at me?
Comments
Taylor comes across well here.
Totally agree. He's a younger Johnnie Jackson in terms of the way he portrays himself and has the club in his heart.
I'm not calling people that have eaten a banana at a football game racists, i'd hope that should be quite obvious...
I too am a banana eater but i can just about manage to last 2 hours at a game of football without one, say for example someone sitting near you racially abuses a player and its caught on camera, you're not going to look great standing there with your banana are you?
Maybe i am an idiot, but it seems like something that common sense says I should avoid, its not exactly a necessary part of going to the football is it? and its only going to lead to bad news
Taylor speaks out quite rightly against alledged Racism. He mentions an incident he heard from a third party.
However he played up front with an alledged rapist for half of this season. This is such a minefield.
.
I received no apology from Seth and no support from administrators or contributers. Seth Plum is right when he says it still goes on today.
Isn't 'spook' a derogatory name for a white person?
Listen to Hot Chocolate's song Brother Louis.
And the example of your challenge.
"A couple of years ago' is possibly a convenient get out for you, but if you're sure of yourself then produce the evidence
this i am happy to produce evidence of.
Make sure it is the original and contains the word 'all', without being about all in my personal experience. Anyway go for it, I am intrigued to see how racist I appear to be to others, and I hope @smudge can produce his evidence too.
I would not be knocking on the first door I saw and demand a place to live and to be looked after. If there were no jobs and nowhere to live I could not live there. I would be a factor in the jobs and housing 'market' and free market economists would recognise that.
There is an assumption that EU migrants rock up and demand all the goodies for nothing. I don't see that personally. They suss out a job and somewhere to live for themselves it seems to me, and pay into the system.
If there are issues about undercutting wages, that is a technical rule based element that can be addressed. I know it is a cliché but my Polish plumber does a great job, and dare I say a better job than local tradespeople I have contracted previously. He also does not do cash in hand, but provides all paperwork and I assume pays tax, many local tradespeople previously have preferred cash payment.
by local i presume you mean british ie not polish.
july 2016
One of my experiences of collaborating with Eastern European trades people
Is they generally do a better job to a higher standard regardless of what they get paid.
I am Imagine there are examples the other way. However a 'British' company have been selling front of house paving up and down my road by blatantly lying and saying the council is bringing in pay and display. They have been charging around £4000 per drive, except the disabled pensioner with a hip replacement who lives three doors up from me, she said she was pleased they were doing hers at a 'special price' of £6000.
I didn't have the heart to tell her how much she was being ripped off by these callous bastards because they had already finished and taken her money from her savings.
again by eastern european means clearly not british.
There is no evidence here of anti British or English racism, or for that matter the catch-all word 'all', and for you to introduce all this, and involving me on this particular thread, seems bizarre.
I thought Josh was the most articulate footballer we've had at Charlton for years, genuine, cliche avoiding, great vocabulary, good listening skills and avoidance of repetition, but I have to say that Lyle is even better.
Maybe it is because of the subject matter, but for fluency and clarity these interviews with Lyle are very impressive as interviews and we are lucky to have him at Charlton, even if sadly it will only be for one season.
The man has a promising future either in football or elsewhere.
the reason for my comments is on many a thread seth always has an example of "when this happened to me" and drives threads in a different way, so as another poster commented i thought i would give my tuppence worth which often happens with a group of certain posters on here.
mods feel free to delete my posts if you want to have this thread remain on topic.
For example in what way did I drive this thread off course in my first post here? I accept it might seem indulgent to you that I referenced an article I wrote 28 years ago, but it was exactly about this topic, and the point I tried to make is about how little progress has been made with regard to racist abuse over that period of time.
You say (curiously by saying both 'always' and also 'many a time', which is it?) that I hi-jack and divert threads by giving personal experiences and driving threads in new directions. You are wrong, you are a liar, and you can't back anything up.
If anybody has diverted and diluted the discussion on this thread it is you and smudge when you decided to attack me and accuse me of being a racist.
I completely accept your hatred of me, but if you try to justify your hatred by telling lies I will react.
You're grown men. Stop bickering... At least stop clogging up threads with it. If you want to bicker, use the wall if you want people to see it or inbox one another if not.
It's really unnecessary for it to clog up this thread.
Are you suggesting I should ignore such stuff when initiated by others and directed at me?