Surprised nobody mentioned the kerfuffle behind the Luton dugout when Lyle scored. We quite often get a few oppo non-playing squad members sitting in the vacant seats behind the dugout, and I have never seen any issue with any of them in the past. Even if their team scored, they would be respectful and not celebrate. On Saturday, about five Luton players/staff (including Lua-Lua, I'm sure, wearing a stupid baseball cap) were joined in the seats by a couple of Luton fans. When Luton scored, they all jumped up and cheered very loudly, which as I say, I've never seen before in that area. That annoyed some west stand locals (possibly as it woke them up?) and it was considered disrespectful. One steward came down to see what was going on. Lua Lua (if it was him) calmed it all down by telling one guy that if and when Charlton scored, we could all jump up and shout too. Cue Lyle's pen going in and the Luton boys are getting earfuls from all and sundry sitting near them, some of it slightly OTT, but whatever. Lua Lua then put hands on one CA fan and it almost got nasty, before stewards came in and sorted it out. The group were first moved to the front row of seats, then farther along into the sterile area at the end which is not used anymore. It could have got very nasty had they still been around when Igor scored!!! Another senior steward said that they had permission to sit there, but that's never happened in games with a big crowd before.
That explains why modern dugouts are much bigger than ours!
After all it seems unrealistic to expect opposition players not to celebrate a really important goal
I thought the Portsmouth win at home was one of the best performances I have seen at home in years . This one out does that one by miles . Other people have said Bowyer has done something amazing. We just got to enjoy and hope it lasts a long time
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Having chances set up by Lyle just shows they were a good partnership. The fact that Grant set up chances for Lyle seems to be forgotten.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Having chances set up by Lyle just shows they were a good partnership. The fact that Grant set up chances for Lyle seems to be forgotten.
He set up 5 assists in half a season according to Transfermarkt.
So a decent return for a striker then. On course for 10 over a full season in addition to being on his way to 20+ goals. That also excludes chances created that were missed by team mates.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Having chances set up by Lyle just shows they were a good partnership. The fact that Grant set up chances for Lyle seems to be forgotten.
He set up 5 assists in half a season according to Transfermarkt.
So a decent return for a striker then. On course for 10 over a full season in addition to being on his way to 20+ goals. That also excludes chances created that were missed by team mates.
Yep fair point... How many does he have now?
Personally I think Taylor is better than them both.
He is going to back the ref as that is what he does. If it was the other way round and the ref sent Phillips off, he would be backing the ref making a completely different decision.
To be fair, I think roughly 80% of refs would have sent their keeper off. So in that respect, we were unlucky. I would have sent him off. My son, who is a qualified ref, felt he should have been sent off. What refs seem to hate, and don't seem able to accept is that they interpret the laws differently. As a coach, I have recently seen refs give handball every time the ball hits an arm and have been given the explanation that is what is expected of them now, but we had a great ref this morning who used his judgement. With handball they have got themselves in a hell of a mess.
If you are a ref, you have to make a call and often you might not be sure it is the right one. I think the ref made his call in good faith, but would probably considered sending the keeper off. Then the Williams challenge, which I think Williams played for presented the ref with a call to make and that is when you can get a penalty like we got as the ref has to make another call and the fact he has made two one way means he is more likely to make the next the other.
I was in the East stand and the defender was very silly in terms of where he had his hands. I think Taylor felt them and played for it, but if he didn't feel them he couldn't have made it convincing. The ref would have seen the contact and Taylor going over and it was difficult to gauge the force from his position.
Anyway, I think it was a well deserved win against a decent side. That is the important thing.
Sensible post. I think refs would have a much easier time if they: 1. Admitted they were human 2. Admitted that sometimes they made mistakes 3. Didn’t immediately close ranks in the face of any criticism
I do all three, and it does make life easier. Most players respect me for being honest with them.
The referee yesterday, and Peter, got it wrong. The keeper sprinted out directly towards Igor, lunged feet first and cleaned him out. The ball had gone as Igor had already lobbed it. It was reckless and it was very dangerous. If a player had sprinted 20 metres to do that to an opponent on the halfway line, it would also have been a red card offence. I would imagine whoever was assessing the ref will have had a word.
I really think it would benefit the game if referees were permitted an interview to give their perspective on controversial decisions. There is no shame in saying "My view was obstructed" or "I couldn't be sure from the angle I was at" or my favourite "Your fat number 9 was in the way and I couldn't see a thing." Also no shame in saying "having viewed the footage, I got it wrong."
Unfortunately, with the FA, from the very top down to the grassroots, there is a culture of closing ranks and refusing to admit to a mistake, generated by a mixture of fear of the consequences and sheer arrogance. Anyone who has had to deal with the monumental cock-up that is the Whole Game System can attest to that. It just seems to be a means to generate income by fining clubs for non-existent misdemeanours. If you query it, or suggest the system is flawed, then you can pay for a personal hearing that costs more than the fine levied! The club I run has been on the receiving end of a few such fines and I just pay them as it's too much aggro and too costly to contest them. Fortunately, as a referee, I get my own back by not processing any cautions or sendings-off (unless it's a serious one), thus depriving the FA of money they don't need or deserve.
As a former club secretary of many years' standing, you Sir, are a man after my own heart.
We (The U-18s I coach) have been subject to quite a few unjust fines this season. One of them was for something ridiculous that we made the mistake of appealing which only cost us more money.
In terms of not having the ball, the run influenced what he did with the ball. Anyway, the bottom line should be that goalkeepers shouldn't be allowed to make challenges that outfield players can't and as somebody rightly pointed out, had Solly done that on the halfway line it would have been a straight red and nobody would be complaining on here. Fortunately Vetokele wasn't injured, but I think there was an element of self preservation from him - thank god - which changed his priority from scoring to not getting injured by the keeper's recklessness.
Igor is the better striker for me. It isn't insane to think that.
A better striker than Grant? Behave yourself!
Firstly, if he was better than Grant he’d have been in the team ahead of him when fit - he wasn’t.
Secondly, Grant is a player on the rise, he has scored roughly 30 goals in his last 60 games in L2, L1 and the PL. That’s impressive stuff.
By contrast Vetokele - after that great start - has scored about 10 goals in the last four years - admittedly he has had long lay offs in that time.
Truth be told Igor will be very lucky to be retained by the club at the end of the season so the idea he is a better striker than KG at this point is bonkers.
At his peak maybe he was, but he ain’t at his peak now.
I mean, technically he was. He was tearing up the championship when fit. He then had that injury that has given him no end of problrms, earlier this season he was just starting to look fit again and got injured again, with a serious shoulder dislocation.
This season Karlan had so many chances teed up for him by Lyle it'd be disingenuous to say Karlan is the more rounded player.
I honestly believe a prime Igor was far better than this season's Karlan. Problem is it's been 4 and a half years since we saw that Igor...
Last couple of games he has really turned it around and has looked like the old Igor, even bullying the league leaders defence more than I ever saw Karlan do.
Karlan's pace is his biggest tool and we're seeing with Igor it seems that's his too, but he also seems to have something more about him.
For me who would I rather have the next 4 games were I to have a choice? Both of them obviously but Karlan is probably still the sharper of the two right now, so it'd be him. I say that knowing he's not scored in 3.
Having chances set up by Lyle just shows they were a good partnership. The fact that Grant set up chances for Lyle seems to be forgotten.
He set up 5 assists in half a season according to Transfermarkt.
So a decent return for a striker then. On course for 10 over a full season in addition to being on his way to 20+ goals. That also excludes chances created that were missed by team mates.
Yep fair point... How many does he have now?
Personally I think Taylor is better than them both.
Not sure but doubt it’s many more.
Agree on Taylor, he has the best all round game. Best striker since Yann and I’m confident he has plenty to offer in the Championship.
Grant has 2 goals since 20 January. Both in the same game. Not counting the goal that wasn’t (his “first” for Hudders). His last outfield goal for us was 1 January (the last two were pens).
Taylor is like having two players so if you have an effective striker playing with him as Grant was and Vetokele now is, it is difficult for opponents.
Phillips: critical saves to keep us in the match and decent distribution Solly: untroubled Bauer: untroubled Sarr: untroubled defensively and an attacking asset Purrington: untroubled Bielik: huge performance in the spine of the team, especially as he's not really fit Cullen: huge performance in the spine of the team Aribo: barely featured or offered for over an hour, his preserved energy was useful late on when he finally thought about coming to the party - really strange (non)performance Williams: busy, industrious, fragile, lightweight, skillful, tone down the headless chicken and get his head up he'll be lethal Taylor: another idiotic booking, worked so hard throughout, arrogant as all hell, POTY candidate Vetokele: well marshalled by hatters' huge CH, well clattered by a desperate goalie, class finally shone with the goal and the assist, fine reward for a fine player Referee: 60+ minutes of ludicrous crooked show pony excrement, what an absolute (no longer acceptable CL profantiy), last 10 or 15 minutes of the game looked something like a competent official, proving that all his earlier wrongdoings were deliberate. Narcissists like him are a cancer in the game.
Grant has 2 goals since 20 January. Both in the same game. Not counting the goal that wasn’t (his “first” for Hudders). His last outfield goal for us was 1 January (the last two were pens).
That goal was officially awareded to him, therefore it was his goal. He has scored 3 goals and has 1 assist since departing. (9 Games)
I got bored at lunch and just found this in my drafts as I sit on the throne at work...
Some fun strike force Stats!
2018/2019 All Comps (1. Taylor,2 Grant, 3 Vetokele) Vetokele P23 G4 A5 - 0.17 GPG - 0.21 APG (Directly involved in 0.39 GPG) Grant P38 G17 A6 - 0.43 GPG - 0.15 APG (Directly involved in 0.59 GPG) Taylor P39 G21 A9 - 0.53 GPG - 0.23 APG (Directly involved in 0.77 GPG)
Charlton Career Vetokele P84 G17 A15 - 0.20 GPG - 0.17 APG (Directly involved in 0.38 GPG) Grant P98 G21 A10 - 0.21 GPG - 0.10 APG (Directly involved in 0.31 GPG) Taylor P39 G21 A9 - 0.53 GPG - 0.17 APG (Directly involved in 0.77 GPG)
Screw the other two... We just need another Lyle Taylor!
Proverbial game of two 'alves .. in the second we were just sublime, the best performance I have seen for years .. every man deserves a 10/10+ except for Bielik who merits 11/10 .. I'm praying that he stays fit for the remainder of the season .. a supreme performance from him on Saturday .. Vetokele has found his missing mojo and Taylor having educated Grant is now doing the same for Igor .. I could go on and on, Sarr, Bauer, who not to mention .. just magnificent
BUT, Phillips's flying save towards the end of the 1st half was absolutely crucial .. would we have come back from 2 down ? .. thankfully we'll never know .. auto prom is still a possibility .. come on you Addicksssssaaaa
I can’t believe that anyone does not think that the assault on Vetokele 1st half was not a straight red. He was clearly out of control which is a red card. It was reckless, which is a red card, he bought down the last player in a goal scoring opportunity, which is a red card.
I thought we were the better side first half, but they scored a very good goal, Phillips saved a good shot, and they carved one just past the post.
It was not one way traffic though. As said, they should have had a straight red on what was a good scoring opportunity. Taylor was fouled as he then hit the crossbar.
Second half was just wow! Deffo penalty, but was surprised that the the ref spotted it. He had hold of Taylor and tripped him. Thought the Williams one was as well. A very good side were in full panick and lost a lot of control. They are still a good team, just not as good as us when we are full strength.
Hello, Hello, Igor is back, Igor is back!
Fantastic from Igor today. Love the guy and so good to see him score today.
Love Taylor. Not just the way he plays. It is the way he encourages and supports his team mates. Igor is back because of him, and the joy Taylor had in his goal was fantastic, and for his set up for his second. I think he is destined for greater things. Can see him being a politician of some sort. Natural leader and good man.
Great to meet CatAddict today as well. Thanks mate. Really appreciate it, hope to see you at Oxford. I will buy you a whole pint as well!
It clearly wasnt a red card, using your "language". You used the term "reckless", which defines a caution in the Laws of the Game. The tackle by a player which the referee defines as "using excessive force" is a red card. If that same foul committed by the keeper yesterday was committed on say the halfway line, nobody would be shouting for a red card. Supporter emotion often comes into play when a half chance was thwarted by a foul such as that undertaken by the keeper yesterday.
Nowhere near the ball and took the player out. Red card all day long. If you want confirmation, look at the comment further up this thread from the qualified ref.
I don’t know how it can be argued, it’s mind-boggling.
The laws clearly state that a player is to be sent off if, “denying an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent whose overall movement is towards the offender's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick”.
It could be said that the goalkeeper was guilty of serious foul play as the laws clearly state that a player is to be sent off if, “A tackle or challenge that endangers the safety of an opponent or uses excessive force or brutality must be sanctioned as serious foul play.
Any player who lunges at an opponent in challenging for the ball from the front, from the side or from behind using one or both legs, with excessive force or endangers the safety of an opponent is guilty of serious foul play.”
So it’s interesting how one referee, myself, has a contrasting view to another on here. Using the term, “reckless” is correct for this situation. It’s also interesting how you picked out one term that would favour your opinion but completely ignored another that was used that goes against the opinion that it was only a cautionable offence. But using the term “reckless” also suggests he may have been out of control, not necessarily always the case, but in this situation he was because he had no control of the situation, of his bodily movement and came flying out at Vetokele. He came at speed towards Vetokele, did not win the ball, denied a goal scoring opportunity, was out of control, was reckless, and all of these compiled together can be deemed to have resulted in an act of excessive force too.
It was a red card every single time.
Agree with you 100% Sage. The game of football needs consistency. Far too often one decision by one referee is penalised and an identical one by another not.
VAR needs to be involved at all levels where there is a financial outcome. Rugby, tennis and cricket all benefit from off field officiating. The exposure of Sky et al continue to highlight on field errors. Typically in football, the current VAR games are proving a bit of a mockery, far too protracted and made more complicated. Although in saying that, if it makes the difference between getting a right decision then it is worth it. Football needs to evolve, there is far too much gamesmanship nowadays.
Concerning the decision on Saturday, I think the ref bottled it. The challenge was late and potentially dangerous. He should have gone.
Will we grab hold of this opportunity? I doubt it with the owner we have. And he doesn't look like selling to anybody else! You don't find a manager who can do what Bowyer and his team is showing very often. You have to have the experience and knowledge to spot it and react to it or the chance goes. It is typical of Charlton that we have this opportunity with an idiot of an owner who wouldn't understand it if it came and punched him in the face!
Does he even know our league position and who play for us ?
I can’t believe that anyone does not think that the assault on Vetokele 1st half was not a straight red. He was clearly out of control which is a red card. It was reckless, which is a red card, he bought down the last player in a goal scoring opportunity, which is a red card.
I thought we were the better side first half, but they scored a very good goal, Phillips saved a good shot, and they carved one just past the post.
It was not one way traffic though. As said, they should have had a straight red on what was a good scoring opportunity. Taylor was fouled as he then hit the crossbar.
Second half was just wow! Deffo penalty, but was surprised that the the ref spotted it. He had hold of Taylor and tripped him. Thought the Williams one was as well. A very good side were in full panick and lost a lot of control. They are still a good team, just not as good as us when we are full strength.
Hello, Hello, Igor is back, Igor is back!
Fantastic from Igor today. Love the guy and so good to see him score today.
Love Taylor. Not just the way he plays. It is the way he encourages and supports his team mates. Igor is back because of him, and the joy Taylor had in his goal was fantastic, and for his set up for his second. I think he is destined for greater things. Can see him being a politician of some sort. Natural leader and good man.
Great to meet CatAddict today as well. Thanks mate. Really appreciate it, hope to see you at Oxford. I will buy you a whole pint as well!
It clearly wasnt a red card, using your "language". You used the term "reckless", which defines a caution in the Laws of the Game. The tackle by a player which the referee defines as "using excessive force" is a red card. If that same foul committed by the keeper yesterday was committed on say the halfway line, nobody would be shouting for a red card. Supporter emotion often comes into play when a half chance was thwarted by a foul such as that undertaken by the keeper yesterday.
I knew refs stuck together in their weird little bubble, but this is just taking the piss.
The praise Igor gets is a touch over the top imo. Before his goal on Saturday i thought he looked completly off the pace, suddenly a well taken goal and excellent assist which i did not see coming. Prove me wrong Igor
Comments
After all it seems unrealistic to expect opposition players not to celebrate a really important goal
It ludicruous it wasnt a sending off because he didnt have the ball anymore
Surely thats worse because it highlighted how late the challenge was!!
Personally I think Taylor is better than them both.
In terms of not having the ball, the run influenced what he did with the ball. Anyway, the bottom line should be that goalkeepers shouldn't be allowed to make challenges that outfield players can't and as somebody rightly pointed out, had Solly done that on the halfway line it would have been a straight red and nobody would be complaining on here. Fortunately Vetokele wasn't injured, but I think there was an element of self preservation from him - thank god - which changed his priority from scoring to not getting injured by the keeper's recklessness.
Agree on Taylor, he has the best all round game. Best striker since Yann and I’m confident he has plenty to offer in the Championship.
Solly: untroubled
Bauer: untroubled
Sarr: untroubled defensively and an attacking asset
Purrington: untroubled
Bielik: huge performance in the spine of the team, especially as he's not really fit
Cullen: huge performance in the spine of the team
Aribo: barely featured or offered for over an hour, his preserved energy was useful late on when he finally thought about coming to the party - really strange (non)performance
Williams: busy, industrious, fragile, lightweight, skillful, tone down the headless chicken and get his head up he'll be lethal
Taylor: another idiotic booking, worked so hard throughout, arrogant as all hell, POTY candidate
Vetokele: well marshalled by hatters' huge CH, well clattered by a desperate goalie, class finally shone with the goal and the assist, fine reward for a fine player
Referee: 60+ minutes of ludicrous crooked show pony excrement, what an absolute (no longer acceptable CL profantiy), last 10 or 15 minutes of the game looked something like a competent official, proving that all his earlier wrongdoings were deliberate. Narcissists like him are a cancer in the game.
I got bored at lunch and just found this in my drafts as I sit on the throne at work...
Some fun strike force Stats!
2018/2019 All Comps (1. Taylor,2 Grant, 3 Vetokele)
Vetokele P23 G4 A5 - 0.17 GPG - 0.21 APG (Directly involved in 0.39 GPG)
Grant P38 G17 A6 - 0.43 GPG - 0.15 APG (Directly involved in 0.59 GPG)
Taylor P39 G21 A9 - 0.53 GPG - 0.23 APG (Directly involved in 0.77 GPG)
Charlton Career
Vetokele P84 G17 A15 - 0.20 GPG - 0.17 APG (Directly involved in 0.38 GPG)
Grant P98 G21 A10 - 0.21 GPG - 0.10 APG (Directly involved in 0.31 GPG)
Taylor P39 G21 A9 - 0.53 GPG - 0.17 APG (Directly involved in 0.77 GPG)
Screw the other two... We just need another Lyle Taylor!
What does this actually mean, anyone, when you post just a full stop?
We have enough quality to go up even if it is via the playoffs. Hard to get too excited while RD is the owner.
BUT, Phillips's flying save towards the end of the 1st half was absolutely crucial .. would we have come back from 2 down ? .. thankfully we'll never know .. auto prom is still a possibility .. come on you Addicksssssaaaa
Phillips deserves incredible amounts of credit. We have to be honest and say he is better than Amos and Steer.
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/football/competitions/league-one/11693199/charlton-3-1-luton
Phillips has really proven me wrong. I thought he was cack. Pope was better and he proved me wrong too... You might say I judge keepers too early.
VAR needs to be involved at all levels where there is a financial outcome. Rugby, tennis and cricket all benefit from off field officiating. The exposure of Sky et al continue to highlight on field errors. Typically in football, the current VAR games are proving a bit of a mockery, far too protracted and made more complicated. Although in saying that, if it makes the difference between getting a right decision then it is worth it. Football needs to evolve, there is far too much gamesmanship nowadays.
Concerning the decision on Saturday, I think the ref bottled it. The challenge was late and potentially dangerous. He should have gone.