Tuff sentencing didn't stop people thieving when we had prison hulks, corporal punishment, capital punishment, deportation, solitary confinement, life long sentences or any other good ideas. All we have ever done is keep crime down to a level. We will never have zero crime, especially thieving. There is no magic answer but its not rocket science, if you cut funding/numbers/ boots on the ground what the effect will be. Maybe go the other way and have so many resources it would be impossible to commit crime, Big Brother style. I doubt there would be much appetite for that either.
It always amazes me that no government has ever said, we will go soft on crime. Plenty chirp up about being tough on crime or being a party of law and order while cutting the means to cut crime or come up with hair brain ideas.
I think what we are seeing now is the results of successive government over the last 70 years to take care of its people.
Post of the day so far. IMHO. Organized crime is on unprecedented levels and the authorities appear unable to control it. Watched some CCTV of the moped gang being knocked off their bikes and one actually run over whilst running away by a copper on a motorbike. Wonder how long before some shyster legal eagle will be offering to take his case for assault claiming thousands in compensation? The types of crime that we read about every day is not just confined to this country of course. Sadly, it ain't going to get better.
already happened .. but this is an internal disciplinary matter .. as usual, the 'troops/cops' on the street face losing their jobs and being sued, while the 'supervisors/bureaucrats' indulge in politics and appeasement
It is interesting how the government are so reluctant to bring in the kind of tough sentencing that, let's face it, a fair majority would like to see.
The statistics show that tough sentencing does not work that well, but you will always have those that believe what they believe, no matter what facts you put before them. That is until it is one of theirs who is picked out to be shot at dawn for getting involved in "a bad crowd"... But that's another story.
I am sure money is one reason - it costs a lot to keep people in prison - but I can see no reason that the tagging thing cannot be extended a lot further, why not ten years curfew?
I agree with the posters who suggest prevention is better than cure. So stop voting for politicians that cut police numbers (or who have no policy on policing at all...).
Depends what you mean by "work" and whether one thinks prison should be more for punishment, more for rehabilitation or equal measures of both.
Very interesting point. What's your view?
For me, prison is for three things. Punishment, rehabilitation and protection of the public. And longer jail sentences don't work unless they achieve all three.
As part of my professional life I was hosted by my sister charity in San Fransisco . They showed us a project which I think was called “ youth court”
a young person committing a crime ( some crimes eg murder were excluded) could choose to have their case heard by the youth court.
Every member of the youth court was a young person, apart from the judge, and part of the condition of involvement was the need to commit to serve the court process for a period regardless if the outcome of their trial
A central theme of the system was restorative justice ie the young person being brought face to face with the victims and seeing and hearing first hand the impact of their crime . It didn’t feel to me like a soft touch
The programme as I recall had won lots of awards and had one of the lowest recidivism rates of any programme in California
It was as humbling as it was illuminating. A court run by young people , hearing the cases of young people, determining the punishment of the guilty young people .
I sat on the jury at the Old Bailey, early 90’s, 3-4weeks, gang rape, group of lads on one of the gangs ex girlfriends as revenge/honour (they were all Asian) The lies, duplicity and sheer neck of the gangs briefs and QC was breathtaking, anything to win, even claims of racism because the police had the audacity to arrest them, despite the overwhelming evidence against them, all found guilty, never felt happier when we finished, but made me wary of the system ever since.
I sat on the jury at the Old Bailey, early 90’s, 3-4weeks, gang rape, group of lads on one of the gangs ex girlfriends as revenge/honour (they were all Asian) The lies, duplicity and sheer neck of the gangs briefs and QC was breathtaking, anything to win, even claims of racism because the police had the audacity to arrest them, despite the overwhelming evidence against them, all found guilty, never felt happier when we finished, but made me wary of the system ever since.
It sounds like they should have been tried by Asians and made to revisit their victim. It would have been so humbling for them that they'd forego all of their previous vileness
Depends what you mean by "work" and whether one thinks prison should be more for punishment, more for rehabilitation or equal measures of both.
Very interesting point. What's your view?
For me, prison is for three things. Punishment, rehabilitation and protection of the public. And longer jail sentences don't work unless they achieve all three.
Not really got a view other than, - out of the people I know who have spent time in prison, those (most) of them are generally good people, but slipped up and haven't generally gone on to re-offend. But, those who always seem to be on the wrong side of the law, and this seems to be acroos the board with this type of criminal, don't tend to give a shit about being locked up. It just goes with the territory. So imo, we've got a system that scares usually law abiding people to not ever slip up, but doesn't act as a deterrent to the people it should and as much as it should
shit sentances as per some of them will be out and up to no good within 2 years max, fuck rehabilition daily beatings would suffice there is no excuse for this behaviour unemployment in this country is at a 45 year low! so all the waffle about no opportunities etc the worlds out to get you is frankly guff - people behave in this manner because they think they are tough and its easy money and they are gangsters INIT!
8 years ago on a southeastern train home from work on a saturday evening around 5pm i had just got an ipad they had not long been out and was given it by work, between kidbrooke and eltham 3 chaps cornered me and pulled a knife and made me hand over my bag - dont know how they knew i had it - they then proceeded to give me a bit of a pasting and i ended up with a burst blood vessel in my eye and a fractured jaw, anyway stayed on the train got home the police then came round was quite angry and said something along the lines of hope they get a good hiding or something to that affect the police then had the audacity to say i couldn't talk like that LOL
i then had to go to waterloo police station as that was where the btp are stationed and watch cctv of it all again apparently they did catch them a couple of years later for something like 10/15 robberies across the network mostly of mobiles and laptops think they got 4 years each.
so when people give there opinion on how we should forgive and rehabilitate unless you have been a victim i do think your opinion is a little invalid the same as the pensioner that done in the chavvy that burgled his house - good on him - have been burgled twice and the house emptied - you enter someones home - they be the consequences i'm afraid.
I've been pretty fortunate to not have had to do jury service, a few members of my family have just hope I stay under the radar.
I have however had the misfortune to attend court as a defendant and as a witness and the system is busted. I genuinely believe courts grind people down by time wasting, boredom and generally mucking people about.
There are people who do stupid things and end up committing and offence and there are those who choose criminality as their profession and there is no punishment tough enough for them. The only think scum like these moped gangs understand and respect is violence, burglars and car thieves are the same, generally speaking they don't want or court confrontation, they want to be in and gone as quickly as possible. The more batterings they take the less they will want to rob a pensioners home.
I genuinely think that you can teach a majority of these people woodworking skills and IT skills etc., but it isn't like they're all going to be released to become a carpenter or work in IT is it? Some may and good luck to them, its worked, but i think a too larger peoportion would take up these activities to pass the time inside, with absolutely no intention of doing anything other than carrying on as they did before.
For what it's worth, I think this scheme of offenders meeting victims of crime (their own crimes) in person, is a great idea
Some really good points being made. @ i_b_b_o_r_g I think it right to recognise that there are going to be people that slip up and offend as a one off for any number of reasons. First and last offenders. These people should be treated Well and given all the help possible. My problem is with those that are repeat and repeat offenders. This is where the system needs to clamp with a vice like set of jaws. I want these people to be inside away from me and my loved ones and I dont want it cushy either. I still think a fifth (?) offence carries a ten year stretch.
I genuinely think that you can teach a majority of these people woodworking skills and IT skills etc., but it isn't like they're all going to be released to become a carpenter or work in IT is it? Some may and good luck to them, its worked, but i think a too larger peoportion would take up these activities to pass the time inside, with absolutely no intention of doing anything other than carrying on as they did before.
For what it's worth, I think this scheme of offenders meeting victims of crime (their own crimes) in person, is a great idea
Hmmm, £100k a year robbing, stealing and stabbing or £35k a year a s a carpenter.
I genuinely think that you can teach a majority of these people woodworking skills and IT skills etc., but it isn't like they're all going to be released to become a carpenter or work in IT is it? Some may and good luck to them, its worked, but i think a too larger peoportion would take up these activities to pass the time inside, with absolutely no intention of doing anything other than carrying on as they did before.
For what it's worth, I think this scheme of offenders meeting victims of crime (their own crimes) in person, is a great idea
Hmmm, £100k a year robbing, stealing and stabbing or £35k a year a s a carpenter.
Theyve become used to the money and lifestyle.
No going back.
Very very few criminals pull in £100,000 a year. That’s not to say there aren’t some who do....or even gangs who do. You may be thinking that because they steal or obtain £100,000 worth of goods that’s what they walk away with. In reality I wouldn’t think for one moment that’s anything like what they would receive in return for their efforts when passing it on......which of course they have to do.
Ive read this thread with interest, what I find astounding is the defence of the little cherubs who take the decision to belong to these types of gangs, or people who offend more than once. There have not been many comments on the victims of these types of crime.
A very good friend of mine is 6'2", lovely fella, outgoing personality, by no means a fighting man, he will avoid confrontation at all costs, a real gentle giant. About 5 years ago he was mugged by 3 blokes, 2 with knives and one carrying a hammer. He gave them what they wanted, phone, wallet, watch, pin numbers to his cards etc, once he handed over the items, they gave him a bit of a kicking, at the time he was under the beating he thought he was being stabbed, but it was just fists and boot, but he thought he was going to die.
Five years later he doesn't go out much, he is traumatised. It has affected him to such a degree that he is now prone to anxiety attacks especially if he goes out at night, this is 5 years later and it will go on for a lot longer, let that sink in....... They never caught the scum that did this, but even if they did what would the get, a short prison sentence, probably community service? My mate will live with this for the rest of this life, and there are thousands more who do the same, thousands. I read that this current government is planning to scrap any custodial sentence under the one year tariff, so it would be tags or other 'punishment'.
So I dont care about rehabilitation, I dont care about criminals 'rights', Im not interested in their reason/excuses for turning to crime.
Most people know right from wrong, most people make conscious decisions to rob, stab or kill someone, people should be made accountable for their actions, so start given these shits long sentences, 25 years, build more and bigger prisons, take them off the streets, chuck them all inside for a very long time, let them rot. Make it known that this is the fate that awaits a life of crime, and lets focus on the victims of these vile bastards.
I genuinely think that you can teach a majority of these people woodworking skills and IT skills etc., but it isn't like they're all going to be released to become a carpenter or work in IT is it? Some may and good luck to them, its worked, but i think a too larger peoportion would take up these activities to pass the time inside, with absolutely no intention of doing anything other than carrying on as they did before.
For what it's worth, I think this scheme of offenders meeting victims of crime (their own crimes) in person, is a great idea
Hmmm, £100k a year robbing, stealing and stabbing or £35k a year a s a carpenter.
Theyve become used to the money and lifestyle.
No going back.
Very very few criminals pull in £100,000 a year. That’s not to say there aren’t some who do....or even gangs who do. You may be thinking that because they steal or obtain £100,000 worth of goods that’s what they walk away with. In reality I wouldn’t think for one moment that’s anything like what they would receive in return for their efforts when passing it on......which of course they have to do.
I think the £100k a year figure is the "holly grail" and what these people think they can earn once they're at the top, or get better. Don't be mistaken though, it's common knowledge in some quarters that some of these gangs generate bucket loads of dough. Remember the lad who was in "The Woolwich Boys" who was making grime videos with all the cash and top of the range motors in them, he was all of about 16 years old. The videos were used as evidence to get him locked up, although I don't think his fellow gangbangers were too impressed, so was for his own good.
I know a bloke who has regular contact with these people and he's always said that "Joe Public" don't know half of what these gangs get up to and the sums involved, and most of it under the nose of the police. For the same reason as the grooming gangs, but for different types of crimes.
Ive read this thread with interest, what I find astounding is the defence of the little cherubs who take the decision to belong to these types of gangs, or people who offend more than once. There have not been many comments on the victims of these types of crime.
A very good friend of mine is 6'2", lovely fella, outgoing personality, by no means a fighting man, he will avoid confrontation at all costs, a real gentle giant. About 5 years ago he was mugged by 3 blokes, 2 with knives and one carrying a hammer. He gave them what they wanted, phone, wallet, watch, pin numbers to his cards etc, once he handed over the items, they gave him a bit of a kicking, at the time he was under the beating he thought he was being stabbed, but it was just fists and boot, but he thought he was going to die.
Five years later he doesn't go out much, he is traumatised. It has affected him to such a degree that he is now prone to anxiety attacks especially if he goes out at night, this is 5 years later and it will go on for a lot longer, let that sink in....... They never caught the scum that did this, but even if they did what would the get, a short prison sentence, probably community service? My mate will live with this for the rest of this life, and there are thousands more who do the same, thousands. I read that this current government is planning to scrap any custodial sentence under the one year tariff, so it would be tags or other 'punishment'.
So I dont care about rehabilitation, I dont care about criminals 'rights', Im not interested in their reason/excuses for turning to crime.
Most people know right from wrong, most people make conscious decisions to rob, stab or kill someone, people should be made accountable for their actions, so start given these shits long sentences, 25 years, build more and bigger prisons, take them off the streets, chuck them all inside for a very long time, let them rot. Make it known that this is the fate that awaits a life of crime, and lets focus on the victims of these vile bastards.
....there's a great couple of documentaries on YouTube about moped gangs and drug gangs. In one, the police launch a raid on a gang dealing outside a row of shops, with seconds, the "local community" are out, pointing the finger at and arguing with the police.
....there's a great couple of documentaries on YouTube about moped gangs and drug gangs. In one, the police launch a raid on a gang dealing outside a row of shops, with seconds, the "local community" are out, pointing the finger at and arguing with the police.
Yep and their mums and dads sticking up for the little .....
Comments
Pedant ; almost certainly ; Reactionary - Fraid not
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6942507/Five-police-officers-face-criminal-charges-lose-jobs-ramming-moped-thugs.html
I get the feeling that you, maybe, took my post a bit too seriously.
The statistics show that tough sentencing does not work that well, but you will always have those that believe what they believe, no matter what facts you put before them. That is until it is one of theirs who is picked out to be shot at dawn for getting involved in "a bad crowd"... But that's another story.
I am sure money is one reason - it costs a lot to keep people in prison - but I can see no reason that the tagging thing cannot be extended a lot further, why not ten years curfew?
I agree with the posters who suggest prevention is better than cure. So stop voting for politicians that cut police numbers (or who have no policy on policing at all...).
I get the feeling that you, maybe, took my post a bit too seriously. He was being reactionary
Career criminals and repeat offenders? The time and money would, and could, be better spent elsewhere.
For me, prison is for three things. Punishment, rehabilitation and protection of the public. And longer jail sentences don't work unless they achieve all three.
As part of my professional life I was hosted by my sister charity in San Fransisco . They showed us a project which I think was called “ youth court”
a young person committing a crime ( some crimes eg murder were excluded) could choose to have their case heard by the youth court.
Every member of the youth court was a young person, apart from the judge, and part of the condition of involvement was the need to commit to serve the court process for a period regardless if the outcome of their trial
A central theme of the system was restorative justice ie the young person being brought face to face with the victims and seeing and hearing first hand the impact of their crime . It didn’t feel to me like a soft touch
The programme as I recall had won lots of awards and had one of the lowest recidivism rates of any programme in California
It was as humbling as it was illuminating. A court run by young people , hearing the cases of young people, determining the punishment of the guilty young people .
The lies, duplicity and sheer neck of the gangs briefs and QC was breathtaking, anything to win, even claims of racism because the police had the audacity to arrest them, despite the overwhelming evidence against them, all found guilty, never felt happier when we finished, but made me wary of the system ever since.
It sounds like they should have been tried by Asians and made to revisit their victim. It would have been so humbling for them that they'd forego all of their previous vileness
Come on, then. Own up. Who decided to be the post-police and deleted my tongue in cheek reactionary to reactionaries post?
8 years ago on a southeastern train home from work on a saturday evening around 5pm i had just got an ipad they had not long been out and was given it by work, between kidbrooke and eltham 3 chaps cornered me and pulled a knife and made me hand over my bag - dont know how they knew i had it - they then proceeded to give me a bit of a pasting and i ended up with a burst blood vessel in my eye and a fractured jaw, anyway stayed on the train got home the police then came round was quite angry and said something along the lines of hope they get a good hiding or something to that affect the police then had the audacity to say i couldn't talk like that LOL
i then had to go to waterloo police station as that was where the btp are stationed and watch cctv of it all again apparently they did catch them a couple of years later for something like 10/15 robberies across the network mostly of mobiles and laptops think they got 4 years each.
so when people give there opinion on how we should forgive and rehabilitate unless you have been a victim i do think your opinion is a little invalid the same as the pensioner that done in the chavvy that burgled his house - good on him - have been burgled twice and the house emptied - you enter someones home - they be the consequences i'm afraid.
I have however had the misfortune to attend court as a defendant and as a witness and the system is busted. I genuinely believe courts grind people down by time wasting, boredom and generally mucking people about.
There are people who do stupid things and end up committing and offence and there are those who choose criminality as their profession and there is no punishment tough enough for them. The only think scum like these moped gangs understand and respect is violence, burglars and car thieves are the same, generally speaking they don't want or court confrontation, they want to be in and gone as quickly as possible. The more batterings they take the less they will want to rob a pensioners home.
For what it's worth, I think this scheme of offenders meeting victims of crime (their own crimes) in person, is a great idea
and given all the help possible. My problem is with those that are repeat and repeat offenders. This is where the system needs to clamp with a vice like set of jaws. I want these people to be inside away from me and my loved ones and I dont want it cushy either. I still think a fifth (?) offence carries a ten year stretch.
Theyve become used to the money and lifestyle.
No going back.
That’s not to say there aren’t some who do....or even gangs who do.
You may be thinking that because they steal or obtain £100,000 worth of goods that’s what they walk away with. In reality I wouldn’t think for one moment that’s anything like what they would receive in return for their efforts when passing it on......which of course they have to do.
I read that this current government is planning to scrap any custodial sentence under the one year tariff, so it would be tags or other 'punishment'.
So I dont care about rehabilitation, I dont care about criminals 'rights', Im not interested in their reason/excuses for turning to crime.
I know a bloke who has regular contact with these people and he's always said that "Joe Public" don't know half of what these gangs get up to and the sums involved, and most of it under the nose of the police. For the same reason as the grooming gangs, but for different types of crimes.
*stands up and applauds*