As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Shame about your last sentence. Bit insulting.
In a previous post on here you labelled yourself a bloke in a picture that was posted. Was that picture taken before you transitioned?
I have just read that article and it genuinely sickens me.
How many times do we have to read stuff like this? It's genuinely xenophobic and it would be easy to conclude that language like that is actually intended to cause offence and be as divisive as possible.
For those that have read it, I am truly disappointed and saddened that you've been exposed to neanderthal imagery and biased, schismatic rhetoric.
And for anyone who hasn't yet read it: be warned. I am going to repeat it here, just to emphasise the point. So, if it causes offence, please understand that it's only by pointing out the terribke language like this, that you get to make changes. Unless we call out people who communicate in this way, we will never see the change we want to see.
The article actually describes Ricky Gervais using the phrase "the creator of the UK version of The Office". Absolutely unnecessary and unforgivable.
(As far as the waxing thing is concerned, just get on with it. And don't discriminate between customers based on their gender. It's pretty simple).
“Should a woman be forced by law to touch a penis she doesn’t want to touch?” is the crux of this case really. It shouldn’t be considered discriminatory if a female waxer doesn’t want to touch a male sexual organ that she doesn’t want to.
Forcing women, by ways of some sort of anti-discriminatory law, to touch a penis they don’t want to would be very odd.
It's either ok to discriminate between customers based on their gender, or it's not. I suggest it's not.
In other circumstances, bus drivers were upset at having to allow "coloreds" to sit wherever they wanted to in a bus. Eventually, it was decided that the rights of the passengers were seen as more important than the feelings of the bus drivers.
There is no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender. So there would never be a question of "forcing a woman" to do this.
I think that customers shouldn't be discriminated against by their gender.
This specific case, which I read on a more new-sy site than the rather sensationalist one linked at the top of the thread, had the person in question going after specific female beauticians because they refused to wax their penis. Hence what I was saying with said person trying to force their will upon certain women. There are, apparently, waxing places that are happy to work on males/females/anyone who would have done it for the person - common sense dictates going to those shops rather than work-at-home female beauticians who don't offer a penis-waxing service and then suing them because they refused to touch what is literally a penis.
The racist bus drivers from back in the day were clearly in the wrong but unless they were being asked to touch a penis against their will rather than just sit near someone, it's a ridiculous comparison. The rights of the passengers to ride a bus are of course legally enshrined now and it's crazy it ever wasn't.
Nobody has the right to insist a person touch their penis when they don't want to.
I wasn't aware of that element. This alters the story significantly, in my view and, to some agree is aligned with what I posted about there being no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender.
The important thing about the racist bus drivers is that, actually, they weren't doing anything wrong. They were acting completely within the law (at the time). The law changed and, subsequently, they were no longer allowed to discriminate in that way.
I would argue that it's right not to discriminate against customers based on their gender. I know that not everyone will agree. (But it's refreshing that at least some people can avoid the ad hominems and, instead argue the case).
It works both ways for customers and providers of services. If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - you surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion how will you deal with healthcare? Is the term gynaecologist now redundant if gender is to be determined by each individual and presumably can vary from day to day. How far do you want to take this nonsense?
If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - I think it does (if by "a beautician" you mean a business; but if you mean an individual, female beautician, I think she should have the right not to offer that service).
You surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to - yes, I can (if you mean individual, female beauticians, as above)
And on the healthcare question?
What's the specific question? Is it "is the term gynaecologist redundant?" If so, my answer is no, I don't think so.
No, I can't "I would argue that it's right not to discriminate against customers based on their gender" would still suggest you believe a woman does not have the right to work with a customer, based on their gender.
OK.
Well, have a look at the bit where I said "there would never be a question of "forcing a woman" to do this" and then consider whether you still think I "think it's ok to force a woman to touch a penis, that she does't want to touch".
Just so that it's completely clear (although I thought it already was) I don't think it's ok to force a woman to touch a penis that she doesn't want to".
Now, if you still think that I think that, I will have to find some other way of disabusing you of that thought. But I am not sure how I will be able to, really.
Then it's ok to discriminate against customers based on their gender, you can't have it both ways
One, final time. It's not ok for a business to discriminate against a customer, based on the customer's gender. However, I would contend that it is perfectly appropriate for an individual beautician to choose not to treat a customer on that basis.
You might agree, you might not. I am now beyond caring.
I have just read that article and it genuinely sickens me.
How many times do we have to read stuff like this? It's genuinely xenophobic and it would be easy to conclude that language like that is actually intended to cause offence and be as divisive as possible.
For those that have read it, I am truly disappointed and saddened that you've been exposed to neanderthal imagery and biased, schismatic rhetoric.
And for anyone who hasn't yet read it: be warned. I am going to repeat it here, just to emphasise the point. So, if it causes offence, please understand that it's only by pointing out the terribke language like this, that you get to make changes. Unless we call out people who communicate in this way, we will never see the change we want to see.
The article actually describes Ricky Gervais using the phrase "the creator of the UK version of The Office". Absolutely unnecessary and unforgivable.
(As far as the waxing thing is concerned, just get on with it. And don't discriminate between customers based on their gender. It's pretty simple).
“Should a woman be forced by law to touch a penis she doesn’t want to touch?” is the crux of this case really. It shouldn’t be considered discriminatory if a female waxer doesn’t want to touch a male sexual organ that she doesn’t want to.
Forcing women, by ways of some sort of anti-discriminatory law, to touch a penis they don’t want to would be very odd.
It's either ok to discriminate between customers based on their gender, or it's not. I suggest it's not.
In other circumstances, bus drivers were upset at having to allow "coloreds" to sit wherever they wanted to in a bus. Eventually, it was decided that the rights of the passengers were seen as more important than the feelings of the bus drivers.
There is no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender. So there would never be a question of "forcing a woman" to do this.
I think that customers shouldn't be discriminated against by their gender.
This specific case, which I read on a more new-sy site than the rather sensationalist one linked at the top of the thread, had the person in question going after specific female beauticians because they refused to wax their penis. Hence what I was saying with said person trying to force their will upon certain women. There are, apparently, waxing places that are happy to work on males/females/anyone who would have done it for the person - common sense dictates going to those shops rather than work-at-home female beauticians who don't offer a penis-waxing service and then suing them because they refused to touch what is literally a penis.
The racist bus drivers from back in the day were clearly in the wrong but unless they were being asked to touch a penis against their will rather than just sit near someone, it's a ridiculous comparison. The rights of the passengers to ride a bus are of course legally enshrined now and it's crazy it ever wasn't.
Nobody has the right to insist a person touch their penis when they don't want to.
I wasn't aware of that element. This alters the story significantly, in my view and, to some agree is aligned with what I posted about there being no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender.
The important thing about the racist bus drivers is that, actually, they weren't doing anything wrong. They were acting completely within the law (at the time). The law changed and, subsequently, they were no longer allowed to discriminate in that way.
I would argue that it's right not to discriminate against customers based on their gender. I know that not everyone will agree. (But it's refreshing that at least some people can avoid the ad hominems and, instead argue the case).
It works both ways for customers and providers of services. If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - you surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion how will you deal with healthcare? Is the term gynaecologist now redundant if gender is to be determined by each individual and presumably can vary from day to day. How far do you want to take this nonsense?
If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - I think it does (if by "a beautician" you mean a business; but if you mean an individual, female beautician, I think she should have the right not to offer that service).
You surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to - yes, I can (if you mean individual, female beauticians, as above)
And on the healthcare question?
What's the specific question? Is it "is the term gynaecologist redundant?" If so, my answer is no, I don't think so.
So if I have male genitalia and self identify as a woman should I see a gynaecologist?
Should I be allowed to be on an all female ward and do the other patients have a right to know?
Should I be allowed to be in a women's prison if convicted?
Etc
Whatever the rights are there are obviously issues that can occur if the situation is abused. Debate needs to address this.
As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
I have just read that article and it genuinely sickens me.
How many times do we have to read stuff like this? It's genuinely xenophobic and it would be easy to conclude that language like that is actually intended to cause offence and be as divisive as possible.
For those that have read it, I am truly disappointed and saddened that you've been exposed to neanderthal imagery and biased, schismatic rhetoric.
And for anyone who hasn't yet read it: be warned. I am going to repeat it here, just to emphasise the point. So, if it causes offence, please understand that it's only by pointing out the terribke language like this, that you get to make changes. Unless we call out people who communicate in this way, we will never see the change we want to see.
The article actually describes Ricky Gervais using the phrase "the creator of the UK version of The Office". Absolutely unnecessary and unforgivable.
(As far as the waxing thing is concerned, just get on with it. And don't discriminate between customers based on their gender. It's pretty simple).
“Should a woman be forced by law to touch a penis she doesn’t want to touch?” is the crux of this case really. It shouldn’t be considered discriminatory if a female waxer doesn’t want to touch a male sexual organ that she doesn’t want to.
Forcing women, by ways of some sort of anti-discriminatory law, to touch a penis they don’t want to would be very odd.
It's either ok to discriminate between customers based on their gender, or it's not. I suggest it's not.
In other circumstances, bus drivers were upset at having to allow "coloreds" to sit wherever they wanted to in a bus. Eventually, it was decided that the rights of the passengers were seen as more important than the feelings of the bus drivers.
There is no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender. So there would never be a question of "forcing a woman" to do this.
I think that customers shouldn't be discriminated against by their gender.
This specific case, which I read on a more new-sy site than the rather sensationalist one linked at the top of the thread, had the person in question going after specific female beauticians because they refused to wax their penis. Hence what I was saying with said person trying to force their will upon certain women. There are, apparently, waxing places that are happy to work on males/females/anyone who would have done it for the person - common sense dictates going to those shops rather than work-at-home female beauticians who don't offer a penis-waxing service and then suing them because they refused to touch what is literally a penis.
The racist bus drivers from back in the day were clearly in the wrong but unless they were being asked to touch a penis against their will rather than just sit near someone, it's a ridiculous comparison. The rights of the passengers to ride a bus are of course legally enshrined now and it's crazy it ever wasn't.
Nobody has the right to insist a person touch their penis when they don't want to.
I wasn't aware of that element. This alters the story significantly, in my view and, to some agree is aligned with what I posted about there being no legal insistence that the person administering the treatment is a specific gender.
The important thing about the racist bus drivers is that, actually, they weren't doing anything wrong. They were acting completely within the law (at the time). The law changed and, subsequently, they were no longer allowed to discriminate in that way.
I would argue that it's right not to discriminate against customers based on their gender. I know that not everyone will agree. (But it's refreshing that at least some people can avoid the ad hominems and, instead argue the case).
It works both ways for customers and providers of services. If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - you surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to.
If you take this argument to its logical conclusion how will you deal with healthcare? Is the term gynaecologist now redundant if gender is to be determined by each individual and presumably can vary from day to day. How far do you want to take this nonsense?
If you self identify as a woman despite having a full set of male genitalia does that mean a beautician has to treat you - I think it does (if by "a beautician" you mean a business; but if you mean an individual, female beautician, I think she should have the right not to offer that service).
You surely can understand why some beauticians wouldn't want to - yes, I can (if you mean individual, female beauticians, as above)
And on the healthcare question?
What's the specific question? Is it "is the term gynaecologist redundant?" If so, my answer is no, I don't think so.
So if I have male genitalia and self identify as a woman should I see a gynaecologist?
Should I be allowed to be on an all female ward and do the other patients have a right to know?
Should I be allowed to be in a women's prison if convicted?
Etc
Whatever the rights are there are obviously issues that can occur if the situation is abused. Debate needs to address this.
There are sometimes no clear answers.
OK, I will have a go at some of those!
I once saw, on Charlton Life, a proctologist described (I can't remember who, but whoever it was deserved the "likes" they got) as an "arse doctor". I think that phrase works much better than proctologist, because it explains the part of the body you need treated. If you have an arse and it needs treatment, you see an arse doctor. The word "gynaecologist" doesn't have this same advantage. But it's clear that a gynaecologist treats specific, defined parts of the body. If you don't have those parts, you shouldn't need to see one.
I think you should be allowed on a female ward in those circumstances. I don't think other patients have a right to know that - or, pretty much anything else - about you. (There are several, associated questions that touch on this subject. For example, what "type" of ward should a man going through gender realignment surgery be admitted to? Should a patient of any gender have the right to refuse being placed on a mixed-gender ward? Does a patient have a "right" to be formally informed of the gender of everyone on their ward?)
The prison bit I really don't know the answer to. Should incarcerated women have to share their accommodation with someone whom they suspect might assault them sexually? Of course not. But neither should men. It's an imponderable, I think.
Are there any kind of statistics as to what percentage of the population may identify as a gender different to which they were born?
Most people (in the US, aged 18-34) see gender as a spectrum, not as binary. Most people (56%) between 13-20 know someone who uses gender-neutral pronouns. One person in eight (12%) identifies as transgender or gender non-conforming.
As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
Hi @johnnybev1987 - you've posted some really interesting, thought-provoking stuff here. You give the impression that,, although you're "outside" the LGBT community, you really want to understand it better than you do. I think that's absolutely laudable. You sound like you would make a really good "LGBT ally".
I don't want to seem too critical, because you come across as someone who absolutely doesn't want to discriminate. But, I think your comment comes across as a bit privileged. Because you've said this "it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like" (which, incidentally, is the best thing I have read on this thread), but then you have said "it is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case". That comes across as if you're saying "I am absolutely fine with everyone, as long as they only say the things I am happy with".
I don't want to come across as too critical, as you seem to have a really, really good attitude. (But sometimes it's the little things that unknowingly cause issues).
What if the company is an individual person, or all employees are woman? I'm amazed you don't see the problem with what you're saying.
No problem Stu. My intention would be for the rights of the individual to trump the obligations of the business. So if it's your own business, you get to choose.
As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
Hi @johnnybev1987 - you've posted some really interesting, thought-provoking stuff here. You give the impression that,, although you're "outside" the LGBT community, you really want to understand it better than you do. I think that's absolutely laudable. You sound like you would make a really good "LGBT ally".
I don't want to seem too critical, because you come across as someone who absolutely doesn't want to discriminate. But, I think your comment comes across as a bit privileged. Because you've said this "it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like" (which, incidentally, is the best thing I have read on this thread), but then you have said "it is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case". That comes across as if you're saying "I am absolutely fine with everyone, as long as they only say the things I am happy with".
I don't want to come across as too critical, as you seem to have a really, really good attitude. (But sometimes it's the little things that unknowingly cause issues).
Never heard of that group if im honest, I don't know whether that's a compliment or just again putting people in a bracket for the hell of it.
Unfortunately I am not that educated on these matters and only really deal from personal experience, when I was younger like most I was more narrow minded about it. Now I understand bits, but still I have never experienced anything, so essentially I will always take on board all comments.
By it doesn't bother me, is I just don't see why people need to label. This in itself to me creates some of the stuff which could be referred to prejudice, although I do understand why people do it just I wont often refer to a specific group of people.
This is why I am stating my opinion, I generally can be quite ignorant with normal world stuff like politics unless it directly affects me. I can be an ally if that's what they call it
In response to my transgender friend/ associate this is an isolated case, I have talked to him a lot at the beginning of it and again bare no resentment as the change itself 'doesn't bother me' nor should it matter, my whole point about them was suddenly their whole personality changed, when people would talk about literally anything they would always put a spin on it down to their transition and literally overdoing it. A lot of it feels like they are trying to prove something which again they don't have to as I have a good circle of friends, although I cant again describe how hard it is to live a day in their life.
As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
Hi @johnnybev1987 - you've posted some really interesting, thought-provoking stuff here. You give the impression that,, although you're "outside" the LGBT community, you really want to understand it better than you do. I think that's absolutely laudable. You sound like you would make a really good "LGBT ally".
I don't want to seem too critical, because you come across as someone who absolutely doesn't want to discriminate. But, I think your comment comes across as a bit privileged. Because you've said this "it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like" (which, incidentally, is the best thing I have read on this thread), but then you have said "it is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case". That comes across as if you're saying "I am absolutely fine with everyone, as long as they only say the things I am happy with".
I don't want to come across as too critical, as you seem to have a really, really good attitude. (But sometimes it's the little things that unknowingly cause issues).
Never heard of that group if im honest, I don't know whether that's a compliment or just again putting people in a bracket for the hell of it.
Unfortunately I am not that educated on these matters and only really deal from personal experience, when I was younger like most I was more narrow minded about it. Now I understand bits, but still I have never experienced anything, so essentially I will always take on board all comments.
By it doesn't bother me, is I just don't see why people need to label. This in itself to me creates some of the stuff which could be referred to prejudice, although I do understand why people do it just I wont often refer to a specific group of people.
This is why I am stating my opinion, I generally can be quite ignorant with normal world stuff like politics unless it directly affects me. I can be an ally if that's what they call it
In response to my transgender friend/ associate this is an isolated case, I have talked to him a lot at the beginning of it and again bare no resentment as the change itself 'doesn't bother me' nor should it matter, my whole point about them was suddenly their whole personality changed, when people would talk about literally anything they would always put a spin on it down to their transition and literally overdoing it. A lot of it feels like they are trying to prove something which again they don't have to as I have a good circle of friends, although I cant again describe how hard it is to live a day in their life.
It was absolutely, 100%, completely and totally meant as a compliment.
As someone, who lives and works as a trans women im happy to have debates like this. while people like me have been around in all societies since time began its only now we are being recognised in the current society. Past cultures have accepted us no problem. I do not put my life down peoples throats (some bone head will comment on that) its actually the other way round. I actually agree that no woman or man should be forced to touch anothers bits. But many people would disagree if the woman or man advertises as waxing. The same applies, is it ok for a hotelier not to allow people of colour or gingers or people who shop at Tesco. the issue of gender is huge,but as a society we need that debate. Unfortunatly it will be to much for the homophobic, transphobic fans on here
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
Hi @johnnybev1987 - you've posted some really interesting, thought-provoking stuff here. You give the impression that,, although you're "outside" the LGBT community, you really want to understand it better than you do. I think that's absolutely laudable. You sound like you would make a really good "LGBT ally".
I don't want to seem too critical, because you come across as someone who absolutely doesn't want to discriminate. But, I think your comment comes across as a bit privileged. Because you've said this "it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like" (which, incidentally, is the best thing I have read on this thread), but then you have said "it is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case". That comes across as if you're saying "I am absolutely fine with everyone, as long as they only say the things I am happy with".
I don't want to come across as too critical, as you seem to have a really, really good attitude. (But sometimes it's the little things that unknowingly cause issues).
Never heard of that group if im honest, I don't know whether that's a compliment or just again putting people in a bracket for the hell of it.
Unfortunately I am not that educated on these matters and only really deal from personal experience, when I was younger like most I was more narrow minded about it. Now I understand bits, but still I have never experienced anything, so essentially I will always take on board all comments.
By it doesn't bother me, is I just don't see why people need to label. This in itself to me creates some of the stuff which could be referred to prejudice, although I do understand why people do it just I wont often refer to a specific group of people.
This is why I am stating my opinion, I generally can be quite ignorant with normal world stuff like politics unless it directly affects me. I can be an ally if that's what they call it
In response to my transgender friend/ associate this is an isolated case, I have talked to him a lot at the beginning of it and again bare no resentment as the change itself 'doesn't bother me' nor should it matter, my whole point about them was suddenly their whole personality changed, when people would talk about literally anything they would always put a spin on it down to their transition and literally overdoing it. A lot of it feels like they are trying to prove something which again they don't have to as I have a good circle of friends, although I cant again describe how hard it is to live a day in their life.
It was absolutely, 100%, completely and totally meant as a compliment.
Fair enough mate, not always sure written. Seemed like either a compliment or a back handed one lol
I did add more about the specific case with my Trans friend btw, I missed that point from your original post
Sorry curb it, the last thing I wanted to be was insulting . Excuse my bad grammar and the fact I’m on an iPhone and limited time .it was aimed at the transphobes on here . Yes there was a picture of me on here when I presented as male . Transgender is not a choice it is the way we are born. I always ask people when did they choose their skin colour , because that’s the choice we had . I presented as male for most of my life through fear . I told my mum when I was about 6 . I’m now in my 60s. In those days we were viewed as mentally ill . There is a great increase now in people coming out as people are more accepting . But it’s still not good . Trans hate crime has risen 81% since the Brexit vote according to the latest police figures. To answer suede Adidas . It was 0.25% of the population a few years ago . The last time I saw it is now about 1% . Depending who’s figures you read. Someone asked what is a man or a woman . That of course is the whole conundrum . There are plenty of books and academic papers on the subject , which a worth a look . It’s impossibe to put a whole polemic in a few sentances . Someone else said a cock is a man a vagina a woman . What I don’t believe is that our genitalia defines us . I’m more than sadly never wanted cock and balls. I have loves and dislikes , views and opinions etc etc . If someone wants to be a walking cock , then that’s fine too . If people are genuinely interested give “ Paris lees” a look. Some of her online stuff is quite interesting . I’m sorry if anyone thinks I’m ramming this down their throat , I’m answering questions . Please don’t think trans is a choice it’s not . It bloody tragic and scary . Every time I leave the house I don’t know what I’m going to face. I have a season ticket for my beloved Charlton . But doubtful il be going because I’m scared . Going to the loo is frightening . Like every walk of life there are arseholes . They are in the trans community too. When something not good happens we all get tarred with the same brush . Without people thinking it through or finding out the real facts .
I have a cousin that transitioned very early 90s. Big news then. I didn’t really understand any of it to be honest back then. I didn’t know her well at the time. I have 46 cousins so not a particularly close family. We all lost contact. We Met up recently. I wouldn’t say she’s found happiness but definitely happier living as she is. But she is a very complex character, that’s how I came away feeling.
If you’ve had a season ticket before why will you be too scared to go back to the valley now?
We are complex by the nature of the problem and it’s only a problem because of non acceptance . Between 46-49% of trans teenagers attempt suicide . That is a huge figure but never discussed . The media is more interested in feeding antitrans stuff , like having your cock waxed ( though that is important too , if your so inclined ) also never discussed are the female to male trans . You have probably stood next to one in the toilet and never new . Where as trans women of course stand out and are often held up to redicule . It’s near enough a 50/50 split F to M and M to F . While I have always been trans bit hidden and in private . The last 3 yrs I’ve been going out more and more , until a few months ago deciding to Come out full time . It’s quite scary . Things like the cartoon earlier in this thread though “ just a joke “ reinforces transphobia . Makes it fun to throw comments at us cos it’s “ just a joke “ The next step is to throw punches at us with the mates laughing cos it’s “ funny”. I hope this explains a bit why I won’t be at the valley . It’s not an easy choice the Addicks have been a part of my life for 55 yrs . Thanks for your intrest . If only more people took the time to find what we are about would make life easier .
Ok understood why you are nervous. That sounds like a big leap from keeping it hidden to going out in public. I hope you feel liberated and enjoy your life as you are.
Unfortunately this conversation got sunk before your comments due to our bickering. So don’t take it personally. I’m sure there was a reason for sinking? @cabbles
Not taking it personally at all . I just felt I had to respond. People always always talk about tran “ stuff “ but no one ever asks us or listens to us . Let’s hope the yellow toothed old git sells the club .
Scary stuff. In my old local, a 6'3" 16 stone TG insisted on using the ladies standing up despite not having the op and was vilified. Had to agree but obviously mental issues in play. But hey, if you are an Addick, come along, use disabled toilets.
Funny how all the trans stories are negative . We are also always 6’ 3 “ and doing something wrong . I never hear on forums of the trans who work with kids , who do voluntary work in the community etc . Thanks Harvey’s gardener for welcoming me to the valley . I use gender neutral and disabled toilets whenever I can ( a lot of trans will throw their hands up in horror ) . But males have a tendency to get very brave when they are in a group as I’m sure your own experiance will tell you .
Sorry curb it, the last thing I wanted to be was insulting . Excuse my bad grammar and the fact I’m on an iPhone and limited time .it was aimed at the transphobes on here . Yes there was a picture of me on here when I presented as male . Transgender is not a choice it is the way we are born. I always ask people when did they choose their skin colour , because that’s the choice we had . I presented as male for most of my life through fear . I told my mum when I was about 6 . I’m now in my 60s. In those days we were viewed as mentally ill . There is a great increase now in people coming out as people are more accepting . But it’s still not good . Trans hate crime has risen 81% since the Brexit vote according to the latest police figures. To answer suede Adidas . It was 0.25% of the population a few years ago . The last time I saw it is now about 1% . Depending who’s figures you read. Someone asked what is a man or a woman . That of course is the whole conundrum . There are plenty of books and academic papers on the subject , which a worth a look . It’s impossibe to put a whole polemic in a few sentances . Someone else said a cock is a man a vagina a woman . What I don’t believe is that our genitalia defines us . I’m more than sadly never wanted cock and balls. I have loves and dislikes , views and opinions etc etc . If someone wants to be a walking cock , then that’s fine too . If people are genuinely interested give “ Paris lees” a look. Some of her online stuff is quite interesting . I’m sorry if anyone thinks I’m ramming this down their throat , I’m answering questions . Please don’t think trans is a choice it’s not . It bloody tragic and scary . Every time I leave the house I don’t know what I’m going to face. I have a season ticket for my beloved Charlton . But doubtful il be going because I’m scared . Going to the loo is frightening . Like every walk of life there are arseholes . They are in the trans community too. When something not good happens we all get tarred with the same brush . Without people thinking it through or finding out the real facts .
I am really interested in your views here LMHR so please post more, but I do feel you have indirectly digged at myself and not even responded. Not only that you have said about 'transphones on here', I feel this is unfair/ unjustified. I am not sure any of the responses on here have really suggested that. Granted I do think the comment due to genitilia as previously stated its not Black and white, but its just peoples opinions which I am sure you have had many people comment on this in everyday life.
I sympathise and never claim to understand what you have gone through, but when you start a valid argument and try to educate people but then with sly digs aimed at myself or others on here, not 100% any is aimed at me still
LMHR sorry if I was being negative but I was giving my only TG experience. I cant rewrite it, it happened. It was very traumatic for the young lady who had to deal with complaints from other women who had to share the facilities. But the person concerned had obvious mental health issues, aggression being one of them. You seem a more reasoned person, and brave to share your concerns on here. You know that CL has people with very balanced views, and thanks for your openness to bring a new subject to the table.
We are complex by the nature of the problem and it’s only a problem because of non acceptance . Between 46-49% of trans teenagers attempt suicide . That is a huge figure but never discussed . The media is more interested in feeding antitrans stuff , like having your cock waxed ( though that is important too , if your so inclined ) also never discussed are the female to male trans . You have probably stood next to one in the toilet and never new . Where as trans women of course stand out and are often held up to redicule . It’s near enough a 50/50 split F to M and M to F . While I have always been trans bit hidden and in private . The last 3 yrs I’ve been going out more and more , until a few months ago deciding to Come out full time . It’s quite scary . Things like the cartoon earlier in this thread though “ just a joke “ reinforces transphobia . Makes it fun to throw comments at us cos it’s “ just a joke “ The next step is to throw punches at us with the mates laughing cos it’s “ funny”. I hope this explains a bit why I won’t be at the valley . It’s not an easy choice the Addicks have been a part of my life for 55 yrs . Thanks for your intrest . If only more people took the time to find what we are about would make life easier .
This is awful, stuff that people probably wont be aware off.
Through coming out , is that on here or in general? I wouldn't be put off going to the Valley, firstly on here I doubt anyone would ever notice (nor should it matter), is it that obvious to a random person? Like you say regarding the women its more obvious.
Just out of interest, Do you say you are now female? or transgender?
Why is this thread being sunk/hidden?? I find it quite interesting and I don't see there has been any animosity of anything other than a discussion... unless I have missed a few posts being deleted
Sorry johnnybev . I shouldn’t have said what i did and if it caused offence , I apologise . I suppose it’s my own defence mechanism kicking in . I couldn’t explain in anyway that you would understand about being trans . As I mentioned before take a look at Paris lees stuff . She equates it to grief . As in until you experience it you don’t really understand it . But asks you just take our word for it . Harvey that also wasn’t a dig at you . It’s just that everyone that puts anything about trans is so negative . It so not the truth . As I said before there are some trans scum bags . Just as there are some white middle aged male scum bags . Most of us are good decent people who were born a bit different . Johnnybev , I describe myself as a transwoman .women come in different shapes and sizes . Some women are short , some are tall, some are obese , some are anorexic , some are black, some are white, some straight , some gay etc etc . Some are a mixture of the above . We are just another type of woman . Unless you of course believe we are just walking cocks and vaginas. Interestingly there is current research in the Netherlands on brain patterns . The research shows that trans woman patterns are similar to genetic woman’s patterns ( which of course vary in themselves ) and the same goes for transmen . At long last science is catching up with us. Please have a look on line , there is quite a bit of info out there . I have to say some negative trans stuff is out there too which I also understand and needs to be open to debate . As I said toilets are the bane of my life . Everyone is obssed with toilets . Firstly there is no law in this country about what toilet to use . We are at liberty to use any toilet . But I get that some women are shocked and scared when they see a large trans such as myself in the toilet . Most I have to say are ok . They realise I just want a wee . But some are quite worried , especially older women . I can understand that , most have never met a trans person and of course are worried . This is of course partly due to all the negativity surrounding us and the blatant lies . If I wanted to attack a woman ( which I don’t ) I wouldnt need to spend an hour and a half getting ready and spend money on clothes and lurk in a woman’s toilet . I could be just like the other scum men that attack women and do it in the home , in the street etc . I don’t know of one incident of a transwoman attacking a genetic woman in a toilet . If anyone knows of such I’d be interested . But a real incident ..... not my friend sids friend Sam said type of incident . I hope this helps a bit.
No problem @LMHR, probably more a misunderstanding then offence. I was just generally intrigued, hope things are heading in the right direction and more so you are happy.
Comments
In a previous post on here you labelled yourself a bloke in a picture that was posted. Was that picture taken before you transitioned?
You might agree, you might not. I am now beyond caring.
Should I be allowed to be on an all female ward and do the other patients have a right to know?
Should I be allowed to be in a women's prison if convicted?
Etc
Whatever the rights are there are obviously issues that can occur if the situation is abused. Debate needs to address this.
There are sometimes no clear answers.
Hopefully you don't mean me here, as it couldn't be further from the truth. What I put was more how society is PC brigade, whatever you call it, sometimes whatever gender/race/sexual preference, some people go overboard trying to a) prove themselves to people b) make an issue about things
I know this is probably controversial but this is my opinion, I have Gay friends, Black, White, Women etc. but in some isolated cases people are over the top. Again I shouldn't have really linked to Vegans, mainly as I feel that's another one which goes a bit political, but they do constantly try to put their views on to people (watch a documentary, try this, post photos) Naturally people who aren't vegan only post the odd meal, anyway this isn't a vegan thread.
If I am honest I haven't even read the link, but when people were talking about identify as a certain gender, then a response which was black or white (penis or vagina)
I agree with what you have put , also I understand I will never be a in a position to understand fully what its like to be part of LGBT community, likewise black. My views are my own but in short it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like but I would take them on its own merit. It is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case (assuming that's the right word apologise I don't know if its called)
I once saw, on Charlton Life, a proctologist described (I can't remember who, but whoever it was deserved the "likes" they got) as an "arse doctor". I think that phrase works much better than proctologist, because it explains the part of the body you need treated. If you have an arse and it needs treatment, you see an arse doctor. The word "gynaecologist" doesn't have this same advantage. But it's clear that a gynaecologist treats specific, defined parts of the body. If you don't have those parts, you shouldn't need to see one.
I think you should be allowed on a female ward in those circumstances. I don't think other patients have a right to know that - or, pretty much anything else - about you. (There are several, associated questions that touch on this subject. For example, what "type" of ward should a man going through gender realignment surgery be admitted to? Should a patient of any gender have the right to refuse being placed on a mixed-gender ward? Does a patient have a "right" to be formally informed of the gender of everyone on their ward?)
The prison bit I really don't know the answer to. Should incarcerated women have to share their accommodation with someone whom they suspect might assault them sexually? Of course not. But neither should men. It's an imponderable, I think.
Do you agree with those answers?
Most people (56%) between 13-20 know someone who uses gender-neutral pronouns.
One person in eight (12%) identifies as transgender or gender non-conforming.
I don't want to seem too critical, because you come across as someone who absolutely doesn't want to discriminate. But, I think your comment comes across as a bit privileged. Because you've said this "it doesn't bother me who someone is, who they identify as, what they like" (which, incidentally, is the best thing I have read on this thread), but then you have said "it is only when people go overboard trying to sell it or refer to it in my transgender friend's case". That comes across as if you're saying "I am absolutely fine with everyone, as long as they only say the things I am happy with".
I don't want to come across as too critical, as you seem to have a really, really good attitude. (But sometimes it's the little things that unknowingly cause issues).
I am not a big fan of putting people into rigidly-defined groups, but I think you would fit very well in here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_ally
Never heard of that group if im honest, I don't know whether that's a compliment or just again putting people in a bracket for the hell of it.
Unfortunately I am not that educated on these matters and only really deal from personal experience, when I was younger like most I was more narrow minded about it. Now I understand bits, but still I have never experienced anything, so essentially I will always take on board all comments.
By it doesn't bother me, is I just don't see why people need to label. This in itself to me creates some of the stuff which could be referred to prejudice, although I do understand why people do it just I wont often refer to a specific group of people.
This is why I am stating my opinion, I generally can be quite ignorant with normal world stuff like politics unless it directly affects me. I can be an ally if that's what they call it
In response to my transgender friend/ associate this is an isolated case, I have talked to him a lot at the beginning of it and again bare no resentment as the change itself 'doesn't bother me' nor should it matter, my whole point about them was suddenly their whole personality changed, when people would talk about literally anything they would always put a spin on it down to their transition and literally overdoing it. A lot of it feels like they are trying to prove something which again they don't have to as I have a good circle of friends, although I cant again describe how hard it is to live a day in their life.
Fair enough mate, not always sure written. Seemed like either a compliment or a back handed one lol
I did add more about the specific case with my Trans friend btw, I missed that point from your original post
To answer suede Adidas . It was 0.25% of the population a few years ago . The last time I saw it is now about 1% . Depending who’s figures you read. Someone asked what is a man or a woman . That of course is the whole conundrum . There are plenty of books and academic papers on the subject , which a worth a look . It’s impossibe to put a whole polemic in a few sentances . Someone else said a cock is a man a vagina a woman . What I don’t believe is that our genitalia defines us . I’m more than sadly never wanted cock and balls. I have loves and dislikes , views and opinions etc etc . If someone wants to be a walking cock , then that’s fine too . If people are genuinely interested give “ Paris lees” a look. Some of her online stuff is quite interesting . I’m sorry if anyone thinks I’m ramming this down their throat , I’m answering questions . Please don’t think trans is a choice it’s not . It bloody tragic and scary . Every time I leave the house I don’t know what I’m going to face. I have a season ticket for my beloved Charlton . But doubtful il be going because I’m scared . Going to the loo is frightening . Like every walk of life there are arseholes . They are in the trans community too. When something not good happens we all get tarred with the same brush . Without people thinking it through or finding out the real facts .
I have a cousin that transitioned very early 90s. Big news then. I didn’t really understand any of it to be honest back then. I didn’t know her well at the time. I have 46 cousins so not a particularly close family. We all lost contact. We Met up recently. I wouldn’t say she’s found happiness but definitely happier living as she is. But she is a very complex character, that’s how I came away feeling.
If you’ve had a season ticket before why will you be too scared to go back to the valley now?
Unfortunately this conversation got sunk before your comments due to our bickering. So don’t take it personally. I’m sure there was a reason for sinking? @cabbles
I am really interested in your views here LMHR so please post more, but I do feel you have indirectly digged at myself and not even responded. Not only that you have said about 'transphones on here', I feel this is unfair/ unjustified. I am not sure any of the responses on here have really suggested that. Granted I do think the comment due to genitilia as previously stated its not Black and white, but its just peoples opinions which I am sure you have had many people comment on this in everyday life.
I sympathise and never claim to understand what you have gone through, but when you start a valid argument and try to educate people but then with sly digs aimed at myself or others on here, not 100% any is aimed at me still
This is awful, stuff that people probably wont be aware off.
Through coming out , is that on here or in general? I wouldn't be put off going to the Valley, firstly on here I doubt anyone would ever notice (nor should it matter), is it that obvious to a random person? Like you say regarding the women its more obvious.
Just out of interest, Do you say you are now female? or transgender?
Why is this thread being sunk/hidden?? I find it quite interesting and I don't see there has been any animosity of anything other than a discussion... unless I have missed a few posts being deleted
As I said toilets are the bane of my life . Everyone is obssed with toilets . Firstly there is no law in this country about what toilet to use . We are at liberty to use any toilet . But I get that some women are shocked and scared when they see a large trans such as myself in the toilet . Most I have to say are ok . They realise I just want a wee . But some are quite worried , especially older women . I can understand that , most have never met a trans person and of course are worried . This is of course partly due to all the negativity surrounding us and the blatant lies . If I wanted to attack a woman ( which I don’t ) I wouldnt need to spend an hour and a half getting ready and spend money on clothes and lurk in a woman’s toilet . I could be just like the other scum men that attack women and do it in the home , in the street etc . I don’t know of one incident of a transwoman attacking a genetic woman in a toilet . If anyone knows of such I’d be interested . But a real incident ..... not my friend sids friend Sam said type of incident . I hope this helps a bit.