I'm torn between Hybrid and full EV. Thinking about changing my car soon. The one thing that is making me think EVs aren't quite ready yet is the battery technology. The weight, size and slow home charging. There are lots of rumours and stories that the chinese are close to developing a much smaller, lighter battery system that will re-charge in minutes - i'm sure that would be a game changer and existiung EVs would becomem obsolete. Might be wrong but I'm tempted to wait.
I think they already have. But how far away from being marketable isn’t known yet.
Old EVs wouldn’t become obsolete because you could still use them. The current batteries are fine - I know quite a few people who own EVs, and they say it’s not an issue, for them. One of them drives to Newcastle every so often and has to stop at a motorway service station for forty minutes for charging, but says they just have lunch.
I feel like this is a big part of it for me, it's great for people who do long journeys and live their lives (both metaphorically and literally) in the slow lane, but if you actually don't want to spend 40 minutes hanging around a human cesspit of misery that is a British motorway service station, you need an alternative.
I think my next car will most likely be an EV (and I'm quite excited about it!) 99% of my miles are driven in 10-15 mile distances at most, I probably only do 4-5,000 miles in an entire year.
If I still did a lot of driving to the south of France it would be out of the question for me.
This is a good point. What is the public charging like in for example France and Spain ?
You could download one of the apps for locating charge points (I've got ChargeMap, and the Shell one, but for sure EV owners could suggest better). Then you could just play with it, select a journey you could imagine doing, and see what's offered you. Trouble I find in Germany is that it's difficult to determine from the app if a charge point doesn't require you to have signed up for a German-only provider such as CCS. Actually I could write a long post about how crap it is in Germany. It's ironic that when we drive to the German coast for holiday we drive right past the Tesla "gigafactory", very happy to be in a plug-in hybrid.
This summer we went on hols to Western France, renting an apartment from a Lifer and we hired a car. When I asked him whether I could select an EV he told me bluntly to forget that idea.
In
most car finance deals, this is not a problem for drivers as – provided
they have kept up with their payments – they can hand back the keys and
walk away.
However,
the issue creates a headache for dealers that often allow customers to
“roll over” positive or negative equity into new financing deals to win
repeat business.
The steep drop in electric cars’ value is being
partly fuelled by the discounts offered on new vehicles, as
manufacturers attempt to boost sales to hit legally-binding government
targets.
Rob Forrester, Vertu’s chief executive, said: “We all
know that battery electric vehicles have depreciated at a significant
rate, and that tends to feed into the creation of negative equity.
“If
you think about when many cars were bought two to three years ago, new
car prices were quite high because of supply constraints, but since then
there’s been a reduction in used car value.”
It follows warnings
last month that so-called fleet operators, such as car leasing firms and
rental companies, were having to swallow large losses when reselling
EVs because of “accelerated, exceptional depreciation”.
In the
past two years, the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association
(BVRLA) said the average amount of “residual value” left over at the end
of a car’s lease period had plunged from 60pc to 35pc.
That means a car worth £50,000 when new would drop to £17,500 in value over three years – instead of £30,000.
Car
leasing agreements tend to last two to three years, with monthly
payments generally agreed to cover the vehicle’s predicted depreciation
over that period – minus a deposit.
However, the vast majority of
these deals are personal contract purchase (PCP) deals where the lender
agrees to a “guaranteed minimum future value” at the end of the deal,
also sometimes known as a balloon payment.
Consumers can typically hand the car back and walk away if the car’s estimated worth drops below the minimum guaranteed value.
But
many dealerships allow them to add the value of negative equity to a
new financing deal, or take positive equity off the price of their next
car if it is in surplus, in a bid to retain customers.
As a result, Vertu warned that rising instances of negative equity could hurt forecourt profits.
It
came as the company said it continued to see instances of car
manufacturers “rationing” supplies of petrol and diesel cars to
dealerships, as they prioritise trying to shift to electric models
instead.
In the six months to the end of August, Vertu said EV sales had increased 10pc, compared to a year earlier.
That was better than the 7pc drop in private sales of EVs seen more broadly across the industry, according to data from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
With our boys being older now we’re looking a buying a smaller (EV) car to replay our much loved Skoda Yeti. My wife has a salary sacrifice scheme for buying EVs right now, so seems like a goot time to go electric.
We hired a Fiat Cinquecento in Italy and absolutely loved it, but there really isn’t enough room in the back for the occasions when we do need to travel as a family for more than a few miles.
So we’re looking at the currently available EVs: Volvo EX30 Mini ? Citroen ë-C3 Fiat 600 Renault 5 Renault 4 or the soon to be available: Hyundai Inster (cheaper and smaller than the above, but quite interesting). https://youtu.be/WT7swFbkdV4?si=lbwErSJTLy6_-Unx
Haven't really done much research yet, so this is the long list.
Any other suggestions for a smaller EV?
You need to assess what you are using it for mate I can’t comment on all of the above but my misses has a mini and the real range is dreadful unless you are doing really low mileage in the winter she get about 80 miles if she is lucky. It’s fine for us as she does low miles and I have an EV6 ev which has great mileage so any long journeys we take that
I had an EV as a Company car but bought an ICE as a 'range anxiety antidote' for longer journeys - my wife also has an ICE. When I retired last December I was gifted the EV as part of my retirement package and as it was hard to justify three cars between the two of us I had to choose which one to sell - I opted to sell my ICE and retain the EV.
Last weekend I went on a longish round trip (the longest since I've had the EV and my wife was using her car) and spent the entire journey focusing on the ever decreasing range left in the batteries! Seven miles from home on the return leg the car died on me with an 'Electrical Failure - park the car safely). Having waited 90 minutes for the RAC who then told me it would be another 90 minutes and with the Police Officer saying they would call out their recovery as the car had to be moved (70mph dual carriageway with no hard shoulder). So I just double checked and the fault had reset and the car was working perfectly. Having an EV die at 60mph was a bit scary!
Bugger that for a game of soldiers - ordered a new ICE yesterday and will trade in the EV.
Fair enough, based on one experience. But again, none of the people I know who drive EVs have had any issues at all.
Have you got an estimate for delivery yet ? There appears to have been a lot of interest in the EX30 (including Mrs Hex) so it may be quite long lead times. Another consideration is that you will be dealing direct with Volvo over price as the dealer no longer ‘buys’ the cars.
I was quoted about 4-5 weeks for the top of the range one.
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
Although this is very interesting, is it relevant ? I don’t think so.
If you knew that all cars built from next month would produce minimal CO2 then you have a solid reason to wait till then. But that is not the case. The design, development, production lead time for a single model is many years. It is also an iterative process and expensive. If we all waited for the perfect solution it probably wouldn't happen. EVs are the future but ultimately how we produce and store the electricity is something of a guessing game at present. I see no good reason to criticise current EVs for not being perfect environmentally. It's a process and the more people taking part, the quicker we will get to perfection.
A fair few petrol stations have already installed EV chargers.
I bought an EV last month & have had no issues at all so far. Plus I’m already noticing the benefit of not having to fork out £200 - £300 on Diesel every month.
You also find a lot of Starbucks & McDonald's have chargers too, especially the ones that are right next to a major road. On long journeys I tend to find one of these on the route or look for something like an MFG or Fastned dedicated charging point as these have lots of chargers and from my experience are never full. I rarely charge at a services but assume that's where most people try and charge so is always going to be a bit busier
I used an app called ‘zapmap’ which is will route you (via charging points) from start to destination.
I generally ended up filtering by faster chargers (50kw) if visiting an area an area for the first time so I know where I have available to charge and how far away it is.
One of the reasons I have gone petrol hybrid as I have much better things to do with my life.
Fair enough. I use the same app about 1 minute before my journey and find it very accessible and intuitive to use.
I’m not saying the app is not intuitive (it is, I like it) I just have anxiety about where I am going to charge and planning out when it is likely I am going need to. 1st world problems.
Sorry, have zero interest in EV. Infrastructure is not there, electricity is not cheap. Happy to drive my Alfa Stelvio 280 bhp into the ground before I get close to an alternative. The EV range anxiety would push me though the roof tbf. Just don't need the stress and it's not as if they are cheap to buy is it.
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
Although this is very interesting, is it relevant ? I don’t think so.
If you knew that all cars built from next month would produce minimal CO2 then you have a solid reason to wait till then. But that is not the case. The design, development, production lead time for a single model is many years. It is also an iterative process and expensive. If we all waited for the perfect solution it probably wouldn't happen. EVs are the future but ultimately how we produce and store the electricity is something of a guessing game at present. I see no good reason to criticise current EVs for not being perfect environmentally. It's a process and the more people taking part, the quicker we will get to perfection.
I would have thought the decision as to when to buy, as well as what EV to buy, was relevant. I'm going through a process of making many life style changes to reduce my carbon footprint, but only when I'm satisfied they are actually doing that. When it comes to switching to an EV, I'm more confident that paying into schemes to offset my car emissions will better achieve that.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from switching.
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
Although this is very interesting, is it relevant ? I don’t think so.
If you knew that all cars built from next month would produce minimal CO2 then you have a solid reason to wait till then. But that is not the case. The design, development, production lead time for a single model is many years. It is also an iterative process and expensive. If we all waited for the perfect solution it probably wouldn't happen. EVs are the future but ultimately how we produce and store the electricity is something of a guessing game at present. I see no good reason to criticise current EVs for not being perfect environmentally. It's a process and the more people taking part, the quicker we will get to perfection.
Many would disagree with you, all manufacturers are looking at EV alternatives as they don't believe in the long term they are the future, more likely it will be hydrogen. Toyota are leading the way on this.
Hydrogen looks very interesting and if the barriers are sorted, it suddenly becomes the most attractive option. Suddenly. Whilst it has come a long way, battery technoloy still has to be improved greatly for it to suceed IMO. The other questions that have to be answered is where the materials for batteries are produced. They are not produced in the sort of places you would want them to be, largely Russia and China.
The other questions are around eco fuels. Can synthetic fuels that are not harmful to the environment be produced? If yes, that would surely be a game changer too which would blow electric cars away. A crystal ball is needed really. I don't think it suits car manufacturers for these questions to be gone into too deeply whilst they want to sell electric cars. Yes, under certain circumstances an electric car purchase has a lot going for it. If you can charge at home and the journeys you undertake are within the battery range but people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.
Hydrogen looks very interesting and if the barriers are sorted, it suddenly becomes the most attractive option. Suddenly. Whilst it has come a long way, battery technoloy still has to be improved greatly for it to suceed IMO. The other questions that have to be answered is where the materials for batteries are produced. They are not produced in the sort of places you would want them to be, largely Russia and China.
The other questions are around eco fuels. Can synthetic fuels that are not harmful to the environment be produced? If yes, that would surely be a game changer too which would blow electric cars away. A crystal ball is needed really. I don't think it suits car manufacturers for these questions to be gone into too deeply whilst they want to sell electric cars. Yes, under certain circumstances an electric car purchase has a lot going for it. If you can charge at home and the journeys you undertake are within the battery range but people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.
I filmed a story about a hydrogen powered car (made by ITM?) about twenty years ago, at which time they were being talked about by some as being the future.
And yet not a lot has happened since then. ‘people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.’ This often what happens when major new products are launched. They’re over priced to begin with, and early owners lose out. But the upside is that prices are coming down.
My friend who lives in Scotland bought an Ionic 5 two or three years ago, and now has zero fuel costs (he has solar panels). The savings will compensate for the drop in value, but I doubt he’ll be selling any time soon anyway.
And your comments about batteries needing to be improved? They just have been. Not sure when they’re coming to market, but they’ve developed smaller, lighter batteries which will charger much more quickly.
If you think there’s a dearth of EV charging points, try finding a hydrogen point.
I was looking into the Mirai before settling on our hybrid. The nearest hydrogen station here in France is about 100 kilometers away, but is only open to commercial vehicles, after that I would have to drive 250 kilometers one-way to fill up!
If you think there’s a dearth of EV charging points, try finding a hydrogen point.
I was looking into the Mirai before settling on our hybrid. The nearest hydrogen station here in France is about 100 kilometers away, but is only open to commercial vehicles, after that I would have to drive 250 kilometers one-way to fill up!
But you could have said that about electric vehicles 15 years ago.
I just don't see electric vehicles being the go to in 15/20 years time.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. They need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Oh and they need to be quicker to charge up. The grid needs to be fully green, not like now, and that is a grid that would need far more capacity than required now. Of course it is natural they will improve although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable.
If the same number of EVs were on the road as ICEs are now the infrastructure changes look unworkable/impossible. I did concede a situation where they can be beneficial but I don't think this applies to a lot of the uses. Electric evangelists say you can charge up, have a wee and something to eat and you are ready to go. But you can fill up with petrol in a couple of minutes! I think in 30 years time there will be electric vehicles as an option for specific circumstances but there will still be ICEs and vehicles powered by other forms of technology. Hydrogen vehicles are of course electric as the hydrogen cell produces electricity, not petrol so technically these will be EVs. But they will be more practical EVs.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. The need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Of course it is natural they will immprove although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable.
If the same number of EVs were on the road as ICEs are now the infrastructure changes look unworkable/impossible. I did concede a situation where they can be beneficial but I don't think this applies to a lot of the uses. Electric evangelists say you can charge up, have a wee and something to eat and you are ready to go. But you can fill up with petrol in a ciuple of minutes! I think in 30 years time there will be electric vehicles as an option for specific circumstances but there will still be ICEs and vehicles powered by other forms of technology. Hydrogen vehicles are of course electric as the hydrogen cell produces electricity, not petrol so technically these will be EVs. But they will be more practical EVs.
Look at how busy a typical motorway service station is on a Saturday lunchtime. Now, imagine that every single one of those vehicles is electric and half need charging, whilst the occupants go inside for lunch. It just wouldn't work. The infrastructure needs implementing now if they want the mandate to work.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. The need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Of course it is natural they will immprove although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable.
If the same number of EVs were on the road as ICEs are now the infrastructure changes look unworkable/impossible. I did concede a situation where they can be beneficial but I don't think this applies to a lot of the uses. Electric evangelists say you can charge up, have a wee and something to eat and you are ready to go. But you can fill up with petrol in a ciuple of minutes! I think in 30 years time there will be electric vehicles as an option for specific circumstances but there will still be ICEs and vehicles powered by other forms of technology. Hydrogen vehicles are of course electric as the hydrogen cell produces electricity, not petrol so technically these will be EVs. But they will be more practical EVs.
Look at how busy a typical motorway service station is on a Saturday lunchtime. Now, imagine that every single one of those vehicles is electric and half need charging, whilst the occupants go inside for lunch. It just wouldn't work. The infrastructure needs implementing now if they want the mandate to work.
My point is that the scale is so large, it can't be implemented now for 2035, even 2040. And lets consider the now, too much electricity is not green, and that is for homes and business use, not adding all the cars in the equation. In the next ten years we have got our work cut out converting the infrastucture we have got to be fully green. For me, electric cars are like the Emporer's new clothes.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. The need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Of course it is natural they will immprove although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable.
If the same number of EVs were on the road as ICEs are now the infrastructure changes look unworkable/impossible. I did concede a situation where they can be beneficial but I don't think this applies to a lot of the uses. Electric evangelists say you can charge up, have a wee and something to eat and you are ready to go. But you can fill up with petrol in a ciuple of minutes! I think in 30 years time there will be electric vehicles as an option for specific circumstances but there will still be ICEs and vehicles powered by other forms of technology. Hydrogen vehicles are of course electric as the hydrogen cell produces electricity, not petrol so technically these will be EVs. But they will be more practical EVs.
Look at how busy a typical motorway service station is on a Saturday lunchtime. Now, imagine that every single one of those vehicles is electric and half need charging, whilst the occupants go inside for lunch. It just wouldn't work. The infrastructure needs implementing now if they want the mandate to work.
Or just wait for the Chinese breakthrough in battery tech that will render the infrastructure that can be installed now as hugely inferior...
Hydrogen looks very interesting and if the barriers are sorted, it suddenly becomes the most attractive option. Suddenly. Whilst it has come a long way, battery technoloy still has to be improved greatly for it to suceed IMO. The other questions that have to be answered is where the materials for batteries are produced. They are not produced in the sort of places you would want them to be, largely Russia and China.
The other questions are around eco fuels. Can synthetic fuels that are not harmful to the environment be produced? If yes, that would surely be a game changer too which would blow electric cars away. A crystal ball is needed really. I don't think it suits car manufacturers for these questions to be gone into too deeply whilst they want to sell electric cars. Yes, under certain circumstances an electric car purchase has a lot going for it. If you can charge at home and the journeys you undertake are within the battery range but people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.
I filmed a story about a hydrogen powered car (made by ITM?) about twenty years ago, at which time they were being talked about by some as being the future.
And yet not a lot has happened since then. ‘people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.’ This often what happens when major new products are launched. They’re over priced to begin with, and early owners lose out. But the upside is that prices are coming down.
My friend who lives in Scotland bought an Ionic 5 two or three years ago, and now has zero fuel costs (he has solar panels). The savings will compensate for the drop in value, but I doubt he’ll be selling any time soon anyway.
And your comments about batteries needing to be improved? They just have been. Not sure when they’re coming to market, but they’ve developed smaller, lighter batteries which will charger much more quickly.
I realise that your comment is specifically directed at you friend with solar panels but I’m sure it won’t be long before the government are forced to look at replacing the progressively lost revenues from fuel duty as EV’s become the norm. Hardly anyone will have access to free solar power so will be reliant on the grid for charging. The cost of home energy has to increase to reflect the fall in fuel duty to protect government revenues. I think ultimately the real national costs of a near complete EV fleet will be more than that of ICE. That would include additional wear and tear to infrastructure and the cost of battery recycling. The whole exercise will I suspect push up motoring costs for the vast majority. Certainly the government cannot afford to lose the fuel duty revenues.
They represent a significant source of revenue for government. In 2023-24, we expect fuel duties to raise £24.7 billion. That would represent 2.2 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to £850 per household and 0.9 per cent of national income. - Source OBR
Hydrogen looks very interesting and if the barriers are sorted, it suddenly becomes the most attractive option. Suddenly. Whilst it has come a long way, battery technoloy still has to be improved greatly for it to suceed IMO. The other questions that have to be answered is where the materials for batteries are produced. They are not produced in the sort of places you would want them to be, largely Russia and China.
The other questions are around eco fuels. Can synthetic fuels that are not harmful to the environment be produced? If yes, that would surely be a game changer too which would blow electric cars away. A crystal ball is needed really. I don't think it suits car manufacturers for these questions to be gone into too deeply whilst they want to sell electric cars. Yes, under certain circumstances an electric car purchase has a lot going for it. If you can charge at home and the journeys you undertake are within the battery range but people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.
I filmed a story about a hydrogen powered car (made by ITM?) about twenty years ago, at which time they were being talked about by some as being the future.
And yet not a lot has happened since then. ‘people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.’ This often what happens when major new products are launched. They’re over priced to begin with, and early owners lose out. But the upside is that prices are coming down.
My friend who lives in Scotland bought an Ionic 5 two or three years ago, and now has zero fuel costs (he has solar panels). The savings will compensate for the drop in value, but I doubt he’ll be selling any time soon anyway.
And your comments about batteries needing to be improved? They just have been. Not sure when they’re coming to market, but they’ve developed smaller, lighter batteries which will charger much more quickly.
I realise that your comment is specifically directed at you friend with solar panels but I’m sure it won’t be long before the government are forced to look at replacing the progressively lost revenues from fuel duty as EV’s become the norm. Hardly anyone will have access to free solar power so will be reliant on the grid for charging. The cost of home energy has to increase to reflect the fall in fuel duty to protect government revenues. I think ultimately the real national costs of a near complete EV fleet will be more than that of ICE. That would include additional wear and tear to infrastructure and the cost of battery recycling. The whole exercise will I suspect push up motoring costs for the vast majority. Certainly the government cannot afford to lose the fuel duty revenues.
They represent a significant source of revenue for government. In 2023-24, we expect fuel duties to raise £24.7 billion. That would represent 2.2 per cent of all receipts and is equivalent to £850 per household and 0.9 per cent of national income. - Source OBR
Exactly. That’s why for me at least the jump to EV now is not compelling.
The increased base cost relative to a diesel/petrol model and the inevitable increase in charging costs makes me wary.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this budget flags (not implements) some changes in this space down the line.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. They need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Oh and they need to be quicker to charge up. The grid needs to be fully green, not like now, and that is a grid that would need far more capacity than required now. Of course it is natural they will improve although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable …….
I think it has been posted on here previously but the grid already has the capacity, although locally, getting power to the fast chargers, may require work.
My point about batteries needing improvement is around a multitude of factors. They need to be more environmentally friendly to produce and dispose of (something the powers that be choose not to go into for some reason). They need to be lighter and they need a longer range and they need to last longer. Oh and they need to be quicker to charge up. The grid needs to be fully green, not like now, and that is a grid that would need far more capacity than required now. Of course it is natural they will improve although in some cases they have got worse due to cost and availability of the optimum materials to produce them. But an improvement in the battery from the one you may have bought in your car then makes your car less valuable …….
I think it has been posted on here previously but the grid already has the capacity, although locally, getting power to the fast chargers, may require work.
Are the small “street substations” capable of let’s say 95% of houses they service requiring such an uplift in draw on electricity?
The normal maximum household charger is 7kw which I guess the network should be able to cope with. Electric showers are generally 8 to 9.5kw. I have seen chargers up to 22kw which is likely to require installation of a 3 phrase supply costing about £5k upwards.
With our boys being older now we’re looking a buying a smaller (EV) car to replay our much loved Skoda Yeti. My wife has a salary sacrifice scheme for buying EVs right now, so seems like a goot time to go electric.
We hired a Fiat Cinquecento in Italy and absolutely loved it, but there really isn’t enough room in the back for the occasions when we do need to travel as a family for more than a few miles.
So we’re looking at the currently available EVs: Volvo EX30 Mini ? Citroen ë-C3 Fiat 600 Renault 5 Renault 4 or the soon to be available: Hyundai Inster (cheaper and smaller than the above, but quite interesting). https://youtu.be/WT7swFbkdV4?si=lbwErSJTLy6_-Unx
Haven't really done much research yet, so this is the long list.
Any other suggestions for a smaller EV?
You need to assess what you are using it for mate I can’t comment on all of the above but my misses has a mini and the real range is dreadful unless you are doing really low mileage in the winter she get about 80 miles if she is lucky. It’s fine for us as she does low miles and I have an EV6 ev which has great mileage so any long journeys we take that
Thanks for the warning. Mini off the list, to be replaced by the Ora 03 I think.
what they need is batteries you just swap out at a charging centre/petrol garage.
You drive in, take out your battery, put it into a charging dock, this allows you take out a battery that is fully charged, pop it into your car and off you go.
Bit like a larger version of your cordless lawnmowers
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
Although this is very interesting, is it relevant ? I don’t think so.
If you knew that all cars built from next month would produce minimal CO2 then you have a solid reason to wait till then. But that is not the case. The design, development, production lead time for a single model is many years. It is also an iterative process and expensive. If we all waited for the perfect solution it probably wouldn't happen. EVs are the future but ultimately how we produce and store the electricity is something of a guessing game at present. I see no good reason to criticise current EVs for not being perfect environmentally. It's a process and the more people taking part, the quicker we will get to perfection.
Many would disagree with you, all manufacturers are looking at EV alternatives as they don't believe in the long term they are the future, more likely it will be hydrogen. Toyota are leading the way on this.
Although I heard a podcast (cant recall which) which said Toyota are really betting the house on solid state batteries rather than hydrogen. I dont pretend to understand all these energy techs, but as a comms guy I am pretty sure that there is some hefty global lobbying going on re hydrogen - although again, I dont know who exactly stands to benefit. But recently there has been hype about hydrogen powered trains and planes - but it has been challenged by serious people in both industries who certainly want to see and find new energy alternatives. There’s a bit going on right now with a battery powered train in England. It is being tested on a branch line running to Greenford, west of Ealing.
what they need is batteries you just swap out at a charging centre/petrol garage.
You drive in, take out your battery, put it into a charging dock, this allows you take out a battery that is fully charged, pop it into your car and off you go.
Bit like a larger version of your cordless lawnmowers
This could work. They would have to be the same for all cars and there would need to be two or three for it to work best.
what they need is batteries you just swap out at a charging centre/petrol garage.
You drive in, take out your battery, put it into a charging dock, this allows you take out a battery that is fully charged, pop it into your car and off you go.
Bit like a larger version of your cordless lawnmowers
Comments
This summer we went on hols to Western France, renting an apartment from a Lifer and we hired a car. When I asked him whether I could select an EV he told me bluntly to forget that idea.
Falling electric vehicle (EV) prices are leaving a growing number of drivers in negative equity, a top dealership chain has warned.
Vertu Motors said on Wednesday that car retailers were coming under pressure as EVs coming off financing agreements were found to be worth less than the loan they are attached to.
In most car finance deals, this is not a problem for drivers as – provided they have kept up with their payments – they can hand back the keys and walk away.
The lender that funded the leasing deal then typically takes the financial hit.
However, the issue creates a headache for dealers that often allow customers to “roll over” positive or negative equity into new financing deals to win repeat business.
The steep drop in electric cars’ value is being partly fuelled by the discounts offered on new vehicles, as manufacturers attempt to boost sales to hit legally-binding government targets.
Rob Forrester, Vertu’s chief executive, said: “We all know that battery electric vehicles have depreciated at a significant rate, and that tends to feed into the creation of negative equity.
“If you think about when many cars were bought two to three years ago, new car prices were quite high because of supply constraints, but since then there’s been a reduction in used car value.”
It follows warnings last month that so-called fleet operators, such as car leasing firms and rental companies, were having to swallow large losses when reselling EVs because of “accelerated, exceptional depreciation”.
In the past two years, the British Vehicle Rental and Leasing Association (BVRLA) said the average amount of “residual value” left over at the end of a car’s lease period had plunged from 60pc to 35pc.
That means a car worth £50,000 when new would drop to £17,500 in value over three years – instead of £30,000.
Car leasing agreements tend to last two to three years, with monthly payments generally agreed to cover the vehicle’s predicted depreciation over that period – minus a deposit.
However, the vast majority of these deals are personal contract purchase (PCP) deals where the lender agrees to a “guaranteed minimum future value” at the end of the deal, also sometimes known as a balloon payment.
Consumers can typically hand the car back and walk away if the car’s estimated worth drops below the minimum guaranteed value.
But many dealerships allow them to add the value of negative equity to a new financing deal, or take positive equity off the price of their next car if it is in surplus, in a bid to retain customers.
As a result, Vertu warned that rising instances of negative equity could hurt forecourt profits.
It came as the company said it continued to see instances of car manufacturers “rationing” supplies of petrol and diesel cars to dealerships, as they prioritise trying to shift to electric models instead.
In the six months to the end of August, Vertu said EV sales had increased 10pc, compared to a year earlier.
That was better than the 7pc drop in private sales of EVs seen more broadly across the industry, according to data from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders.
Unless you do high mileage or get low mpg, it may make more sense to keep your old ICE car and to look after it carefully to extend its life as long as possible. If you make a car last to 200,000 miles rather than 100,000, then the emissions for each mile the car does in its lifetime may drop by as much as 50 percent, as a result of getting more distance out of the initial manufacturing emissions.
I read that a VW 'UP' takes about 6 tons of CO2 to produce, although I'm not sure if that includes getting it delivered and the raw material extraction. I think making EV's emits more, and a medium sized family car was quoted at circa 17 tons.
My small car emits 0.8 tons a year using unleaded E10 for comparative purposes, and my total fuel emissions after seven years are still below the amount used to produce an UP.
I don't think the decision to switch is the environmental no brainier its made out to be for everyone, and carbon footprint offsetting schemes appeal to me more than trading in to replace with an EV at present.
If you knew that all cars built from next month would produce minimal CO2 then you have a solid reason to wait till then. But that is not the case. The design, development, production lead time for a single model is many years. It is also an iterative process and expensive. If we all waited for the perfect solution it probably wouldn't happen. EVs are the future but ultimately how we produce and store the electricity is something of a guessing game at present. I see no good reason to criticise current EVs for not being perfect environmentally. It's a process and the more people taking part, the quicker we will get to perfection.
I'm not trying to discourage anyone from switching.
The other questions are around eco fuels. Can synthetic fuels that are not harmful to the environment be produced? If yes, that would surely be a game changer too which would blow electric cars away. A crystal ball is needed really. I don't think it suits car manufacturers for these questions to be gone into too deeply whilst they want to sell electric cars. Yes, under certain circumstances an electric car purchase has a lot going for it. If you can charge at home and the journeys you undertake are within the battery range but people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.
‘people are already finding that they lose a lot of money when it is time to sell.’ This often what happens when major new products are launched. They’re over priced to begin with, and early owners lose out. But the upside is that prices are coming down.
I was looking into the Mirai before settling on our hybrid. The nearest hydrogen station here in France is about 100 kilometers away, but is only open to commercial vehicles, after that I would have to drive 250 kilometers one-way to fill up!
I just don't see electric vehicles being the go to in 15/20 years time.
If the same number of EVs were on the road as ICEs are now the infrastructure changes look unworkable/impossible. I did concede a situation where they can be beneficial but I don't think this applies to a lot of the uses. Electric evangelists say you can charge up, have a wee and something to eat and you are ready to go. But you can fill up with petrol in a couple of minutes! I think in 30 years time there will be electric vehicles as an option for specific circumstances but there will still be ICEs and vehicles powered by other forms of technology. Hydrogen vehicles are of course electric as the hydrogen cell produces electricity, not petrol so technically these will be EVs. But they will be more practical EVs.
Tough to be seen to be not doing enough, though.
You drive in, take out your battery, put it into a charging dock, this allows you take out a battery that is fully charged, pop it into your car and off you go.
Bit like a larger version of your cordless lawnmowers