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A question about furloughing

My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

Poxy virus!
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  • What my accountants sent me.



    Dear Ben,

    FURLOUGH/JOB RETENTION SCHEME

     

    The Furlough/Job Retention Scheme will be going live next Monday 20th April 2020 and we wanted to ensure that you as a valued client of Sargeant Partnership are fully up to date on all the latest information regarding the scheme and are fully prepared and ready to be able to access and use the scheme.

     

    IMPORTANT UPDATE TO SCHEME

     

    The chancellor announced an important update to the scheme this week surrounding employee eligibility.  This related to the date in which employees needed to be employed on to qualify for the scheme, which was previously set at 29th February 2020, however this has now changed to 19th March 2020 as follows:-

     

    • you can claim for employees that were employed as of 19 March 2020 and were on your PAYE payroll on or before that date; this means that you will have made an RTI submission notifying us of payment of that employee on or before 19 March 2020.
    • employees that were employed as of 28 February 2020 and on payroll (i.e. notified to us on an RTI submission on or before 28 February) and were made redundant or stopped working for you after that, and prior to 19 March 2020, can also qualify for the scheme if you re-employ them and put them on furlough.

    For those employers that run monthly payrolls and make their RTI submissions at the end of the month any employees who started employment between 1st March 2020 and 19th March 2020 would not have been included on an RTI submission prior to 19th March 2020.

     

    For these employees we would suggest that you amend and re-submit your February RTI submission to include these employees noting their start date so that they are included and therefore eligible for the scheme even though no payment had been made yet.

     

    More information on this can be found on GOV.UK

     

    HOW TO CLAIM

     

    As mentioned above the scheme will be going live on Monday 20th April 2020.  Please don’t try to access it before then as you will not be able to.

     

    It is a scheme that can only be accessed online through GOV.UK and full support on how to use the scheme including how to calculate the claim amount will be available on line through GOV.UK

     

    Claims will be paid within 6 working days; you should not contact HMRC unless it is absolutely necessary – any queries should be directed to us as your agent or the HMRC webchat service

     

    HMRC cannot answer any queries from employees – they will need to raise these with you, as their employer, directly.

     

    WHAT INFORMATION WILL YOU NEED TO CLAIM?

     

    We have been talking to all our clients explaining what information and systems they will need in place to be ready to make a claim and below is a complete summary of what you will need in place: -

    • a Government Gateway (GG) ID and password – if you don’t already have a GG account, you can apply for one online, or by going to GOV.UK and searching for 'HMRC services: sign in or register'
    • be enrolled for PAYE online – if you aren’t registered yet, you can do so now, or by going to GOV.UK and searching for 'PAYE Online for employers'
    • the following information for each furloughed employee you will be claiming for:
    1. Name
    2. National Insurance number
    3. Claim period and claim amount
    4. PAYE/employee number (optional)
    • if you have fewer than 100 furloughed staff – you will need to input information directly into the system for each employee
    • if you have 100 or more furloughed staff – you will need to upload a file with information for each employee; we will accept the following file types: .xls .xlsx .csv .ods.

    ASSISTANCE WITH MAKING A CLAIM

     

    If we are authorized to act for you in respect of PAYE matters, we will be able to deal with the claims on your behalf.  This will be the case for clients where we provide a Payroll service.

     

    For clients that we do not provide a Payroll service for or who we don’t have authority for, we can still assist with your claims and provide advice as to how to use the service, however we won’t be able to talk with HMRC or login on your behalf.

     

    We have recently requested authorisation codes for all our payroll clients that we don’t have authority set up for and therefore if you do receive a code please could you forward it on to either your Client Manager or our Payroll Manager Jane Croxton.

     

    If you will be processing the claims yourself as advised above you will need a PAYE HMRC login account that can take up to 10 days to be set up, therefore we would suggest that you ensure this is in place if required so that it does not cause any further delays.  If you need any help with this please let either your client Manager or our Payroll Manager Jane Croxton know.

     

    If we are dealing with the claim for you, in order to ensure funds are paid as quickly as possible to you, then you will need to tell us which UK bank account you want the grant to be paid into.

     

    Please also ensure you retain all records and information in respect of your claims.

     

    VAT PAYMENT DEFERMENT SCHEME

     

    As previously advised if you are a UK VAT registered business and have a VAT payment due between 20 March 2020 and 30 June 2020, you have the option to:

    • defer the payment until a later date
    • pay the VAT due as normal

    You will still need to submit VAT Returns on time, however no interest or Penalties will be charged on any deferred payments of VAT following the chancellor’s announcement.

     

    If you choose to defer the payment you will have until 31 March 2021 to make the payment.

    You do not need to advise HMRC as this is an automatic deferment.

     

    Please note though that for anyone who pays by Direct Debit and wishes to defer their VAT payment then they must cancel their Direct Debit with their Bank otherwise the payment will be taken as normal.  This can easily be done online through your online banking facility

     

    VAT refunds will be processed as normal.

     

    All VAT payments due following this deferment period should be paid as normal.

     

    FURTHER ASSISTANCE FOR ANYONE FACING FINACIAL DIFFICULTY

     

    Please note that for anyone experiencing financial difficulties more help is also available from HMRC’s Time to Pay service.  This service allows entities to discuss their difficulties with HMRC and come up with a plan to assist you during this challenging time.

     

    Finally, we just want to reiterate that we understand that these are difficult and challenging times for all our clients and that you will be relying on us to provide advice and support you.

     

    We therefore would urge you to please get in contact with us should you have any concerns or challenges facing you as we will be happy to assist and help you through this period.

     
  • Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
  • Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.
  • edited April 2020
    My wife got given a choice... take furlough pay or you'll be let go

    Thanks for posting this thread, her Company are bloody useless so wont be surprised if they manage to f**k up
  • My wife got given a choice... take furlough pay or you'll be let go
    If she'd been employed for two years or more by that employer, then she would have employment rights that would make that particular choice difficult for the employer to defend. 
  • It’s 80% or £2,500, whichever is the lessor - is that right? And will you get 80% or £2,500 net or gross?
  • Chizz said:
    My wife got given a choice... take furlough pay or you'll be let go
    If she'd been employed for two years or more by that employer, then she would have employment rights that would make that particular choice difficult for the employer to defend. 
    Yeah she's been there for nearly five years

    Nothing was followed by her company as she's just told me that the form had to be signed in front of them etc. yet it was all done over the phone

    Another Employee even got told over text message

    This is a Company though that deliberately f**ked up my wife's Maternity Pay so she had no choice to go back to work early (else we were financially f**ked), they then paid what was due over the next few months
  • edited April 2020
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
  • se9addick said:
    It’s 80% or £2,500, whichever is the lessor - is that right? And will you get 80% or £2,500 net or gross?
    Yes, that's right. The amount you get is gross, so subject to tax and NIC. This means, though, assuming a PA of 12,500 and a normal gross salary of 30,000 you would receive 83% of your normal net pay.
  • Sponsored links:


  • bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  
  • se9addick said:
    It’s 80% or £2,500, whichever is the lessor - is that right? And will you get 80% or £2,500 net or gross?
    80% gross so you will pay less tax, NI etc. 
  • bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  

    Redundancy is where work has ceased or diminished - and in the example you give it has diminished.
    You can make some redundant or furlough some, but assuming the workers are all in the same 'pool' for redundancy/furlough then you would need a selection process using fair criteria.
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  

    Redundancy is where work has ceased or diminished - and in the example you give it has diminished.
    You can make some redundant or furlough some, but assuming the workers are all in the same 'pool' for redundancy/furlough then you would need a selection process using fair criteria.
    Ah I agree they have the reasons for redundancy, but selecting them isn’t going to easy. I doubt it’s going to be a problem, I can’t imagine many people want to work full time for full pay if they can do nothing for 80% of it. Just saying i think the issues some businesses will face is in my example. You could have staff wanting 100% pay so refusing furlough, or alternatively you have employees complaining they are doing 40 more hours then one of their colleagues for effectively around 13% extra net pay. 
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  

    Redundancy is where work has ceased or diminished - and in the example you give it has diminished.
    You can make some redundant or furlough some, but assuming the workers are all in the same 'pool' for redundancy/furlough then you would need a selection process using fair criteria.
    Ah I agree they have the reasons for redundancy, but selecting them isn’t going to easy. I doubt it’s going to be a problem, I can’t imagine many people want to work full time for full pay if they can do nothing for 80% of it. Just saying i think the issues some businesses will face is in my example. You could have staff wanting 100% pay so refusing furlough, or alternatively you have employees complaining they are doing 40 more hours then one of their colleagues for effectively around 13% extra net pay. 

    Then you wouldn't select them on 'their' preferences i.e. voluntary redundancy. You would use fair criteria - skillset, disciplinary record, attendance record (although caution for any absence related to a disability) and so on - but particularly not last in first out as this would likely be deemed age discrimination.
    Nothing is ever easy, but it is doable and entirely lawful insofar as employment law is concerned.
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  

    Redundancy is where work has ceased or diminished - and in the example you give it has diminished.
    You can make some redundant or furlough some, but assuming the workers are all in the same 'pool' for redundancy/furlough then you would need a selection process using fair criteria.
    Ah I agree they have the reasons for redundancy, but selecting them isn’t going to easy. I doubt it’s going to be a problem, I can’t imagine many people want to work full time for full pay if they can do nothing for 80% of it. Just saying i think the issues some businesses will face is in my example. You could have staff wanting 100% pay so refusing furlough, or alternatively you have employees complaining they are doing 40 more hours then one of their colleagues for effectively around 13% extra net pay. 

    Then you wouldn't select them on 'their' preferences i.e. voluntary redundancy. You would use fair criteria - skillset, disciplinary record, attendance record (although caution for any absence related to a disability) and so on - but particularly not last in first out as this would likely be deemed age discrimination.
    Nothing is ever easy, but it is doable and entirely lawful insofar as employment law is concerned.
    Agreed. Just another headache on top for employers though. Many small businesses do not have the legal expertise to deal with such matters which I can see leading to some rash unlawful decisions. I know of a few already. 
  • My lot have furloughed about 20% of the UK workforce, everyone else (including contractors like me) has been asked to take a 20% reduction in pay for three months, together with doing 20% less work. Although voluntary, the latter has encouragingly had a take up rate of well over 95%. The highest earners will be expected to take the rate cut but still do 100% of their hours.

    Given the vast majority of furloughed staff will be receiving 80% of their normal pay, this seems to me like a pretty fair way of doing things. Hope and expect that we can return to full rate and full hours by the end of June.

      
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    Chizz said:
    Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    The employer pays the staff on the normal payroll.  HMRC then pays 80% (up to the ceiling level) to the employer.  

    (You can choose to pay the staff anything between 80% and 100% of their normal salary.  You can defer other payments such as pension contributions.  You have to have seek and get the agreement of the staff). 
    Thanks.  I'm happier this way as I know my guys will get paid on time and that is my priority.

    I'll let my mate's daughter know her boss has the wrong end of the stick (or is maybe just trying it on)
    The last point (that the member of staff has to agree to being furloughed) is often missed.

    Very true, but the conversation could go something like: "There is no work for you to do and we have two options, furlough where you will get 80% of your pay, or redundancy. You don't have to agree to be furloughed, but regrettably if you do not agree then there will be no alternative but to make your role redundant".

    Hmmm tricky one!

    That position is not difficult to defend at all - irrespective of length of service.
    I think the only problem is where the business is still open but needs less staff. 

    My brother in law is a mechanic and they are still open but wanted to reduce the staff. They needed to reduce the staff by keeping some working and furloughing others. In that position it’s tricky if you have staff refusing to furlough. You can’t make them all redundant as they have work on, just much less of it.  

    Redundancy is where work has ceased or diminished - and in the example you give it has diminished.
    You can make some redundant or furlough some, but assuming the workers are all in the same 'pool' for redundancy/furlough then you would need a selection process using fair criteria.
    Ah I agree they have the reasons for redundancy, but selecting them isn’t going to easy. I doubt it’s going to be a problem, I can’t imagine many people want to work full time for full pay if they can do nothing for 80% of it. Just saying i think the issues some businesses will face is in my example. You could have staff wanting 100% pay so refusing furlough, or alternatively you have employees complaining they are doing 40 more hours then one of their colleagues for effectively around 13% extra net pay. 

    Then you wouldn't select them on 'their' preferences i.e. voluntary redundancy. You would use fair criteria - skillset, disciplinary record, attendance record (although caution for any absence related to a disability) and so on - but particularly not last in first out as this would likely be deemed age discrimination.
    Nothing is ever easy, but it is doable and entirely lawful insofar as employment law is concerned.
    Agreed. Just another headache on top for employers though. Many small businesses do not have the legal expertise to deal with such matters which I can see leading to some rash unlawful decisions. I know of a few already. 

    Yes you are correct - it is a minefield for small businesses.
  • My Mrs’s firm, Estée Lauder, have told her that she is on this and will get paid 100% of here basic as normal. They will then be claiming the 80% back from HMRC.

    She has been doing loads of conference calling and has been given "exercises" to do during the last couple of weeks, which I thought would be against the rules (seeing as the Government are paying her), but she was told that as long as she isn't selling for them, they can ask her to carry on? She doesn't mind this, but she has recently been asked to pretend she a QVC presenter and film herself selling certain things. It’s all supposedly meant to be good for their wellbeing, but it's been giving her sleepless nights at the moment.....


  • My Mrs’s firm, Estée Lauder, have told her that she is on this and will get paid 100% of here basic as normal. They will then be claiming the 80% back from HMRC.

    She has been doing loads of conference calling and has been given "exercises" to do during the last couple of weeks, which I thought would be against the rules (seeing as the Government are paying her), but she was told that as long as she isn't selling for them, they can ask her to carry on? She doesn't mind this, but she has recently been asked to pretend she a QVC presenter and film herself selling certain things. It’s all supposedly meant to be good for their wellbeing, but it's been giving her sleepless nights at the moment.....


    There are very strict laws in place around furloughing. Sounds to me that her employer is infringing those laws. If you are furloughing staff those staff are not allowed to do any work and should not even be contacted by the employer other than to check on their wellbeing.
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  • Swisdom said:
    My understanding up until this point is the I, as the employer, will pay any furloughed staff the 80% of their salary and then claim it back from HMRC however a friend's daughter was told yesterday she will get paid by HMRC and her boss cannot guarantee when this will be. (HMRC apparently "aim" to pay within 6 working days)

    Obviously 2 very different scenarios and with the system on HMRC not being set up until Monday 20th April...and highly likely to crash on day one...I'm wondering if this is going to be a massive clusterfuck and people will get paid late etc etc

    Anyone got any insight on this as much of the wording I have found online is so fucking woolly and non--comittal however I found something on the CIPD website yesterday that implied HMRC will be paying the individuals however my accountant is of the opinion I will pay it and reclaim.

    Poxy virus!
    is it possible they're saying they cannot afford to pay the 80% until they get the grant so she will have to wait? Moneysavingexpert cover that here

    "4) Employer refusing furlough as it doesn't have the cash for salaries in the meantime? You can agree to delayed pay. The state will cover furloughed employees' salaries from March to May. Firms should be able to apply for this cash next week, and receive it hopefully days after that. Many people have reported to me that their firms are so short of cash to pay now, they won't furlough but instead offer unpaid leave/redundancy.

    So many have asked if their firm could delay their pay. The Govt told me that's a matter between employer and employee. So you and your employer can agree it can pay you a little later (it's better than nowt), though best it's done via a formal agreement."
  • My wife got given a choice... take furlough pay or you'll be let go

    Thanks for posting this thread, her Company are bloody useless so wont be surprised if they manage to f**k up
    Useless is an understatement for that place
  • My Mrs’s firm, Estée Lauder, have told her that she is on this and will get paid 100% of here basic as normal. They will then be claiming the 80% back from HMRC.

    She has been doing loads of conference calling and has been given "exercises" to do during the last couple of weeks, which I thought would be against the rules (seeing as the Government are paying her), but she was told that as long as she isn't selling for them, they can ask her to carry on? She doesn't mind this, but she has recently been asked to pretend she a QVC presenter and film herself selling certain things. It’s all supposedly meant to be good for their wellbeing, but it's been giving her sleepless nights at the moment.....


    A furloughed employee should receive 80% of their salary but not do any work whatsoever. 

    Sounds like Estee Lauder are completely manipulating the system. They are offering the goodwill of the 20% extra (which they have absolutely no legal obligation to do) but she should not be doing any work whatsoever. 

    Even if she worked 30 hours a week and they have reduced this to 6 hours for 20% of her wages, that's forbidden. Very naughty of them there. 
  • I'm due to speak to Mrs this afternoon, so will ask her to confirm what I've said on here is correct and take it from there
  • Some interesting bits here.

    One thing I keep reading is reports of business owners stuck between a rock and a hard place, which is understandable and must be really difficult, but what stumps me is how some refer to the low salary they take, an example was two painter and decorators who take £600 a month each as salary, surely thats against minimum wage rules (unless they are only working about 65 hours a month), or does that not apply if you own the business?
  • Minimum wage doesn't apply to self-employed people
  • Apparently it's fine, and even encouraged by the Government, to train staff who have been furloughed?
  • Apparently it's fine, and even encouraged by the Government, to train staff who have been furloughed?

    'Furloughed employees can engage in training, as long as in undertaking the training the employee does not provide services to, or generate revenue for, or on behalf of their organisation or a linked or associated organisation. Furloughed employees should be encouraged to undertake training.

    Where training is undertaken by furloughed employees, at the request of their employer, they are entitled to be paid at least their appropriate national minimum wage for this time. In most cases, the furlough payment of 80% of an employee’s regular wage, up to the value of £2,500, will provide sufficient monies to cover these training hours. However, where the time spent training attracts a minimum wage entitlement in excess of the furlough payment, employers will need to pay the additional wages (see National Minimum Wage Section for more details).'

  • edited April 2020
    Apparently it's fine, and even encouraged by the Government, to train staff who have been furloughed?
    Yes I do believe employees can still undertake training on the condition the training does not contstitute providing any kind of service to the employer. 
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