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Wigan financial woes - up for sale again? p40

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  • The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No

    The whole point of rolling the points to next season is to stop a team stranded in the relegation places, getting a "free" 12 point hit. That won't apply to Wigan unless they get no more points this season and several teams overtake them.
  • The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No, if they finish in the bottom 3 (before points are deducted) they’ll get 12 points deducted next season. 
  • The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No. Unless they finish in the relegation zone regardless of any deduction (unlikely) they will be docked 12 points. 
  • edited July 2020
    MrLargo said:
    Sky Sports News speaking to one of the administrators. He said it's a well run club, on the pitch and off. They were taken over 4 weeks ago and are now in administration because "the new owner has decided he doesn't want to continue funding the business".

    WTF. How the f*ck?! So EFL approves the deal, new owner loses interest/has a change of heart - 88 year old club's future in jeopardy, jobs in jeopardy, probably going to be relegated. Unbelievable.

    Why are we even going through the charade of this Fit and proper Persons Test? So angry hearing this. And we all know this could so easily be our club next. Absolutely farcical.
    I agree it's a farce but how do the EFL test that they won't change thier mind?

    The biggest problem is the clubs ALL need owner funding to survive.  Solve that and everything else either falls into place or becomes irrelevant. 
  • EFL & management of change of ownership is not fit for purpose. 
  • edited July 2020
    Luton and Barnsley are in good form but at some point soon the nerves will start to jangle for all the relegation threatened teams. One dodgy result could be a disaster. I still think it’s literally any three from eight now that Wigan are going to be deducted. 
  • The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No, if they don't finish in the relegation zone, points are deducted and they potentially go down. If they finish in the relegation zone... the deduction rolls over to next season.
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  • I was taking it as a given that they won't finish in the bottom three without a deduction. 
  • johnny73 said:
    johnny73 said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    Do you think there is a chance we could enter administration this season, same as Wigan?
    You would think our owners would want to bank the income from EFL and players sales first. Send the money out as consultancy fees, perhaps agreed payments to former club owners (Nimer / Southall) etc. Then go into admin when Duche comes calling for his 1.5 million.

    That's a cynical view if they can't find a legit buyer.


    Sorry mate I must've missed this, what £1.5m are you referring to?

    If we stay up we have to pay Duche 1.5million.

    Again anyone please correct me if I have this wrong.
    Hopefully that Gomez clause is true, because I can't see us finding £1.5m without it.
  • johnny73 said:
    johnny73 said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    Do you think there is a chance we could enter administration this season, same as Wigan?
    You would think our owners would want to bank the income from EFL and players sales first. Send the money out as consultancy fees, perhaps agreed payments to former club owners (Nimer / Southall) etc. Then go into admin when Duche comes calling for his 1.5 million.

    That's a cynical view if they can't find a legit buyer.


    Sorry mate I must've missed this, what £1.5m are you referring to?

    If we stay up we have to pay Duche 1.5million.

    Again anyone please correct me if I have this wrong.
    Hopefully that Gomez clause is true, because I can't see us finding £1.5m without it.
    But then I assume Roland wouldn't put the club into administration to reclaim the £1.5m, I can't see how that would benefit him

    If anything I wonder if there is a clause in which ownership reverts to him if ESI don't pay the money?
  • johnny73 said:
    johnny73 said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    Do you think there is a chance we could enter administration this season, same as Wigan?
    You would think our owners would want to bank the income from EFL and players sales first. Send the money out as consultancy fees, perhaps agreed payments to former club owners (Nimer / Southall) etc. Then go into admin when Duche comes calling for his 1.5 million.

    That's a cynical view if they can't find a legit buyer.


    Sorry mate I must've missed this, what £1.5m are you referring to?

    If we stay up we have to pay Duche 1.5million.

    Again anyone please correct me if I have this wrong.
    Hopefully that Gomez clause is true, because I can't see us finding £1.5m without it.
    already been said I believe that the central payments in the championship will easily cover the 1.5million to Roland. 
  • edited July 2020
    Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    I think 1 team will go down with 52, or more points. 
    With Wigan heading for safety before this, they’ve now effectively got 38 points.

    Bottom 6 is therefore:
    Stoke 43
    Hull 42
    Huddersfield 42
    Barnsley 41
    Luton 40
    Wigan 38

    Therefore, you’re saying that 4 of them, plus Middlesbrough on 44 and us on 46, will get more than 52 points? That’s a hell of an ask.

    That’s why I believe 52 now will be enough.
    I would normally say its impossible but everyone is picking up points, not just draws, winning games. 

    If Birmingham loose tonight but win at the weekend they won't be safe yet.  Win tonight and loose at the weekend however they probably will be.

    Do you think 2 wins will make us safe? I don't. 
    You’ve got to remember that teams at the bottom are all playing each other so they all can’t win.

    There will be points dropped along the way.

    With a team finishing on 52 points and still going down, you’re asking everyone else at the bottom in this fight to go on promotion form for the rest of the season. That just won’t happen.

    There will be twists and turns, teams will win games but relegation on 52 is now less of a probability.

    In terms of teams playing each other at the bottom of the league:

    Wigan have been on amazing form but effectively have 38 points now. They’ve got to play QPR, Barnsley, Hull, and us.

    Luton have got to play Reading, Barnsley, Huddersfield, QPR, and Hull.

    Barnsley have got to play Stoke, Luton, and Wigan.

    Huddersfield have got to play Birmingham, Reading, and Luton.

    Hull have got to play Middlesbrough, Wigan, and Luton.

    Stoke have got to play Barnsley and Birmingham.

    Middlesbrough have got to play Hull, QPR, and Reading, with Wednesday on the final game of the season.

    ——
    The point I am making is, there are around 16 fixtures of teams at the bottom playing each other which means there are going to be plenty of points dropped, making it extremely difficult for 6 of the bottom 8 teams to get 52 points or more.

    Overall, yes, I believe if we win another 2 games we will stay up.
    I think the total needed will be between 49 and 51. It is understandable to worry we will need more, especially when some teams are putting up a fight but as has been said there are a lot of games where points have to be dropped by somebody and enough teams down there to expect not all of them will show automatic promotion form.
  • So the Wigan mob who own them now have spent £15-£40m(can’t be bothered to re read guff again) and are just chucking it in Cos running costs too high and football is just a black hole 
    seriously as I have said all along , who in their right mind would own a football club , what are these clowns at ESI up to 
  • You have to feel sorry for Paul Cook and his players. They have done so well to guide themself away from the drop zone since the start of the year to get the rug pulled away from them.

    I do wonder if this will knock them and they will struggle again. 
  • Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    I think 1 team will go down with 52, or more points. 
    With Wigan heading for safety before this, they’ve now effectively got 38 points.

    Bottom 6 is therefore:
    Stoke 43
    Hull 42
    Huddersfield 42
    Barnsley 41
    Luton 40
    Wigan 38

    Therefore, you’re saying that 4 of them, plus Middlesbrough on 44 and us on 46, will get more than 52 points? That’s a hell of an ask.

    That’s why I believe 52 now will be enough.
    I would normally say its impossible but everyone is picking up points, not just draws, winning games. 

    If Birmingham loose tonight but win at the weekend they won't be safe yet.  Win tonight and loose at the weekend however they probably will be.

    Do you think 2 wins will make us safe? I don't. 
    You’ve got to remember that teams at the bottom are all playing each other so they all can’t win.

    There will be points dropped along the way.

    With a team finishing on 52 points and still going down, you’re asking everyone else at the bottom in this fight to go on promotion form for the rest of the season. That just won’t happen.

    There will be twists and turns, teams will win games but relegation on 52 is now less of a probability.

    In terms of teams playing each other at the bottom of the league:

    Wigan have been on amazing form but effectively have 38 points now. They’ve got to play QPR, Barnsley, Hull, and us.

    Luton have got to play Reading, Barnsley, Huddersfield, QPR, and Hull.

    Barnsley have got to play Stoke, Luton, and Wigan.

    Huddersfield have got to play Birmingham, Reading, and Luton.

    Hull have got to play Middlesbrough, Wigan, and Luton.

    Stoke have got to play Barnsley and Birmingham.

    Middlesbrough have got to play Hull, QPR, and Reading, with Wednesday on the final game of the season.

    ——
    The point I am making is, there are around 16 fixtures of teams at the bottom playing each other which means there are going to be plenty of points dropped, making it extremely difficult for 6 of the bottom 8 teams to get 52 points or more.

    Overall, yes, I believe if we win another 2 games we will stay up.
    5 points will be enough. 
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  • johnny73 said:
    johnny73 said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    Do you think there is a chance we could enter administration this season, same as Wigan?
    You would think our owners would want to bank the income from EFL and players sales first. Send the money out as consultancy fees, perhaps agreed payments to former club owners (Nimer / Southall) etc. Then go into admin when Duche comes calling for his 1.5 million.

    That's a cynical view if they can't find a legit buyer.


    Sorry mate I must've missed this, what £1.5m are you referring to?

    If we stay up we have to pay Duche 1.5million.

    Again anyone please correct me if I have this wrong.
    Hopefully that Gomez clause is true, because I can't see us finding £1.5m without it.
    already been said I believe that the central payments in the championship will easily cover the 1.5million to Roland. 
    Thank you, I must've missed that.
  • shine166 said:
    The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No, if they don't finish in the relegation zone, points are deducted and they potentially go down. If they finish in the relegation zone... the deduction rolls over to next season.
    If Wigan are relegated then the 12 point deduction would take place next season in L1.

    If Wigan are not relegated, they will be deducted 12 points at the end of the season, which may or may not result in relegation.

    I think Wigan could appeal under force majeure.
  • edited July 2020
    Thats happened very quietly!!... Didnt realise that Wigan were being ran that badly
    We have so far just heard of the handful of cases that have hit national headlines. If you delve into the local press reporting for many clubs I think you'll find plenty more horror stories there bubbling away. A lot of clubs probably have convoluted and indebted ownership structures right through the pyramid. For example, take any club and see what you can find.  (A quick research on each of Bristol Rovers, Swindon, and Oxford, shows recent issues that likely undermine any confidence in their medium term stabilities)

    Then consider the current economic/ social climate and being 'run badly' is overtaken by bigger risk factors. We are seeing extraneous forces in play now, i.e. coronovirus, and possibly Hong Kong politics in the case of Wigan.

    Ordinarily, once costs exceed revenue and funding is squeezed or withdrawn, and creditors get restless, the financial health of any club could spiral downwards. The virus has accentuated matters no doubt. Lots more bad news to come. The efl is going to be overwhelmed if they weren't already.

    In recent times, our own and Wigan's experience to name just 2, tells us a recent takeover is also a high risk factor.

  • shine166 said:
    The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    No, if they don't finish in the relegation zone, points are deducted and they potentially go down. If they finish in the relegation zone... the deduction rolls over to next season.
    If Wigan are relegated then the 12 point deduction would take place next season in L1.

    If Wigan are not relegated, they will be deducted 12 points at the end of the season, which may or may not result in relegation.

    I think Wigan could appeal under force majeure.
    There was nothing from the administrator speaking on Sky Sports that suggested they'd be appealing. 

    What would be their grounds for appeal? Their new Hong Kong-based investor wasn't aware that football clubs were losing money hand-over-fist because of a global pandemic that originated in China?!
  • The problem for Wigan if I understand how it works is not only are they now adrift at the bottom, but if they save themselves, which they are capable of doing, they get deducted the points next season. Is that correct?
    NO.
  • Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    I think 1 team will go down with 52, or more points. 
    With Wigan heading for safety before this, they’ve now effectively got 38 points.

    Bottom 6 is therefore:
    Stoke 43
    Hull 42
    Huddersfield 42
    Barnsley 41
    Luton 40
    Wigan 38

    Therefore, you’re saying that 4 of them, plus Middlesbrough on 44 and us on 46, will get more than 52 points? That’s a hell of an ask.

    That’s why I believe 52 now will be enough.
    I would normally say its impossible but everyone is picking up points, not just draws, winning games. 

    If Birmingham loose tonight but win at the weekend they won't be safe yet.  Win tonight and loose at the weekend however they probably will be.

    Do you think 2 wins will make us safe? I don't. 
    You’ve got to remember that teams at the bottom are all playing each other so they all can’t win.

    There will be points dropped along the way.

    With a team finishing on 52 points and still going down, you’re asking everyone else at the bottom in this fight to go on promotion form for the rest of the season. That just won’t happen.

    There will be twists and turns, teams will win games but relegation on 52 is now less of a probability.

    In terms of teams playing each other at the bottom of the league:

    Wigan have been on amazing form but effectively have 38 points now. They’ve got to play QPR, Barnsley, Hull, and us.

    Luton have got to play Reading, Barnsley, Huddersfield, QPR, and Hull.

    Barnsley have got to play Stoke, Luton, and Wigan.

    Huddersfield have got to play Birmingham, Reading, and Luton.

    Hull have got to play Middlesbrough, Wigan, and Luton.

    Stoke have got to play Barnsley and Birmingham.

    Middlesbrough have got to play Hull, QPR, and Reading, with Wednesday on the final game of the season.

    ——
    The point I am making is, there are around 16 fixtures of teams at the bottom playing each other which means there are going to be plenty of points dropped, making it extremely difficult for 6 of the bottom 8 teams to get 52 points or more.

    Overall, yes, I believe if we win another 2 games we will stay up.
    I'm 99% certain 52 points would keep us up, with our goal difference.
    I'm 90% confident 51 would as well.
  • edited July 2020
     :o 
  • Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    Sage said:
    Horrible for any club and goes to show it can happen to any club below the Premier League completely out of the blue.

    We have to be so careful that this doesn’t happen to us, as we all know it’s a very real possibility.

    In terms of survival hopes, it does make it seem as though if we get to 52 points, that will surely be enough now.

    Wigan’s form has been incredible, luckily for them it has, otherwise they’d be gone now. However, I don’t believe they’ll carry on this form as good as they have been. They may still do well, but they’ll drop points along the way, especially with the quick turnaround in games.

    That means if we get to 52, that should be enough. That’s a hell of an ask for teams below us to get more than that, and for Wigan to get more 64 or more points.
    I think 1 team will go down with 52, or more points. 
    With Wigan heading for safety before this, they’ve now effectively got 38 points.

    Bottom 6 is therefore:
    Stoke 43
    Hull 42
    Huddersfield 42
    Barnsley 41
    Luton 40
    Wigan 38

    Therefore, you’re saying that 4 of them, plus Middlesbrough on 44 and us on 46, will get more than 52 points? That’s a hell of an ask.

    That’s why I believe 52 now will be enough.
    I would normally say its impossible but everyone is picking up points, not just draws, winning games. 

    If Birmingham loose tonight but win at the weekend they won't be safe yet.  Win tonight and loose at the weekend however they probably will be.

    Do you think 2 wins will make us safe? I don't. 
    You’ve got to remember that teams at the bottom are all playing each other so they all can’t win.

    There will be points dropped along the way.

    With a team finishing on 52 points and still going down, you’re asking everyone else at the bottom in this fight to go on promotion form for the rest of the season. That just won’t happen.

    There will be twists and turns, teams will win games but relegation on 52 is now less of a probability.

    In terms of teams playing each other at the bottom of the league:

    Wigan have been on amazing form but effectively have 38 points now. They’ve got to play QPR, Barnsley, Hull, and us.

    Luton have got to play Reading, Barnsley, Huddersfield, QPR, and Hull.

    Barnsley have got to play Stoke, Luton, and Wigan.

    Huddersfield have got to play Birmingham, Reading, and Luton.

    Hull have got to play Middlesbrough, Wigan, and Luton.

    Stoke have got to play Barnsley and Birmingham.

    Middlesbrough have got to play Hull, QPR, and Reading, with Wednesday on the final game of the season.

    ——
    The point I am making is, there are around 16 fixtures of teams at the bottom playing each other which means there are going to be plenty of points dropped, making it extremely difficult for 6 of the bottom 8 teams to get 52 points or more.

    Overall, yes, I believe if we win another 2 games we will stay up.
    The tricky scenario is if 2 of the sides below us collapse completely (e.g. Stoke and Hull), losing all the 6 pointers, with the rest of the teams playing well AND all the 6 pointers between them resulting in wins for one of the sides. You could end up with 2 relegated teams in the mid 40s with the next 5 teams all bunched around say the 52/53 point mark.

    Unlikely, but possible. Say Luton win 4, draw 1 and lose to Barnsley, Barnsley win 4 and lose 2 to Wigan and Brentford. That would leave both on 53 points

    Wigan win 5 matches, that would leave them on 65-12 = 53


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