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Derby Ground sale: seriously, what is now happening?

Coyotejohn1947Coyotejohn1947
edited August 2020 in General Charlton
Having sold their ground to their owner for 81 million:

Mel Morris bought Pride Park from the club for £81m in June 2018.

That sale allowed the Rams to turn a projected loss into a profit, which meant they avoided breaching the limit for allowable losses.

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I now understand that they have secured a loan against the collateral provided by the Ground (presumably up to 81 million?).

Help, I don't get it - does anyone out there know what is going on?

I know that selling the ground is not against EFL rules (but putting the sale into the wrong accounting year is as Sheff Wed found out when discovered)

But if Derby sold the ground and then took in the profit (81 million to offset losses and stay within FFP) then can it be right that the same  Club then profits a second time by utilising the ground as collateral for a loan?

Totally perplexed but can it be that Derby have found two legitimate loopholes in evading FFP?


Comments

  • randy andyrandy andy
    How can they use the ground as collateral if they've already sold it? Either they lied to the EFL or they lied to the bank.

    The only other option is they sold it for 81m and then bought it back for a far smaller sum. That may be a loophole, but it needs to be closed ASAP or FFP is dead. Any yeah might be overspending, just sell your ground to yourself for the amount you've overspent, and then buy it back for a penny. Rinse and repeat
  • Dansk_RedDansk_Red
    They have secured a £30m loan from Michael Dell's New York investment Firm MSD Capital. 
  • rananegrarananegra
    It's ok they are going to get a points deduction in 2022/23
  • Big WilliamBig William
    81 million? Have they struck oil under the pitch?
  • HornchurchHornchurch
    This will just confirm to Roland that The Valley is worth £50 million.
  • golfaddickgolfaddick
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
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  • bazjonsterbazjonster
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    Eh? Literally 10 minutes walk (if that) from the train station and 1.5 miles from the city centre!

    Are you sure you were in Derby?
  • Leeds_AddickLeeds_Addick
    bazjonster said:
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    Eh? Literally 10 minutes walk (if that) from the train station and 1.5 miles from the city centre!

    Are you sure you were in Derby?
    Tbf from memory it's directly surrounded by a load of A-roads and not much else. Makes it seem more out of town than it actually is.
  • limeygentlimeygent
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    Should've stayed on the train one more stop.
  • soapy_jonessoapy_jones
    edited August 2020
    Big William said:
    81 million? Have they struck oil under the pitch?
    Derby the town ain't worth 81m...  fucking chancers!
  • Charlton_ColeCharlton_Cole
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    In the last couple of years they've opened up the other side of the train station which cuts off about 15 minutes walk. It's now probably only about a 10 minute walk from the station. 
  • golfaddickgolfaddick
    edited August 2020
    limeygent said:
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    Should've stayed on the train one more stop.
    I went by car. Parked up on a side road somewhere & walked for about 20 mins as far as I can remember. Just seemed to be in the middle of a field. 

    This was in the Premier League days obviously. Early 2000's, so almost 20 years ago. 
  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    edited August 2020
    If the rules changed that coaching staff salaries counted the same as players, Derby would make Rooney Player/Tea Lady and he would be the highest paid tea lady in the world. Come on EFL, can't you see they are taking the piss out of you now?
  • iaitchiaitch
    If a person plays for the team then they are players irrespective of whether they do coaching too.

    Whats to stop a team saying all personnel are coaches and thereby get round the rules?


  • Athletico CharltonAthletico Charlton
    I assume that either Mel Morris has taken the loan then either loaned it or given it as equity to Derby County.

    Or. The LTD Company that owns Pride Park has given a lender a third party charge over Pride Park as collateral for a loan in Derby's name.

    Both easily done.

    Derby are in big trouble if not promoted in the next couple of years with the liabilities they are taking on... Foolish to the extreme.
  • MuttleyCAFCMuttleyCAFC
    And isn't that the point of the rules? To stop a club doing that, which is unfair on other clubs too.
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  • letthegoodtimesrollletthegoodtimesroll
    Athletico Charlton said:
    I assume that either Mel Morris has taken the loan then either loaned it or given it as equity to Derby County.

    Or. The LTD Company that owns Pride Park has given a lender a third party charge over Pride Park as collateral for a loan in Derby's name.

    Both easily done.

    Derby are in big trouble if not promoted in the next couple of years with the liabilities they are taking on... Foolish to the extreme.
    This. Sounds like they may already be in big trouble if they’ve got to do another ‘deal’ to follow up on the previous ’deal’. 
  • Coyotejohn1947Coyotejohn1947
    This is a naive question ( I am a retired professional archaeologist not a business person)
    but if the ground was sold for £81 million and the loan secured against the ground as collateral was £30 million doesn't this suggest that the latter figure of £30 million reflects a truer figure for the ground's worth?

    In other words - the lender (evidently Michael Dell's NY investments firm according to @Dansk_Red ) is prepared to lend £30 million but in the event of something going wrong with repayment he can expect to take ownership of the ground with a recouping value of £30 million - not £81 million.

    If this was the case and the ground sale was over-inflated to the tune of £51 million then the EFL been 'done' on their profitability and sustainability rules to the tune of £51 million. 

    They (the EFL) keep reminding us that it is not against the rules to sell the ground but as others have posted - what is to stop an owner from selling the ground at a ridiculous over-inflated price?  The EFL have no control over that.

    On the face of it - Derby have not only sold the ground at an over-inflated price but have then doubled-down by securing a £30 million loan against its true value thus revealing the whole sordid underlying chicanery.

    No doubt its all legal I'm sure ....and if you can get away with it ---------?? - over to you EFL to sit on your hands and say there is nothing you can do.

    BTW to add insult to injury - if Derby did make it to the Prem having gambled all this on doing so then as long as they stayed in the Prem they would avoid any EFL FFP sanctions coming into effect until and unless they dropped back into the Championship.

    At least, I believe that to be the case and is precisely I think what happened in the case of QPR - massively overspent to get a season in the Prem and then used the TV profits gained there to pay the EFL FFP fine when they came back down with no points deduction applied.


  • Off_itOff_it
    golfaddick said:
    limeygent said:
    golfaddick said:
    It's also in the middle of nowhere. Only been there the once & never again. Remember trekking by the side of a river & on footpaths for what seemed like miles. No train station or town centre close by. 
    Should've stayed on the train one more stop.
    I went by car. Parked up on a side road somewhere in Nottingham & walked for about 20 miles as far as I can remember. Just seemed to be in the middle of a field. 

    This was in the Premier League days obviously. Early 2000's, so almost 20 years ago. 
    Fixed it for you.
  • Cordoban AddickCordoban Addick
    Coyotejohn1947 said:
    This is a naive question ( I am a retired professional archaeologist not a business person)
    but if the ground was sold for £81 million and the loan secured against the ground as collateral was £30 million doesn't this suggest that the latter figure of £30 million reflects a truer figure for the ground's worth?

    In other words - the lender (evidently Michael Dell's NY investments firm according to @Dansk_Red ) is prepared to lend £30 million but in the event of something going wrong with repayment he can expect to take ownership of the ground with a recouping value of £30 million - not £81 million.

    If this was the case and the ground sale was over-inflated to the tune of £51 million then the EFL been 'done' on their profitability and sustainability rules to the tune of £51 million. 

    They (the EFL) keep reminding us that it is not against the rules to sell the ground but as others have posted - what is to stop an owner from selling the ground at a ridiculous over-inflated price?  The EFL have no control over that.

    On the face of it - Derby have not only sold the ground at an over-inflated price but have then doubled-down by securing a £30 million loan against its true value thus revealing the whole sordid underlying chicanery.

    No doubt its all legal I'm sure ....and if you can get away with it ---------?? - over to you EFL to sit on your hands and say there is nothing you can do.

    BTW to add insult to injury - if Derby did make it to the Prem having gambled all this on doing so then as long as they stayed in the Prem they would avoid any EFL FFP sanctions coming into effect until and unless they dropped back into the Championship.

    At least, I believe that to be the case and is precisely I think what happened in the case of QPR - massively overspent to get a season in the Prem and then used the TV profits gained there to pay the EFL FFP fine when they came back down with no points deduction applied.


    Have you not heard they have found an extant Corieltauvi settlement directly under the ground which is thought to be a major centre for coin production, judging by the hoards found around the site. Also there are signs of a Roman settlement above it that includes a temple to Minerva under the car park. It has increased the value of the site by about £30m.

    Hope you are well btw.


  • Fanny FanackapanFanny Fanackapan
    MuttleyCAFC said:
    If the rules changed that coaching staff salaries counted the same as players, Derby would make Rooney Player/Tea Lady and he would be the highest paid tea lady in the world. Come on EFL, can't you see they are taking the piss out of you now?
    What's that saying ?

    " None so blind......"
  • Leroy AmbroseLeroy Ambrose
    Don't know why people are even bothering with this. The whole things a fucking joke, and nothing will ever change. Football has always been rotten to the core, all that's happening now is that the sums involved have become more obscene. 
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