When I played Sunday League, very often somebody would say 'it's a man's game'. Pele called it the 'Beautiful Game'. Was Pele a wuss?
As for masculinity well Gok Wan is as much or as little a man as Tyson Fury I would imagine.
Being different in most cultures and not hiding it takes real bravery. I always admired the gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell who has endured some horrendous abuse over the years. Showed far more strength than those who bullied him.
His treatment at the 1983 Bermondsey by-election when he stood for Labour was a shameful footnote in British politics
excuse the aside from the Bermondsey by-election .. a story told by Laurie Taylor on Radio 4's 'Talking Allowed' .. Taylor accompanied Tatchell on his door to door campaigning .. in one block of flats, the door was opened by the proverbial little old lady .. 'Hello' said Thatchell, 'I'm the Labour candidate and you can trust me 'cos I live round here' .. the old lady replied .. 'cor blimey, I couldn't trust a soul who lives round 'ere' ..
I think my dad, and mum, were great role models and loving, fantastic parents but I am a product not just of their genes but the way they brought me up and the values they instilled in me. I don't think they "fucked me up" at all, far from it (others may disagree but hey, I'm old enough now that that matters even less than it did when I was young.)
I would echo those very wise comments.
I lost my dad when I was seven and my role models were mainly women, especially my darling mum. She taught me to value all people and to respect differences - to use words to diffuse situations, not aggression (I may make an exception with Elliotttt and Farnell). I was perhaps a 'new man' long before the term became popular but it's really all about emotional intelligence.
Our sons have been brought up having those values and behaviours demonstrated to them, not rammed down their throats - and they are equally emotionally intelligent.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
My Grandad always used to say 'As you sow, so shall you reap' - made more and more sense as I got older.
I think it’s also interesting that no one has commented on the link to the Gaurdian adticle, ‘Me and my Penis’ another Male phallicy that a big cock makes you a better lover and a symbol of ‘Manliness/Manhod?’
I think it’s also interesting that no one has commented on the link to the Gaurdian adticle, ‘Me and my Penis’ another Male phallicy that a big cock makes you a better lover and a symbol of ‘Manliness/Manhod?’
I read the article but can't say it's anything I've really worried about. I think you get more relaxed as you get older.
So many contradictions attached to 'the role of the male.'
People talk about empathy, helping with the domestic chores, house husbands etc yet those who adopt that role are viewed with curiosity even suspicion. It is still the 'successful' (in terms of money and status) male that women seem to admire and lionise yet moan about too.
I've concluded that, as long as it is within the law, just plough your own furrow and sod what anybody else thinks. To paraphrase Lincoln you aren't going to please many of the people much of the time whatever you do. Hopefully there will be someone compatible out there.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.
I think it’s also interesting that no one has commented on the link to the Gaurdian adticle, ‘Me and my Penis’ another Male phallicy that a big cock makes you a better lover and a symbol of ‘Manliness/Manhod?’
I read the article but can't say it's anything I've really worried about. I think you get more relaxed as you get older.
A lot more pressure on young men now.
I agree that as one gets older it doesn't matter but as a young man, as you point out @hoof_it_up_to_benty it probably does, it did in my case.
If you look at the advertising of male underwear, the model(s) always look like they've got torpedos down the front of their pants, another ridiculous parody and potentially a very damaging one.
Yes, he put himself in harms way and I think suffered permanent brain damage after a beating by Mugabe's thugs.
Has endured some terrible things over the years and the British tabloid press treated him appallingly. Haven't always agreed with his politics but he certainly has integrity.
Would help if he smiled once in a while........I can honestly say I have never seen as much as a grin, let alone a smile.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.
Hopefully those of a later generation don't.
I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.
One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin. I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.
Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.
Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.
I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry !!
What is interesting though, is how women perceive men. I often go on "mumsnet" & the number of threads about abusive, cocklodging and useless men are numerous on a daily basis. A lot of men are perceived to be porn addicted cheating scumbags......and they are the nice ones !!
“cocklodging”?
A bloke who moves in with a girlfriend or partner & expects them to do everything around the house. Treats the place like a hotel (or like living back with their mum) & doesn't pay their way.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.
Hopefully those of a later generation don't.
I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.
One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin. I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.
Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.
Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.
Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.
I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree.
We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.
I'm currently "chatting up a bird" (such a cringeworthy sentence/description but it's true)
The fact you had to use this terminology just goes to prove the point........or you are still in the 1970's.
I said it on purpose in order to mock the typical things we hear which are associated with the cringey side of apparent masculinity. That intention was obviously not clear.
I always find it strange when I hear a woman being referred to as "a bird".
A bird has wings. It's an animal.
It's just a beyond lazy disrespectful incorrect abnormal description.
The ladies might not really care about it, themselves, one way or the other. I don't know. Maybe they actually kind of warm to it in a way. Probably seen as a cheeky chappy. "A right lad". Kind of nonsense.
When it's actually just a stupid prick copying his mates.
You open your thread with a statement that then morphs into a question with, I've always struggled with the idea of what it means to be a man, manliness and manhood? You follow this up with, ...I'm heterosexual but simply from the chest beating perspective, which seems to assert the notion that 'chest beating' is a prerequisite for being heterosexual which is abjectly simplistic. Grayson Perry is a perfect example that a cross-dressing, thoughtful, artistic and gentle man can be heterosexual man. You then conjure up another lazy stereotype with My knuckles, last time I looked, don't drag along the floor and I don't grunt... Are there knuckle dragging, chest beating macho men? Of course, but they are by no means an empirical definition of men, manliness and manhood. In one of your subsequent posts you passive aggresively 'joke' that if you like poetry, you must be a sissy which is just another of your prejudiced and ill considered 'ideas' of what is representative of manliness. It would appear that because you've never felt like a 'man' you have somehow developed a one-eyed stereotyping of those who may consider themselves so, to be insensitive brutes. You are a man, but perhaps your confusion arises from the fact that you're not the man you want/wanted to be, and you are very far from being alone in that.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.
Hopefully those of a later generation don't.
I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.
One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin. I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.
Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.
Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.
Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.
I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree.
We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.
But racism is prejudice and subsequent discrimination against people because of perceived differences. If we educate future generations that skin colour is no different to eye colour or hair colour then would that not remove the space for racism because the perception is changed.
Giving the example of football as a microcosm of society it sounds horrific in the 70s when black players were singled out for abuse because they were identified as black players. Then it seemed to subside and people stopped referring to the colour of player's skin ....certainly from what i witnessed as a regular at charlton throughout the 90s and 2000s and that players were just players. Skin colour was never an issue and I don't recall it being mentioned.
In more recent years there has been a shift to more focus on players' and managers' skin colours in the mainstream media....albeit for well intentioned reasons i.e. to draw attention to lack of proportional representation at manager and owner level for example ...but it has had the unintentional effect of turning e.g. Chris Powell Charlton manager into Chris Powell Charlton manager "and black manager" and therefore emphasising something that really shouldn't matter in this day and age.
I am articulating this very clumsily but what I am trying to get at is there may be an alternative way to progress, that addresses existing and prevailing inequalities and discrimination in society without emphasising skin colour , sex or sexuality as a defining element of a person's character. I.e. changing the perception and making it no more of a defining feature of someone's personality than the colour of our eyes.
It seems to unintentionally and unnecessarily create division and promulgate differences rather than similarities as us all merely being people.
I recommend, "Natives. Race and Class in the Ruins of Empire" written by Akala. This is an excellent book that of course doesn't have all the answers to the main subject of this thread but it is a big part of his discourse. Part life story part academic history, part polemic you may have heard or seen the very articulate author on TV, Radio and YouTube.
It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.
Hopefully those of a later generation don't.
I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.
One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin. I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.
Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.
Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.
Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.
I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree.
We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.
But racism is prejudice and subsequent discrimination against people because of perceived differences. If we educate future generations that skin colour is no different to eye colour or hair colour then would that not remove the space for racism because the perception is changed.
Giving the example of football as a microcosm of society it sounds horrific in the 70s when black players were singled out for abuse because they were identified as black players. Then it seemed to subside and people stopped referring to the colour of player's skin ....certainly from what i witnessed as a regular at charlton throughout the 90s and 2000s and that players were just players. Skin colour was never an issue and I don't recall it being mentioned.
In more recent years there has been a shift to more focus on players' and managers' skin colours in the mainstream media....albeit for well intentioned reasons i.e. to draw attention to lack of proportional representation at manager and owner level for example ...but it has had the unintentional effect of turning e.g. Chris Powell Charlton manager into Chris Powell Charlton manager "and black manager" and therefore emphasising something that really shouldn't matter in this day and age.
I am articulating this very clumsily but what I am trying to get at is there may be an alternative way to progress, that addresses existing and prevailing inequalities and discrimination in society without emphasising skin colour , sex or sexuality as a defining element of a person's character. I.e. changing the perception and making it no more of a defining feature of someone's personality than the colour of our eyes.
It seems to unintentionally and unnecessarily create division and promulgate differences rather than similarities as us all merely being people.
I don't think there is a society on earth where differences don't cause a problem - it will always be a difficult balancing act and the best you can do is to try and teach some sort of tolerance. Britain has numerous cultures living alongside each other and the conflict could be a lot worse.
It would be a lot easier if we all looked the same and thought the same way.
The 70s and 80s was a truly horrific time for racial abuse in football and it's certainly no longer ignored.
You open your thread with a statement that then morphs into a question with, I've always struggled with the idea of what it means to be a man, manliness and manhood? You follow this up with, ...I'm heterosexual but simply from the chest beating perspective, which seems to assert the notion that 'chest beating' is a prerequisite for being heterosexual which is abjectly simplistic. Grayson Perry is a perfect example that a cross-dressing, thoughtful, artistic and gentle man can be heterosexual man. You then conjure up another lazy stereotype with My knuckles, last time I looked, don't drag along the floor and I don't grunt... Are there knuckle dragging, chest beating macho men? Of course, but they are by no means an empirical definition of men, manliness and manhood. In one of your subsequent posts you passive aggresively 'joke' that if you like poetry, you must be a sissy which is just another of your prejudiced and ill considered 'ideas' of what is representative of manliness. It would appear that because you've never felt like a 'man' you have somehow developed a one-eyed stereotyping of those who may consider themselves so, to be insensitive brutes. You are a man, but perhaps your confusion arises from the fact that you're not the man you want/wanted to be, and you are very far from being alone in that.
Have I got detention, six of the best and lines Sir? Do you exert this kind of behaviour over everyone else in your life?
How boring it is that someone who assumes superior intelligence then has to pick apart my post just because you can and as some demonstration of your own self righteousness, when, despite my lack of first class English, I think it's quite clear the point I'm making and that some of my comments and further comments can be seen as tongue in cheek to demonstrate the 'maleness' of some, in fact you seem a spot on candidate in that category!
Apologies to those who need emojis to identify my stance.🙀😾😸😹😼😿👊🖖
Next time I post I'll send you a draft first and perhaps you can correct my crap English and lack of punctuation.
Ps. Do you think your user name is very PC, I think your Washington counterparts have changed theirs.
Yes, he put himself in harms way and I think suffered permanent brain damage after a beating by Mugabe's thugs.
Has endured some terrible things over the years and the British tabloid press treated him appallingly. Haven't always agreed with his politics but he certainly has integrity.
Would help if he smiled once in a while........I can honestly say I have never seen as much as a grin, let alone a smile.
I thought his sexuality might have been the issue with the way he was treated by the British press but obviously it was simply down to him not smiling enough.
Its really convenient to label people at the moment isn't it
Being a man for me is the same as being a human being in general. Do your best to be nice to people
It gets tricky though, women, in fact people in general like having doors held open for them and good manners. The first can be misconstrued by dense women as a come on, the second less so but say for example you say "thanks babe" at my local when being given your change 50% of the staff will take that as a come on. The others will see it as politeness.
Football is a interesting one, I was always of the more enthusiastic approach to winning the ball but not really a screamer and a shorter. I found the louder the screaming and shouting the less scary the player was. The reason they would scream and shout though was to appear more threatening and aggressive, same as warriors back in the day.
The toxic masculinity thing is difficult because you get misogyny sexism, aggression, condescension, rudeness all rolled in. For example, I'll always hold a door open for people because that's the decent thing to do, I'm not doing it purely for the girls and I used to try and control the more colourful parts of my vocabulary around women but living in chatham they are often more potty mouthed than me! Some people could see both of those habits as toxic masculinity or see them as a gateway into my toxic man soul.
It started off so well, I was actually enjoying the discourse for once.
It did didn't it, sadly, there's always some 'Male' who has to spoil it
To be fair, the bloke gave his opinion and you seemed to object to it and throw your toys out the pram.
Not sure if there is any previous between the two of you, which may explain things, but it's almost as if you were looking to provoke some sort of reaction with your original post so you could respond in that exact way. So, well done.
It started off so well, I was actually enjoying the discourse for once.
It did didn't it, sadly, there's always some 'Male' who has to spoil it
To be fair, the bloke gave his opinion and you seemed to object to it and throw your toys out the pram.
Not sure if there is any previous between the two of you, which may explain things, but it's almost as if you were looking to provoke some sort of reaction with your original post so you could respond in that exact way. So, well done.
I'm out.
I think my original post was just as I said and I was interested in others opinion and is why I posted, not sure what was in it that was looking to provoke?
I think men, particularly my generation and the ones I've met of my own age, aren't always comfortable with intimacy, especially around other men, which often explains the difficulty that some men have in expressing their emotions. I'm sure I was one of them at some point in my life but due to circumstances I've tried to adopt a willingness to talk and be open as possible, even at my own expense.
I do struggle with my identity and maybe my mental health plays a part in that? Often the idea of 'Maleness' and whatever that may or may not mean and of course different generations will have different responses to it. I openly acknowledge that the generation I grew up in, along with the environment has had a major influence and impact on me.
And of course opinion is fine but when someone dissects another post as if to emphasise their own prowess then I don't think that's the way to go about it.
This also highlights the difficulty with the written word, when one cannot see the others face, to get an idea of their body language in both directions, then it's very easy to take/read things the wrong way and maybe I did but I'm not convinced of that.
I accept my education was crap and I also had a part to play in that by my own behaviour.
Comments
A lot more pressure on young men now.
People talk about empathy, helping with the domestic chores, house husbands etc yet those who adopt that role are viewed with curiosity even suspicion. It is still the 'successful' (in terms of money and status) male that women seem to admire and lionise yet moan about too.
I've concluded that, as long as it is within the law, just plough your own furrow and sod what anybody else thinks. To paraphrase Lincoln you aren't going to please many of the people much of the time whatever you do. Hopefully there will be someone compatible out there.
And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.
Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.
You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.
Hopefully those of a later generation don't.
If you look at the advertising of male underwear, the model(s) always look like they've got torpedos down the front of their pants, another ridiculous parody and potentially a very damaging one.
We all know women have experienced this far greater and longer than men but the objectification is still there.
I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.
One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin. I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.
Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.
Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s&feature=emb_logo
Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.
We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.
I said it on purpose in order to mock the typical things we hear which are associated with the cringey side of apparent masculinity. That intention was obviously not clear.
I always find it strange when I hear a woman being referred to as "a bird".
A bird has wings. It's an animal.
It's just a beyond lazy disrespectful incorrect abnormal description.
The ladies might not really care about it, themselves, one way or the other. I don't know. Maybe they actually kind of warm to it in a way.
Probably seen as a cheeky chappy. "A right lad". Kind of nonsense.
When it's actually just a stupid prick copying his mates.
What a life
You follow this up with, ...I'm heterosexual but simply from the chest beating perspective, which seems to assert the notion that 'chest beating' is a prerequisite for being heterosexual which is abjectly simplistic. Grayson Perry is a perfect example that a cross-dressing, thoughtful, artistic and gentle man can be heterosexual man.
You then conjure up another lazy stereotype with My knuckles, last time I looked, don't drag along the floor and I don't grunt...
Are there knuckle dragging, chest beating macho men? Of course, but they are by no means an empirical definition of men, manliness and manhood.
In one of your subsequent posts you passive aggresively 'joke' that if you like poetry, you must be a sissy which is just another of your prejudiced and ill considered 'ideas' of what is representative of manliness.
It would appear that because you've never felt like a 'man' you have somehow developed a one-eyed stereotyping of those who may consider themselves so, to be insensitive brutes.
You are a man, but perhaps your confusion arises from the fact that you're not the man you want/wanted to be, and you are very far from being alone in that.
But racism is prejudice and subsequent discrimination against people because of perceived differences. If we educate future generations that skin colour is no different to eye colour or hair colour then would that not remove the space for racism because the perception is changed.
Giving the example of football as a microcosm of society it sounds horrific in the 70s when black players were singled out for abuse because they were identified as black players. Then it seemed to subside and people stopped referring to the colour of player's skin ....certainly from what i witnessed as a regular at charlton throughout the 90s and 2000s and that players were just players. Skin colour was never an issue and I don't recall it being mentioned.
In more recent years there has been a shift to more focus on players' and managers' skin colours in the mainstream media....albeit for well intentioned reasons i.e. to draw attention to lack of proportional representation at manager and owner level for example ...but it has had the unintentional effect of turning e.g. Chris Powell Charlton manager into Chris Powell Charlton manager "and black manager" and therefore emphasising something that really shouldn't matter in this day and age.
I am articulating this very clumsily but what I am trying to get at is there may be an alternative way to progress, that addresses existing and prevailing inequalities and discrimination in society without emphasising skin colour , sex or sexuality as a defining element of a person's character. I.e. changing the perception and making it no more of a defining feature of someone's personality than the colour of our eyes.
It seems to unintentionally and unnecessarily create division and promulgate differences rather than similarities as us all merely being people.
It would be a lot easier if we all looked the same and thought the same way.
The 70s and 80s was a truly horrific time for racial abuse in football and it's certainly no longer ignored.
How boring it is that someone who assumes superior intelligence then has to pick apart my post just because you can and as some demonstration of your own self righteousness, when, despite my lack of first class English, I think it's quite clear the point I'm making and that some of my comments and further comments can be seen as tongue in cheek to demonstrate the 'maleness' of some, in fact you seem a spot on candidate in that category!
Apologies to those who need emojis to identify my stance.🙀😾😸😹😼😿👊🖖
Next time I post I'll send you a draft first and perhaps you can correct my crap English and lack of punctuation.
Ps. Do you think your user name is very PC, I think your Washington counterparts have changed theirs.
Being a man for me is the same as being a human being in general. Do your best to be nice to people
It gets tricky though, women, in fact people in general like having doors held open for them and good manners. The first can be misconstrued by dense women as a come on, the second less so but say for example you say "thanks babe" at my local when being given your change 50% of the staff will take that as a come on. The others will see it as politeness.
Football is a interesting one, I was always of the more enthusiastic approach to winning the ball but not really a screamer and a shorter. I found the louder the screaming and shouting the less scary the player was. The reason they would scream and shout though was to appear more threatening and aggressive, same as warriors back in the day.
The toxic masculinity thing is difficult because you get misogyny sexism, aggression, condescension, rudeness all rolled in. For example, I'll always hold a door open for people because that's the decent thing to do, I'm not doing it purely for the girls and I used to try and control the more colourful parts of my vocabulary around women but living in chatham they are often more potty mouthed than me! Some people could see both of those habits as toxic masculinity or see them as a gateway into my toxic man soul.
Not sure if there is any previous between the two of you, which may explain things, but it's almost as if you were looking to provoke some sort of reaction with your original post so you could respond in that exact way. So, well done.
I'm out.
I think men, particularly my generation and the ones I've met of my own age, aren't always comfortable with intimacy, especially around other men, which often explains the difficulty that some men have in expressing their emotions. I'm sure I was one of them at some point in my life but due to circumstances I've tried to adopt a willingness to talk and be open as possible, even at my own expense.
I do struggle with my identity and maybe my mental health plays a part in that? Often the idea of 'Maleness' and whatever that may or may not mean and of course different generations will have different responses to it. I openly acknowledge that the generation I grew up in, along with the environment has had a major influence and impact on me.
And of course opinion is fine but when someone dissects another post as if to emphasise their own prowess then I don't think that's the way to go about it.
This also highlights the difficulty with the written word, when one cannot see the others face, to get an idea of their body language in both directions, then it's very easy to take/read things the wrong way and maybe I did but I'm not convinced of that.
I accept my education was crap and I also had a part to play in that by my own behaviour.
An English man.
An.
That's it I'm out