I think the only solution is to move to rolling subs.
All the whilst using a sub damages a coaches tactical options then injured players' well-being is at risk. The only way to remove that risk is to ensure a coach doesn't lose a tactical option by protecting a player.
Having a concussion sub is just like having a blood sub in rugby, in that it invites tactical abuse, especially when it's a lot lot easier to fake "suspected concussion" than it is a blood injury.
If they are concussed are they not unavailable for a fortnight
cant see many managers preferring that option
Are you sure?
Not positive but I am sure they can’t play for at least a week. My son had to sit out at least one match after falling off his bike and I thought it was the same across the board
If they are concussed are they not unavailable for a fortnight
cant see many managers preferring that option
Are you sure?
Not positive but I am sure they can’t play for at least a week. My son had to sit out at least one match after falling off his bike and I thought it was the same across the board
I seem to remember George Lapslie having to sit out a couple of weeks after getting concussion against Portsmouth two years ago
Surely there will have to be an independent doctor or assessor as they do in rugby and cricket. Although I'm not sure the football league will fund that.
The Premier League has said it hopes to start permanent concussion substitution trials from January.
It follows football's lawmakers, the International Football Association Board (Ifab), approving trials in 2021.
The new rule means permanent substitutions can be made if a player suffers a head injury, even if all replacements have already been used.
To avoid potential abuse of the rule, opposition teams will also be able to make a change at the same time.
However, Premier League clubs have voted against the use of five substitutes for a third time, despite Ifab's confirming an extension to the rule on Wednesday.
Instead, the number of top-flight players allowed on the bench has increased from seven to nine.
This measure will come into effect from matchday 14, which begins on Saturday.
"With player welfare the Premier League's priority, clubs agreed in principle to introduce additional permanent concussion substitutions following approval of the trial by the International Football Association Board yesterday," the Premier League said on Thursday.
"The Premier League will look to implement protocols which will allow a maximum of two concussion substitutes to be used per team, with the opposition side able to use the equivalent number.
"The additional concussion substitutions may be made regardless of the number of substitutions a team has made already."
Speaking before the latest decision not to allow five substitutes, Football Association chief executive Mark Bullingham said he was "surprised" top-flight clubs had not approved the change.
Bullingham also said clubs still competing in the FA Cup would be allowed to make five substitutions.
"I think when we started off at Ifab level, we fully expected all of the leading leagues to sign it off for the reason of a very congested season with a lack of pre-season," said Bullingham.
Speaking about permanent concussion substitutes, he added: "I think we have to state clearly why permanent substitutes are better.
"We had a concussion expert group pulled together by Fifa and Ifab to look at this and their view is very firmly that it's safer."
Concussion substitutes were set to be introduced at the football competitions of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics before the Games were postponed until 2021 because of coronavirus.
The ability to gather a more accurate diagnosis of head injuries has been in the spotlight after several members of England's 1966 World Cup-winning team were diagnosed with dementia.
Stiles and Jack Charlton, who both died earlier this year, had dementia, while Sir Bobby Charlton's family recently revealed he had been diagnosed with the disease.
Former Tottenham defender Jan Vertonghen also recently explained how he had felt the effects of a concussion he sustained playing for Spurs for the following nine months.
Lots of opportunities for cheating here, one would think.
Remember Ireland playing France in Paris a couple of years back in the rugby, a French went down with a knee injury, on comes the doc and says it's a HIA and he goes off holding his head!
Still doesn’t solve the problem, which is if you do a proper HIA it takes 10 minutes, and you can put a temporary sub on for that time in Rugby. You’ll still get rush HIAs in football as teams won’t want to play with 10 for anymore then they have to, or players will refuse to come off
If they are concussed are they not unavailable for a fortnight
cant see many managers preferring that option
Are you sure?
Not positive but I am sure they can’t play for at least a week. My son had to sit out at least one match after falling off his bike and I thought it was the same across the board
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
And if you have made three subs and then there's a clash of heads you would have to play with ten men without the concussion sub.
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
I think the point is that there are actually a lot more head injuries than we might think. Just because there are no Butcher style blood stained bandages doesn't mean there is not concussion or harm.
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
I think the point is that there are actually a lot more head injuries than we might think. Just because there are no Butcher style blood stained bandages doesn't mean there is not concussion or harm.
Then take the injured player off and use a normal sub, we do not need special subs for certain injuries.
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
I think the point is that there are actually a lot more head injuries than we might think. Just because there are no Butcher style blood stained bandages doesn't mean there is not concussion or harm.
Then take the injured player off and use a normal sub, we do not need special subs for certain injuries.
So you're happy for a player to continue with a head injury with possible long term effects?
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
I think the point is that there are actually a lot more head injuries than we might think. Just because there are no Butcher style blood stained bandages doesn't mean there is not concussion or harm.
Then take the injured player off and use a normal sub, we do not need special subs for certain injuries.
So you're happy for a player to continue with a head injury with possible long term effects?
No I am not, if a player receives a head injury and is deemed unfit to continue take him off and replace him with a substitute.
What I don’t understand is why all of a sudden we need special subs for certain injuries.
Whats next, a metatarsal sub and an ACL sub sitting on the bench.
Part of the attraction and excitement of football is the "unknown". Changing the laws of the game for everything that might happen, will ruin the game as we know it. IMHO, of course.
Part of the attraction and excitement of football is the "unknown". Changing the laws of the game for everything that might happen, will ruin the game as we know it. IMHO, of course.
sorry if already mentioned but, if a player gets a concussion in the opening stages of the game and is subbed, do you still have all your substitutes left or do you only get a "free" one if you have already used all your subs?
Why Do We Need Special Subs For Certain Injuries? If a player is concussed take him off and bring a normal sub on. It’s not as if head injuries happen on a regular basis.
Because otherwise you have to hold a normal/tactical sub "in reserve" in case of a head injury.
Why? It adds to the excitement when a team has used all its subs and they get another injury forcing them down to 10 men. As I said earlier how many head injuries do you see in a season.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
I think the point is that there are actually a lot more head injuries than we might think. Just because there are no Butcher style blood stained bandages doesn't mean there is not concussion or harm.
Then take the injured player off and use a normal sub, we do not need special subs for certain injuries.
So you're happy for a player to continue with a head injury with possible long term effects?
No I am not, if a player receives a head injury and is deemed unfit to continue take him off and replace him with a substitute.
What I don’t understand is why all of a sudden we need special subs for certain injuries.
Whats next, a metatarsal sub and an ACL sub sitting on the bench.
Well no, obviously. At the moment teams aren't using their available subs if a player looks like they can play on, so there's a serious issue with players not being protected. The effects of concussion aren't always immediately visible so managers can disregard suggested medical advice and the player can play on despite it being dangerous. If you do your ACL then you obviously can't play on, a sub has to be made. The reason they are looking at introducing a concussion sub is to protect players from clubs who care more about their next win than their player's future health. If you tell a manager that they can take the player off in case of concussion and he'll still have all his tactical subs left then he's more likely to do it. You'd hope over time that would reduce the stigma attached to taking off concussed players and the rule could be eased out. At the moment it's needed because players aren't being properly protected.
Where I think this is heading, if you excuse the term, is players being taken off often against their will by an independent doctor viewing an incident. We know there is a problem and I would expect more marginal collisions to result in player being taken off.
It probably means that you allow all subs to be used and if they have all been used to bring a tactically subbed player back on. I know it isn't ideal, but this is a real problem that the game can't pretend isn't there.
Of course at grass roots level, a doctor may not be a realistic option, but they do have roll on roll off subs already and managers probably need more training and decisions can also be made by the ref.
Where I think this is heading, if you excuse the term, is players being taken off often against their will by an independent doctor viewing an incident. We know there is a problem and I would expect more marginal collisions to result in player being taken off.
It probably means that you allow all subs to be used and if they have all been used to bring a tactically subbed player back on. I know it isn't ideal, but this is a real problem that the game can't pretend isn't there.
Of course at grass routes level, a doctor may not be a realistic option, but they do have roll on roll off subs already and managers probably need more training and decisions can also be made by the ref.
I do think players need to realise this is for their long term good.
Most if not all of us who played football can probably think of times we played on when groggy after some sort of head collision. The decision to play on was very much ours and what needs to change is that it no longer is.
I recall playing a game where a defender accidently back headed my head. I was really groggy for a while and my eye closed up pretty quickly. I played the rest of the game holding a wet sponge and not being with it. We were losing pretty heavily so it was incredibly stupid. We need to take these stupid calls away from players.
At grass roots level I'd like the refs to make calls for even slight collisions and managers that kick up a fuss, as some would now, would potentially get a ban. That ought to change the culture and protect players more. No reason to wait, we surely no enough to do this now.
Yes, based on you being unhappy with what changes will do to the game. Others are making points around how it can be done because it has to be done in their opinion.
Ultimately rolling subs makes cheating harder, as potentially does letting a team use all of its subs. Football has to act quickly IMO as delay could do it an increasing amount of damage.
Seems to me it would definitely be useful in cases like clashing heads, to see if concussion has been caused, although probably less useful for a chronic problem such as practising heading the ball.
Comments
All the whilst using a sub damages a coaches tactical options then injured players' well-being is at risk. The only way to remove that risk is to ensure a coach doesn't lose a tactical option by protecting a player.
Having a concussion sub is just like having a blood sub in rugby, in that it invites tactical abuse, especially when it's a lot lot easier to fake "suspected concussion" than it is a blood injury.
1st one I was out cold, second I caught a boot in the head with a nasty gash above the eyebrow.
At the time I moaned like fuck, but did thank them afterwards.
cant see many managers preferring that option
Also it notes The Premier League rejected moving to 5 subs, after the EFL moved to 5 I was sure the Prem would as well
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/55352368
The Premier League has said it hopes to start permanent concussion substitution trials from January.
It follows football's lawmakers, the International Football Association Board (Ifab), approving trials in 2021.
The new rule means permanent substitutions can be made if a player suffers a head injury, even if all replacements have already been used.
To avoid potential abuse of the rule, opposition teams will also be able to make a change at the same time.
However, Premier League clubs have voted against the use of five substitutes for a third time, despite Ifab's confirming an extension to the rule on Wednesday.
Instead, the number of top-flight players allowed on the bench has increased from seven to nine.
This measure will come into effect from matchday 14, which begins on Saturday.
"With player welfare the Premier League's priority, clubs agreed in principle to introduce additional permanent concussion substitutions following approval of the trial by the International Football Association Board yesterday," the Premier League said on Thursday.
"The Premier League will look to implement protocols which will allow a maximum of two concussion substitutes to be used per team, with the opposition side able to use the equivalent number.
"The additional concussion substitutions may be made regardless of the number of substitutions a team has made already."
Speaking before the latest decision not to allow five substitutes, Football Association chief executive Mark Bullingham said he was "surprised" top-flight clubs had not approved the change.
Bullingham also said clubs still competing in the FA Cup would be allowed to make five substitutions.
"I think when we started off at Ifab level, we fully expected all of the leading leagues to sign it off for the reason of a very congested season with a lack of pre-season," said Bullingham.
Speaking about permanent concussion substitutes, he added: "I think we have to state clearly why permanent substitutes are better.
"We had a concussion expert group pulled together by Fifa and Ifab to look at this and their view is very firmly that it's safer."
Concussion substitutes were set to be introduced at the football competitions of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics before the Games were postponed until 2021 because of coronavirus.
The ability to gather a more accurate diagnosis of head injuries has been in the spotlight after several members of England's 1966 World Cup-winning team were diagnosed with dementia.
Stiles and Jack Charlton, who both died earlier this year, had dementia, while Sir Bobby Charlton's family recently revealed he had been diagnosed with the disease.
Former Tottenham defender Jan Vertonghen also recently explained how he had felt the effects of a concussion he sustained playing for Spurs for the following nine months.
And if you have made three subs and then there's a clash of heads you would have to play with ten men without the concussion sub.
So few the old Terry Butcher photo is always rolled out.
What I don’t understand is why all of a sudden we need special subs for certain injuries.
Whats next, a metatarsal sub and an ACL sub sitting on the bench.
It probably means that you allow all subs to be used and if they have all been used to bring a tactically subbed player back on. I know it isn't ideal, but this is a real problem that the game can't pretend isn't there.
Of course at grass roots level, a doctor may not be a realistic option, but they do have roll on roll off subs already and managers probably need more training and decisions can also be made by the ref.
I recall playing a game where a defender accidently back headed my head. I was really groggy for a while and my eye closed up pretty quickly. I played the rest of the game holding a wet sponge and not being with it. We were losing pretty heavily so it was incredibly stupid. We need to take these stupid calls away from players.
At grass roots level I'd like the refs to make calls for even slight collisions and managers that kick up a fuss, as some would now, would potentially get a ban. That ought to change the culture and protect players more. No reason to wait, we surely no enough to do this now.
Ultimately rolling subs makes cheating harder, as potentially does letting a team use all of its subs. Football has to act quickly IMO as delay could do it an increasing amount of damage.
Where rugby leads, will football follow?
Seems to me it would definitely be useful in cases like clashing heads, to see if concussion has been caused, although probably less useful for a chronic problem such as practising heading the ball.
More info here: https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/mar/23/pitchside-saliva-tests-could-be-used-to-diagnose-concussion