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Lee Bowyer on his substitutions at Swindon and learning from past mistakes

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  • Hence why he should never bother explaining himself, will never please everyone

    The truth will only ever be what the fans decide it'll be
    Has he pleased anyone ?
    Good point, you're right, he didnt please anyone when we got promoted...

    Out of curiosity if he doesnt go with the same defensive rubbish, will you and other fans happily admit you were wrong?
    If he 'doesn't go with the same defensive rubbish' against teams that are equally rubbish then we won't have to admit we're wrong because we won't be.
  • Think we all agree that substitutions that fail to give, or remove an outlet into the oppo half made to protect a lead are not what any of us would call positive subs. 

    If we are being overrun and need to make a change to counter that, would still prefer an attacking  sub but can see why a more defensive setup might be ok.

    if we are ahead against a limited side, which is most sides in this league, freaking up the attack and bothering them in their final third is much more likely to benefit us. 

    Sitting back invites pressure and you only need one of their numptys to do something good for us to concede points. Hate conceding points. 
  • edited December 2020
    Hence why he should never bother explaining himself, will never please everyone

    The truth will only ever be what the fans decide it'll be
    Has he pleased anyone ?
    Good point, you're right, he didnt please anyone when we got promoted...

    Out of curiosity if he doesnt go with the same defensive rubbish, will you and other fans happily admit you were wrong?
    We're talking about his explanation for the Swindon fuck up or at least I was & I'm sure that you're well aware of that.

    I would be delighted if when leading by the odd goal with 20-25 minutes to go we kept attacking teams, kept a balanced midfield that pushed forward at every opportunity & if they needed substituting bring on an attacking player like for example somebody who the previous week had been a major influence in turning defeat into a win. Maybe a Johnny Williams type player who would occupy the opponents midfield rather than surrender the offensive & sit back to defend with 4 full backs when there was absolutely no need & if that was something that we did on a regular basis I would definitely hold my hands up & say well done LB I was wrong, you can see that your tactics were wrong & you have taken steps to address the situation. Everyone would be happy. (I think ?) 
    Well when I said he'll never please everyone I was talking in general, hence why I said he shouldnt ever bother explaining himself

    There will always be aspects and things he comes out with that people will / wont like so why should he waste his energy even trying?

    I take it you mean that same Jonny Williams when we were leading against Shrewsbury and got taken off because he ducked out of a challenge? - Bowyer got shown against Shrewsbury and Wimbledon that Williams is a great asset to come off the bench if we're chasing a game, but like Morgan was, is questionable if we're leading

    As highlighted in the tweets I posted earlier in this thread, we didnt just sit back did we, we took to hitting them on the counter attack which did happen whenever we could - As for Bowyer admitting he was wrong, he's never taken that approach, so think you'll be waiting a long time for that to happen - If that means your in a group that questions how long he has as Manager (because he alienates a few fans) then its ridiculous, as a Manager he has to be judged on a season, not per game and so far based on the start he's had, he's actually exceeding my expectations as thanks on our disruptive start I wont be surprised if we dont get promoted... I'm still very much on the fence with that matter

    I said it for weeks during the takeover that this year should always be about consolidation and rebuilding after the disruption we've had

    Wow... Bet that last bit is a shock to everyone seeing I'm the optimistic one on this forum!!
  • Think we all agree that substitutions that fail to give, or remove an outlet into the oppo half made to protect a lead are not what any of us would call positive subs. 

    If we are being overrun and need to make a change to counter that, would still prefer an attacking  sub but can see why a more defensive setup might be ok.

    if we are ahead against a limited side, which is most sides in this league, freaking up the attack and bothering them in their final third is much more likely to benefit us. 

    Sitting back invites pressure and you only need one of their numptys to do something good for us to concede points. Hate conceding points. 
    We all hate conceding points... An example last night was Doncaster v Shrewsbury that I watched, of course its a bad example as Doncaster were the better team but how they got pushed back was no different to us on Saturday

    Doncaster got desperate so started playing at the higher tempo and fortunately on that occasion didnt break through... Shrewsbury didnt make the sort of subs that we made on Saturday yet it still happened because the losing side will more often put the opposition under more pressure than the team protecting (as the latter wont want to needlessly create gaps for the opposition to exploit).

    Yet for those with hindsight on here... I presume they know we'd have won had Williams etc. been introduced, how do you all know we wouldnt have lost, going for an extra goal we didnt need? - Whose fault would it have been for bringing on Williams instead of Matthews etc.?

    We'd be asking these same questions of Bowyer can guarantee you that

    He made a decision, it didnt work this time, whats to say it wont next time?
  • edited December 2020
    Hence why he should never bother explaining himself, will never please everyone

    The truth will only ever be what the fans decide it'll be
    Has he pleased anyone ?
    Good point, you're right, he didnt please anyone when we got promoted...

    Out of curiosity if he doesnt go with the same defensive rubbish, will you and other fans happily admit you were wrong?
    If he 'doesn't go with the same defensive rubbish' against teams that are equally rubbish then we won't have to admit we're wrong because we won't be.
    But what if he replaces Maddison with Williams next time and we go from a winning position to a losing one?

    Whose fault is it then?

    Its still Bowyer's isnt it because he's made the wrong decision

    Hence, why bother trying to explain yourself to people as you'll never please everyone

    Who the hell are we to say that Bowyer got it wrong, when the decision we'd have made could have been even worse!!
  • Bows refers back to that Cov game (which I have to say I’d completely forgotten about), but off the top of my head... hull, sheff Wednesday, brentford last season, Shrewsbury and Swindon alone the last couple of weeks. I’m sure there are more and I would arguably include Barnsley at home last year which we won 2-1 but were annihilated the last 15 mins having been comfortable and really deserved to draw it in the end.

    There’s a time and a place for men behind the ball but there’s also a time and a place for letting a better side run it’s natural course and put the game to bed... really hope we can crack on and win a few 2 and 3 nils at some point this season

  • He made a decision, it didnt work this time, whats to say it wont next time?
    Because he has made the decision quite a few times over the past 2 years & it has usually led to us conceding late goals.
    Hull
    Birmingham 
    Shrewsbury
    Swindon

    Are just 4 that I can remember off the top of my head. If he just tried a different tactic for once to see what happens because currently its plainly not working. 
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  • He made a decision, it didnt work this time, whats to say it wont next time?
    Because he has made the decision quite a few times over the past 2 years & it has usually led to us conceding late goals.
    Hull
    Birmingham 
    Shrewsbury
    Swindon

    Are just 4 that I can remember off the top of my head. If he just tried a different tactic for once to see what happens because currently its plainly not working. 
    Thats fair - But how we know that bringing on Williams on for Maddison instead of Matthews would have worked any differently on Saturday?... You could say Bowyer was wrong whatever happened (unless we'd won) as you've got the hindsight that he doesnt have, eg. all three options could have resulted in different outcomes

     - We make no changes what so ever... We win
     - Defensive subs come on ... We draw
     - Williams and Levitt come on ... We lose

    Everyone would be coming on here regardless saying that Bowyer got it wrong and should have done, this and that

    Saying that Williams should have come on because he was effective against Wimbledon is rubbish (which has been one argument); Swindon arent Wimbledon, they've different players, different systems, how do WE know that it wouldnt have been another game that would have passed him by with him making zero impact?

    Its those reasons why I dont agree with people saying that Bowyer should be coming out and simply admitting he got it wrong
    Bows refers back to that Cov game (which I have to say I’d completely forgotten about), but off the top of my head... hull, sheff Wednesday, brentford last season, Shrewsbury and Swindon alone the last couple of weeks. I’m sure there are more and I would arguably include Barnsley at home last year which we won 2-1 but were annihilated the last 15 mins having been comfortable and really deserved to draw it in the end.

    There’s a time and a place for men behind the ball but there’s also a time and a place for letting a better side run it’s natural course and put the game to bed... really hope we can crack on and win a few 2 and 3 nils at some point this season
    Bowyer was referring to Coventry two years ago instead of any game last season because it was a game we utterly controlled throughout and then somehow lost it at the end, if I remember rightly Coventry looked rubbish until they equalised, we had the three points

    Cant say that was the case in any Championship game last season
  • RobRob
    edited December 2020
    It’s all very well Lee Bowyer harking back to the Coventry game. How many times have we heard “you’re only as good as the team you’re facing”. Lee, we were facing Swindon and they obviously had little threat and we were the better team by quite a long way. Why go all defensive against them! Don’t go back to the Coventry game, focus on who is in front of you on the day.
    Anyway, Lee Bowyer has just said that to give the Press a bone. We’ll see if he has learned from that or will still make his decisions based on a Coventry game from ages ago!!
  • Bow's should learn from his own observation:

    "They didn’t actually have a shot on target until they scored, in the second-half."

    I think LB focuses heavily on individual mistakes made in the final third and feels if he has enough troopers at the back we'll be fine.

    How many more troopers do you need than Pearce, Pratley and Watson....all ex-captains. With those 3 in the side, I expected a bit more game management and leadership. (Add Gunter, Maddison, Gilbey - we actually have 6 ex team/club captains in the team, so maybe that's why LB is a bit lost atm).
  • I’ll tell you want doesn’t help, is the lack of pace in our team in general.  I think a big part of us hitting teams on the break was watching Lyle Taylor come further wide in the second half of games on the right side, pulling and stretching defenders.  I remember a lot of games when attacks would start with Lyle pulling wide, get the ball, and link up with oncoming midfielders.

    to sit back is a good option, if you’ve got a bit of pace to expose a team on the break.  

    Washington, Bogle, Aneke, Williams, Maddison, none of them have the sort of pace we need for the sitting deep game.  

    I think what’s happened is that Bowyer knew we weren’t as good as some of the other teams in the Champ
    last year and probably quite rightly, set up to be more resolute and tight.  This has just crept further and further into his thinking more so out of habit I think.

    There’s a couple of things to consider.  We’re not playing in the Champ anymore, so I don’t think we’re up against the sort of opponent where we need to sit deep.  Secondly, with that lack of pace, why are we trying to hit teams on the counter?  We don’t have the mobility.  We may have the guile in Maddison and Williams to craft a pass, but they need a runner creating space.

    I think you’ve also got to take into account that the players might just not be good enough to play on the break.

    let’s hope we have learned going forward.  
  • edited December 2020
    Well, we know TS would prefer to win 5-2, lose 3-2, lose 1-0 than 3 games of turgid 1-1. All it will take is a few questions on the "pre match call" asking "Why do we let these last minute goals in?" or "Why do we hit the defensive so early when ahead" and that will make the current coaching team assess their current ways.


    We cannot comprehend that we used the tactics V Swindon considering their quality of play during the game. 
  • edited December 2020
    Good points made Cabbles.

    Doughty and Smyth have pace and they are injured.
    Bogle has pace but his football brain is problematical, but the first time I saw him he did win a penally when he got the wrong side of a defender and a red card ensued.

    Other than young Dutch master Ruud Maatsen our latest young Chelsea teenager we are a one paced team.

    It is possible in game management to have a good defensive shape without having all 11 players on the edge of your own box. Even on corners if you leave two players, say Williams or Smyth up field (smaller guys who can't defend corners anyway and get in the way) then normally two defenders would go with them leaving the keeper more space to see and not be blinded by a sea of bodies. (Amos appeared unsighted against Swindon)


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  • Hence why he should never bother explaining himself, will never please everyone

    The truth will only ever be what the fans decide it'll be
    Has he pleased anyone ?
    Good point, you're right, he didnt please anyone when we got promoted...

    Out of curiosity if he doesnt go with the same defensive rubbish, will you and other fans happily admit you were wrong?
    If he 'doesn't go with the same defensive rubbish' against teams that are equally rubbish then we won't have to admit we're wrong because we won't be.
    But what if he replaces Maddison with Williams next time and we go from a winning position to a losing one?

    Whose fault is it then?

    Its still Bowyer's isnt it because he's made the wrong decision

    Hence, why bother trying to explain yourself to people as you'll never please everyone

    Who the hell are we to say that Bowyer got it wrong, when the decision we'd have made could have been even worse!!
    You may not please everyone but it's all about percentages.
    Firstly the majority of people would feel like me that if we carried on with the same formation and let in an equaliser to a team through their own attacking endeavour, it would be acceptable.
    Secondly, nine times out of ten against a bottom 10 team, we would win if we attack simply because it makes an open game and so the team with the best attack wins, much like Liverpool do.
  • If the argument for defending a lead is because a goal conceded causes two points to be dropped then surely we should be going all out for a win when we are drawing. Otherwise we potentially end up losing both ways!

    The best teams, of course, try to win every game.

  • Really wished he'd never commented but hey ho.

    No manager should ever need to explain himself but mentioning a game from two years ago sounds like he's still in therapy for it!

    Let us all hope that Lee pulls himself and the team together as let's be honest it's a shocking league that we should be able to get out of. 

  • Total support for all of the management after what they have had to put up with the last 12 months and as everyone knows and expects this is all a learning curve for everyone, after all it is a very long time since we had a club with ambition. However there would be absolutely no excuse for us to not get promoted this season when you look at the opposition. If we dont then it would be a very bad slip up imo.
  • Dear o dear - can't see this ending well for him if he thinks he managed that game at Swindon well. Maybe he has chosen to ignore the real issue which is learning from the negative approach of the last 9 months rather than some random game from 2 years ago . Worse than ignoring it however would be if he doesn't even recognise it.Rapidly losing faith in him either way, which is a shame but a fact.
  • The key question is whether the defensive subs have secured or lost more points. Without looking at all the stats it feels much more likely to be the latter 
  • jams said:
    The key question is whether the defensive subs have secured or lost more points. Without looking at all the stats it feels much more likely to be the latter 
    that's true - u could argue the 6 games we won on the bounce were because of it but i'm not so sure - in my opinion, the relegation battle certainly wasn't helped by it and neither was Swindon and quite a few others this season - there's a lot of people who have played and watched a lot of football over the years and the vast majority want Lee to do well, so there's no agenda, but think he's getting it wrong.  
  • lets hope we do the business we want in the window - in and out -  and can look back on this as a necessary negative football patch rather than an ongoing strategy 
  • Whoever asked the questions to him, shame they could not be followed up with anything more currently relevant or from the fans?
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