Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins 4 draws 3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
I completely agree, but it's just the short-termism that exists in every level of football now. Fans want results and they want them now and if they aren't coming they look to see someone punished. In a perverse way we were quite lucky that everything about the club was so horrible in the past few years because it got us away from the constant overreactions every time a result doesn't go our way; we'd all just acknowledge that Roland/Southall/Nimer/Farnell were to blame and move on. Being on this board the past few weeks you wouldn't know that we'd actually drawn with Swindon, Plymouth or Shrewsbury. You'd think we hadn't picked up a point in months! Now that we've lost one game in five and are only 6th people are looking to have the manager sacked rather than giving him a chance to turn around an average to poor run of form and get his key players back from injury. It seems a lot of people aren't willing to just criticise an event or run in football anymore, they have to tear out the entire spine of what's happening and start over in the hopes that everything will suddenly be brilliant. You see it with the players too; go on the rumours thread and there's loads of people talking about tearing up Bogle's contract. He's not delivered but he's also only played for us for 3 months. These are often the same people who will piss and moan about there being no loyalty in football anymore and will give Alfie no end of grief if he walks at the end of his deal, or boo Grant for daring to take a move to the Premier League. That's all unacceptable to them, but when a player signs on for a year if he's not good enough in a quarter of that time they want him shipped out and replaced despite the agreement that's in place. Never mind that one of the issues with this club has been the constant churn in the squad, get me new players and instant results now!
People like to point out that Sandgaard is a good businessman and might not stand for things not going to plan. Well the majority of good businessmen know that if you've got an issue you don't just kick everyone out and start over every time, you work with the individuals and try and fix it. We've got a transfer window about to open, players to come back from injury and a loyal manager who has got us out of this division before and would have kept us in the one above if not for impossible circumstances. We're in a good spot. He's got to arrest a bad run, and we should all hope he does rather than looking over his head searching for the next bloke through the gate who we can turn on as soon as he fails to beat Burton or doesn't win for 5 games.
10 points from 9 games replicated over a full season is 51 points and I’ve just checked and 5th bottom and safety has been 50 points or less over the last few seasons . So we’re not going down anytime soon .
10 points from 9 games replicated over a full season is 51 points and I’ve just checked and 5th bottom and safety has been 50 points or less over the last few seasons . So we’re not going down anytime soon .
There you are a positive, so not so bad after all eh
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
This season was always going to be different just through the way we have all been living and working.
Throw in the fact we have a new owner that has to get to know how football is run and we have the perfect storm.
He has put his faith with Bowyer and his staff and put a few new faces in to help run the club from week to week.
We never were going to become The best club in league One overnight but this season is one of adjusting for the 2021-2022 season and trying to get through this season the best we can.
Look at the last ten games we have to play this season 8 of the clubs will be up towards the top of this division all is still to play for.
Sandgaard knows this as does Bowyer and it points only in one direction it is a learning curve that we all have to work with one another and do the best we can with limited resources.
What we end up with this season be grateful about ,unless you have forgoten about the last 7years.
Loyalty is certainly a quality in life but I'm not sure it works the same for football. Curbs said yesterday that he improved the team by being less loyal. Leicester remarkably won the league after sacking Pearson and appointing Ranieri and sacked him soon after. They are doing ok not being loyal.
England stuck loyally with Hodgson and we did crap in three major championships. Where did the loyalty help there?
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
Loyalty is certainly a quality in life but I'm not sure it works the same for football. Curbs said yesterday that he improved the team by being less loyal. Leicester remarkably won the league after sacking Pearson and appointing Ranieri and sacked him soon after. They are doing ok not being loyal.
England stuck loyally with Hodgson and we did crap in three major championships. Where did the loyalty help there?
Case in point, our first season in the Prem.
Curbs was far too loyal to the likes of Keith Jones and Shaun Newton when it was clear early on they were never up to it. I guess he felt he owed them. He never made that mistake again.
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
Right, I'll start by saying that that was bad, and that I don't agree with how Bowyer's been setting up recently. I don't have an issue with playing Pratley at CB as he's a better CB than Oshilaja and we all know it, though he let us down today with some silliness. Playing Matthews at left back is odd, especially given that Purrington is a player that really doesn't let us down. You can see what Bowyer was trying to do today with going to a flat 4-4-2 to try and get some solidity, and in many ways he tried to do exactly what he did against Hull post-lockdown. He's gone with a flat four with Albie on the left. You could even argue he's put Matthews there to deal with their threat cutting in on the right, which is exactly what he did last time, except he used Oshilaja then, and to some decent effect. What didn't help is that McGeady, average as he was, was a right winger whereas Maatsen is a LB he put on the wrong flank so there was no hope of width. Similarly Bogle isn't as good as Bonne or Hemed so we were always going to struggle in attack.
That aside though, you can see where the real problems lie. We started the season with a plan, and that plan was to use Alfie's pace out wide to counter attack off the back of a solid defensive unit. We lost Alfie, which massively affected our abilities on the break and stopped our good passers like Gilbey and Forster-Caskey having anyone to aim their raking passes to. We adapted though and settled for solidity alone, which worked. We weren't electric but we didn't concede and we were winning game after game without conceding. We then lost both of our Goliath centre backs, as well as our midfield creator in Shinnie and that's killed us completely. We now lack the pace and the solidity to play the way we'd hoped to, so Bowyer has tried to fall back on his tried and tested methods, but we didn't build a squad to suit those systems so we're not as good at it anymore. We don't have the abilities of Cullen, Bielik, Aribo and Gallagher anymore. Our midfielders are much slower and that causes us to lack any coherence between attack and defence. Add to that the fact that instead of having Lyle Taylor we have Omar Bogle and you can see where the true issues are. We desperately, desperately need pace, and we need Inniss and Famewo back. I do agree that Bowyer's attempts to pivot from our strategy have gone a bit Twilight Zone, but all this talk of sacking the manager is just bonkers when you actually think about what we're dealing with. How many other teams wouldn't struggle losing the three players absolutely vital to their way of playing long term, and then a boat-load on top of that? Add to that the wage cap and our late takeover, meaning we haven't got much depth in the squad in line with our change in style and I think any team would struggle. We're in a squad transition; remnants of one way of playing are alongside new players and when you have to mix them together in too-large quantities problems show.
Despite all that, this was our first loss in 5 games. Granted we've only won 1 in that period (though we should bear in mind there were two late equalisers in there to make things look worse), but we're still 6th. Still on for the Play-Offs despite the ridiculous amount of obstacles that have been put in the clubs way leading up to and during this season. Yet there's people who want the manager out because we've lost to probably the best team in the league and drew with Swindon. I get that people don't like the performances, but that's all part of the larger issues we've had. The entitlement since Sandgaard came in is astonishing. It will take time for us to to rebuild as a club, we might not go up this season and it might not always look pretty, but the knives coming out for Bowyer off a few dodgy decisions and the fact we're not pissing a league that we apparently 'deserve' to get promoted from is uncomfortable. Hopefully in January Schwarz can hit the ground running and we can get some pace to take the pressure off the defence and things suddenly won't look so bad. Bowyer can definitely help by making some more logical decisions but playing Maatsen and LB and our worst CB isn't going to fix the combination of injuries and the legacy of bad club management that Lee and the club have to deal with every step of the way. Chill. It'll be ok.
This is an excellent post and it makes us all think. Well done
If you have managed at some capacity or not it doesn't matter to me. I know if I was appointed Charlton manager, I would be a disaster. But we do sell ourselves a bit short as fans sometimes. If you watch games for a long time, I have been doing so before Bowyer was born, you do pick up on certain things. You can easily gain an insight as when something is wrong and something is right.
For instance, I know the best approach when we played Sheffield Wednesday, a team at the time that was bereft of any confidence, was to have a go at them. I know that yesterday was a perfect game for a player like Maddison, coming off the back of a MOTM performance with something to prove against his old club. I know that if you sit back on a lead when opponents go for broke, you will lose more points than you gain. I don't have to be a football manager to know that, I just have to have had enough experience of watching the game.
Hear, hear!
I've seen charlton play live about 1100 times. Throw in live matches I've watched on the TV and it must be about 1300.
Now I know I would be a disaster as a manager but I think I've watched enough football to have a fair idea of tactics. For example, playing a right footed player at left back, or vice versa, hardly ever works well. It neutralises much attacking threat down that side as a player playing on the wrong side always has to come inside and can't get to the touchline to whip in a dangerous cross. You don't need to be a manager to see that.
Matthews is a good right back. At left back he is like a fish out of water. Playing him there when there are other options is absurd.
Not much of a surprise to see the normally ever-dependable Matthews at fault for the 2nd goal - defending a cross from the right which is meat and drink to him normally. Problem is he'd adjusted to defending from the other side of late and these mistakes are only natural to a player.
The RB at LB experiment should have ended once Deji gave away a soft penalty playing there last season. Morgan was blamed for that goal as didn't follow the runner, but where is the learning.
So Matthews is at fault for the goal because he forgot how to play right back !!??
Given the history that we all know - the fact that the squad was assembled at the last minute on a shoestring, the lack of a pre-season, the ownership shenanigans and whatever the hell we do in training that injures people. All of that I can handle. I can understand that this squad of deadbeats, crocks and cheapos might not be good enough to get promotion, albeit from a league that a bunch of us 50 something crocks could have a decent go at not finishing last in if we put a team together. I can handle just not being good enough under the circs.
What I’m struggling to handle is the fact that I’ve no idea how good or bad this team could be. The constant tinker man selections, square pegs in round holes, the untouchable four, the defensive set up. All of those are killing whatever chance this motley crew could have. Just pick something akin to the following:
I don’t care if that’s the actual 11. I just want 11 players from this ample squad (ample in terms of numbers if not quality) in their correct positions week in week out injury permitting with instructions to go out there and try to score. If we’re no good then fine, I refer to the opening couple of paragraphs. We’d all deal with just being shite. We’ve got used to it over the last decade. But FFS give ourselves a chance. This is self neutering of almost suicidal proportions. Lee worked wonders with backs against the wall but, I’ll wager with a squad that is light years ahead of this one in terms of quality. But at least give this lot a fighting chance.
I'm not Bowyer out by any means, though he's got to finish top 6 this season or my opinion on that changes.
If we're being honest, it was his negative tactics that got us relegated last season. He gets a pass on that because the squad was pish for the champ, and the shenanigans behind the scenes must have been horrendous to work under.
People cite injuries as our issue (again), but the majority of our players are getting injured in Bowyer led training sessions. Put that with his sometimes woeful man management skills (Williams, Bogle, Albie, MM etc), and you see there's more to criticise than just the tactics and results on the pitch.
Give him a full window, one where we're not bargain bucket rummaging for players like Bogle, and let's see where we are in the summer. This league is shit, and the fact we're still 6th after this run proves that.
Yes there's too many fans calling for his head, but equally there's too many not willing to accept any criticism of him and his coaching team.
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
I don't get why people are so pesomistic about the quality of the squad.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
First of all I'll say this much, that's the last tenner I'm spending to watch us. I will start watching again based on the post match thread because I can save myself a lot of time and money by viewing this thread simply. You won't miss much not watching us play, same lack of quick tempo every game, same excuses every game, same bad players on display every game. It genuinely just ruins my Saturday so I'll be giving it a miss until we actually start playing football and not whatever it is Bowyer sets us up to do at the moment
I will say this much, TS comes in and removes Bowyer immediately I would have been fuming, now if I was to wake up to the news of Bowyer gone, being blunt I don't really care. We need a shake up, whether that's Bowyer actually playing players where they are meant to play or another manager doing it I don't care. We are absolutely awful to watch.
I'll explain myself a bit cause I don't want to come across 'knee jerk' or showing lack of loyalty towards LB. First of all I'm getting the feeling of tigres don't change their stripe with Bowyer. I think he's a bit of a bully and there's a major hierarchy in the changing room, and not the healthy experienced to non experienced player kind. Food for thought, had it been Morgan or Williams or any other player who Bowyer could pick a fight with, how do you think he would have reacted if it was them who got that sending off and not Pratley?
It's getting to a point where I am just starting to dislike Bowyer. Under Roland he was exactly what we needed, straight talking manager who got gritty results with a bad hand, I think the situation suited him to a T. Now there's an air of positivity around the club and we have an engaging owner I don't think he likes it. He clearly can't accept criticism and is 100% either a liar or delusional, there's no in-between, his post match analysis prove this. Prepared to take pelters for this and I am no way suggesting we get him but Karl Robinson is the type of manager who thrives off of our situation, bit of a whacky owner, upbeat, likes to be involved with the team, Karl and Thomas would get on like a house on fire.
Simply put, I don't think TS and LB is a long term good fit. TS is ambitious and energetic, Bowyer plays 15 defenders and is dull.
The more I type the more it feels thanks for the memories but...
I don't think Bowyer is the man to take us to the next level under our circumstances. When he was left alone under Roland I think it suited him, I don't think this situation does and I want to see Charlton do well, I'm not a Lee Bowyer supporter
Tldr;
I think we are woeful
I don't think LB and TS are a good match for Charlton, it's either one or the other
I think LB is delusional
I don't actually want KR back as manager, simply pointing out chemistry from the top is important & I really hate how crap we are to watch
Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins 4 draws 3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
Not calling for the sack ...but does feel like the beginning of the end for LB.
Its all been said above. There were red flags last season that, given the amount of credit he was in and the general situation, were quite rightly overlooked.
It was all so simple at the start. 2 players for every position. Everyone knows their job. Now backup players, known quantities, are no longer good enough to be called upon and our left back is playing right mid (to nulify the oppo!?) and keeping our best attacking players out of the starting lineup.
When we do find ourselves in front we revert to a back six for the last 20 min and almost without exception end up conceding ....against shit teams who can't belive their luck.
And of course its always the fault of specific players. Ive stopped reading/watching Bowyers post match comments as he sounds more deluded every week.
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
I don't get why people are so pesomistic about the quality of the squad.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
No pre-season to work on shape and tactics?
People will bemoan friendly results when we lose but its an opportunity for a Manager to figure out what works and doesnt
For large parts of the season its been from one game to the next with rest and recovery the focus rather than working on actual tactics
Ironically though our bad run of form has combined with the fact that we've had a few less midweek games
Of course as we know from recent interviews that Bowyer has apparently been trying to work on the attacking side of the team
But its not like he's got a pre-season friendly to play with where he can put out a squad that doesnt have to worry about the result if it goes wrong... I know we're entering a period of fixture congestion again but if a game gets cancelled due to COVID again, perhaps it would be a good idea to find another team that have had their game called off for similar reasons (yet who arent having to self-isolate) where we can have a behind closed doors game against someone to try a new approach with whatever Bowyer's ideal attacking team is.
I'm confident that at least 99% of Charlton fans will always love Bowyer, but he's not beyond criticism.
I’m not saying he is, i don’t think a single person has said he is. I’m talking about sacking him.
I certainly want him to turn it around, but something seems to have changed. He's looked more under pressure in the past 5 or 6 weeks than any other period under his time with us. Which is amazing when you consider the shit he's been dealt for the past three years.
But maybe he thrives on the previous situations? There was no real expectation.
And as there are no fans in the ground I can only think that pressure is coming from above?
It might just be a coincidence, but the change in vibe from Bowyer seems to date back to Ged Roddy showing up.
Given the history that we all know - the fact that the squad was assembled at the last minute on a shoestring, the lack of a pre-season, the ownership shenanigans and whatever the hell we do in training that injures people. All of that I can handle. I can understand that this squad of deadbeats, crocks and cheapos might not be good enough to get promotion, albeit from a league that a bunch of us 50 something crocks could have a decent go at not finishing last in if we put a team together. I can handle just not being good enough under the circs.
What I’m struggling to handle is the fact that I’ve no idea how good or bad this team could be. The constant tinker man selections, square pegs in round holes, the untouchable four, the defensive set up. All of those are killing whatever chance this motley crew could have. Just pick something akin to the following:
I don’t care if that’s the actual 11. I just want 11 players from this ample squad (ample in terms of numbers if not quality) in their correct positions week in week out injury permitting with instructions to go out there and try to score. If we’re no good then fine, I refer to the opening couple of paragraphs. We’d all deal with just being shite. We’ve got used to it over the last decade. But FFS give ourselves a chance. This is self neutering of almost suicidal proportions. Lee worked wonders with backs against the wall but, I’ll wager with a squad that is light years ahead of this one in terms of quality. But at least give this lot a fighting chance.
Spot on. And self-neutering is a brilliant description.
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
I don't get why people are so pesomistic about the quality of the squad.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
No pre-season to work on shape and tactics?
People will bemoan friendly results when we lose but its an opportunity for a Manager to figure out what works and doesnt
For large parts of the season its been from one game to the next with rest and recovery the focus rather than working on actual tactics
Ironically though our bad run of form has combined with the fact that we've had a few less midweek games
Of course as we know from recent interviews that Bowyer has apparently been trying to work on the attacking side of the team
But its not like he's got a pre-season friendly to play with where he can put out a squad that doesnt have to worry about the result if it goes wrong... I know we're entering a period of fixture congestion again but if a game gets cancelled due to COVID again, perhaps it would be a good idea to find another team that have had their game called off for similar reasons (yet who arent having to self-isolate) where we can have a behind closed doors game against someone to try a new approach with whatever Bowyer's ideal attacking team is.
But that's not an argument about what I am saying. No one had a proper preseason.
Yes we were disadvantaged by the fact we got relegated, as late as possible and lost most of our squad. As is normal. That was then compounded by the embargo.
The point I am making is are players aren't "shit", to the extent some people are making out. Its not a team of has beens or never were. As the case has been over previous non successful league 1 seasons of the recent past.
Almost all our players are in the 25-32 range where they should be at their peek. All of them have played at a higher level, bar Levitt and its unfair to include him.
With the exception of Maatsen, Doughty, Watson and Gunter they have all been promoted or got transfers to Championship clubs from there league 1 (2 in Bogle's case) performances. And Gunter and Watson had played over 1000 games between them before they dropped down to this level.
It's not the last minute bargain basement rag tag and bobtail motley crew some make out.
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
I don't get why people are so pesomistic about the quality of the squad.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
No pre-season to work on shape and tactics?
People will bemoan friendly results when we lose but its an opportunity for a Manager to figure out what works and doesnt
For large parts of the season its been from one game to the next with rest and recovery the focus rather than working on actual tactics
Ironically though our bad run of form has combined with the fact that we've had a few less midweek games
Of course as we know from recent interviews that Bowyer has apparently been trying to work on the attacking side of the team
But its not like he's got a pre-season friendly to play with where he can put out a squad that doesnt have to worry about the result if it goes wrong... I know we're entering a period of fixture congestion again but if a game gets cancelled due to COVID again, perhaps it would be a good idea to find another team that have had their game called off for similar reasons (yet who arent having to self-isolate) where we can have a behind closed doors game against someone to try a new approach with whatever Bowyer's ideal attacking team is.
But that's not an argument about what I am saying. No one had a proper preseason.
Yes we were disadvantaged by the fact we got relegated, as late as possible and lost most of our squad. As is normal. That was then compounded by the embargo.
The point I am making is are players aren't "shit", to the extent some people are making out. Its not a team of has beens or never were. As the case has been over previous non successful league 1 seasons of the recent past.
Almost all our players are in the 25-32 range where they should be at their peek. All of them have played at a higher level, bar Levitt and its unfair to include him.
With the exception of Maatsen, Doughty, Watson and Gunter they have all been promoted or got transfers to Championship clubs from there league 1 (2 in Bogle's case) performances. And Gunter and Watson had played over 1000 games between them before they dropped down to this level.
It's not the last minute bargain basement rag tag and bobtail motley crew so make out.
Not trying to argue with anyone, just dont think its as black and white
No one had a proper pre-season but I do wonder how many squads were largely complete by the time the season had largely started, us on the other hand just had one senior CB and one senior LB
Friendlies were played etc. as well so whilst it wasnt a full pre-season to work on fitness, the opportunity to work on tactics / shape was there
Even Charlton played three friendlies before starting League One (seven last year), we just didnt have the team that we do now to work on things
Yet those around us in the League either played four / five games with a squad that was largely complete... Peterborough on the other hand played eight games
Like most people on here I'm not calling for heads to roll in anyway. However LB basically has had a free hit so far in terms of results in that everyone knew the situation. He has used alot of those free hits up by his negativity both on and off the pitch. His team selections have been woeful and nobody I'm sure can defend them in anyway. I personally would swap the last few performances for 4-2 defeats all day long if we were actually trying to be proactive in anyway. The injury to Watson and Pratleys red card may well be a blessing IF it forces his hand to change the mentality but we shall see. I think Lee has had this hang up for a long time but he got away with it due to all the off field antics. The amount of points he gave away from winning positions last year were plain stupid and he has shown this year his preferred style is to try and get a lead and then shut up shop. All the rubbish about playing people on the wrong side of the pitch in order to try and stop a certain player ! How about playing players where they can play and letting the opposition worry about us ? Ridiculous over thinking for this league imo. And before the " nobody should ever say anything against Lee " brigade start moaning this is meant as a constructive viewpoint as it all seems so clear as day to everyone but not LB
Of course we are not going down. I don't fear that, but I do fear not going up. Some people defending Bowyer are assessing the squad as being weaker than I believe it is. As another poster pointed out, we find ourselves, due to injuries, where defence is a weakness where it was recently a strength. What you have to do when that is the case is compensate elsewhere.
Ive doubted whether we'd go up from the very beginning... Too much disruption off the field, a squad put together late (would be curious to know how many players we signed compared to others after our takeover got completed), not to mention one hindered by the Salary Cap which meant we've had to rely on signings like Bogle etc.
So whilst we may differ on the manager, I am more optimistic than you are about the squad.
I don't get why people are so pesomistic about the quality of the squad.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
No pre-season to work on shape and tactics?
People will bemoan friendly results when we lose but its an opportunity for a Manager to figure out what works and doesnt
For large parts of the season its been from one game to the next with rest and recovery the focus rather than working on actual tactics
Ironically though our bad run of form has combined with the fact that we've had a few less midweek games
Of course as we know from recent interviews that Bowyer has apparently been trying to work on the attacking side of the team
But its not like he's got a pre-season friendly to play with where he can put out a squad that doesnt have to worry about the result if it goes wrong... I know we're entering a period of fixture congestion again but if a game gets cancelled due to COVID again, perhaps it would be a good idea to find another team that have had their game called off for similar reasons (yet who arent having to self-isolate) where we can have a behind closed doors game against someone to try a new approach with whatever Bowyer's ideal attacking team is.
But that's not an argument about what I am saying. No one had a proper preseason.
Yes we were disadvantaged by the fact we got relegated, as late as possible and lost most of our squad. As is normal. That was then compounded by the embargo.
The point I am making is are players aren't "shit", to the extent some people are making out. Its not a team of has beens or never were. As the case has been over previous non successful league 1 seasons of the recent past.
Almost all our players are in the 25-32 range where they should be at their peek. All of them have played at a higher level, bar Levitt and its unfair to include him.
With the exception of Maatsen, Doughty, Watson and Gunter they have all been promoted or got transfers to Championship clubs from there league 1 (2 in Bogle's case) performances. And Gunter and Watson had played over 1000 games between them before they dropped down to this level.
It's not the last minute bargain basement rag tag and bobtail motley crew so make out.
Not trying to argue with anyone, just dont think its as black and white
No one had a proper pre-season but I do wonder how many squads were largely complete by the time the season had largely started, us on the other hand just had one senior CB and one senior LB
Friendlies were played etc. as well so whilst it wasnt a full pre-season to work on fitness, the opportunity to work on tactics / shape was there
Even Charlton played three friendlies before starting League One (seven last year), we just didnt have the team that we do now to work on things
Some fair points, but look at the team we put out against Sunderland at either end of the 18/19 season. I think only 4 players started both.
How much time did we have to work on things then? Preseason friendlies didn't make much difference to that did it?
The run of six games papered over a lot of cracks. We didn't play well in most of them. Then came the international break, when Bowyer said they worked on shape etc and since then we have got worse. Significantly worse.
We are nearly 20 games into a season and none of us have a clue what Bowyer thinks is his best side or what his preference of formation is.
We were missing 5 players yesterday through injury or suspension. Hull were missing 6 through Covid alone.
But its a ready made excuse for Friday that that will increase to 7.
Given the history that we all know - the fact that the squad was assembled at the last minute on a shoestring, the lack of a pre-season, the ownership shenanigans and whatever the hell we do in training that injures people. All of that I can handle. I can understand that this squad of deadbeats, crocks and cheapos might not be good enough to get promotion, albeit from a league that a bunch of us 50 something crocks could have a decent go at not finishing last in if we put a team together. I can handle just not being good enough under the circs.
What I’m struggling to handle is the fact that I’ve no idea how good or bad this team could be. The constant tinker man selections, square pegs in round holes, the untouchable four, the defensive set up. All of those are killing whatever chance this motley crew could have. Just pick something akin to the following:
I don’t care if that’s the actual 11. I just want 11 players from this ample squad (ample in terms of numbers if not quality) in their correct positions week in week out injury permitting with instructions to go out there and try to score. If we’re no good then fine, I refer to the opening couple of paragraphs. We’d all deal with just being shite. We’ve got used to it over the last decade. But FFS give ourselves a chance. This is self neutering of almost suicidal proportions. Lee worked wonders with backs against the wall but, I’ll wager with a squad that is light years ahead of this one in terms of quality. But at least give this lot a fighting chance.
Something has definitely gone wrong in recent weeks. When you sign players late, with many of them not match fit, you expect it to take time for the team to gel, but for things to improve as the team gets to know each other and players settle into their roles. Instead we've gone backwards the longer Bowyer has had with them, with no consistencies in the formation and tactics. You get the impression of a manager who doesn't know his best team or his best formation and is struggling to manage his flair players at the moment.
Yesterday Hull had 16 shots, 7 on target. We had 4 shots, 2 on target, and only looked dangerous from corners.
Maddison and Bogle have been with for 3 months now, Matthews for over 2 months, the lack of pre-season surely can't be used as an excuse now?
my god that was a hard watch. Game was over when we went behind tbh. Or possibly over before we kicked a ball, with another bizarre team selection. As someone else said on p1, that’s the kind of performance that gets managers the sack. Felt like bowyer was trying to prove a point by sticking with Matthews at LB. well, that fucked up again! We had two left backs in the squad ffs, one who has been a minor revelation this season too! But he was on the right wing...you couldn’t make this up. Pratley again at centre half while Deji sits it out on the bench? The slowest centre half pairing since dailly and docherty lol. Crap. Pratleys sending off was a joke. What was he doing? And laughing about it afterwards didn’t impress me tbh. And poor old bogle. That was one of the shittest centre forward displays I’ve ever witnessed. Was prepared to give him a chance, but he is just so far out of his depth it’s embarrassing. Someone put him out of his misery for God’s sake. Makes the decision to flog bonne a mystery. Especially as we were promised proper replacements by Gallen and Bowyer. We desperately need reinforcements, and bowyer needs to Go back to basics, pick a settled side and decide on an actual tactic. Getting Maddison on the pitch would be a start if we’re serious abt trying to get promoted this season
I'm thinking of the team Bowyer inherited when he kept going on about definitely making the play offs and getting promoted. Remember, Robinson's side. Was it all that better than the side we have now? The biggest difference for me is Bowyer himself. The positive, front foot Bowyer of then who built the players up to the back foot negative Bowyer now who digs them out all the time.
I mentioned in an earlier post that if i was Sandgaard i'd potentially be looking at how the 6 games go between now and January. 4 of those are at home. Only 2 of the 6 games are against sides in the top half.
So here's a question. If (for arguments sake) we won just 1 of those 6, picked up a couple of draws and lost 3, taking 5 points which would then be 15 points from 15 games, where would people sit with sacking him?
For me personally i don't want him sacked now, but if things haven't improved by the end of January, i'd say he'd have to go.
Comments
So we’re not going down anytime soon .
Throw in the fact we have a new owner that has to get to know how football is run and we have the perfect storm.
He has put his faith with Bowyer and his staff and put a few new faces in to help run the club from week to week.
We never were going to become The best club in league One overnight but this season is one of adjusting for the 2021-2022 season and trying to get through this season the best we can.
Look at the last ten games we have to play this season 8 of the clubs will be up towards the top of this division all is still to play for.
Sandgaard knows this as does Bowyer and it points only in one direction it is a learning curve that we all have to work with one another and do the best we can with limited resources.
What we end up with this season be grateful about ,unless you have forgoten about the last 7years.
England stuck loyally with Hodgson and we did crap in three major championships. Where did the loyalty help there?
Curbs was far too loyal to the likes of Keith Jones and Shaun Newton when it was clear early on they were never up to it. I guess he felt he owed them. He never made that mistake again.
Amos, Gunter, Oshilaja, Pearce, Maatsen, Morgan, Gilbey, Maddison, Williams, Smyth, Aneke.
If we're being honest, it was his negative tactics that got us relegated last season. He gets a pass on that because the squad was pish for the champ, and the shenanigans behind the scenes must have been horrendous to work under.
People cite injuries as our issue (again), but the majority of our players are getting injured in Bowyer led training sessions. Put that with his sometimes woeful man management skills (Williams, Bogle, Albie, MM etc), and you see there's more to criticise than just the tactics and results on the pitch.
Give him a full window, one where we're not bargain bucket rummaging for players like Bogle, and let's see where we are in the summer. This league is shit, and the fact we're still 6th after this run proves that.
Yes there's too many fans calling for his head, but equally there's too many not willing to accept any criticism of him and his coaching team.
In terms of course and distance and pedigree is better than Powell's sqaud and our last promotion winning one.
Obviously it's not perfect, far from it, but this isn't the squad of Abbotts, Bensons, Crofts, Foleys and Seabourns that some seem to think.
I will say this much, TS comes in and removes Bowyer immediately I would have been fuming, now if I was to wake up to the news of Bowyer gone, being blunt I don't really care. We need a shake up, whether that's Bowyer actually playing players where they are meant to play or another manager doing it I don't care. We are absolutely awful to watch.
I'll explain myself a bit cause I don't want to come across 'knee jerk' or showing lack of loyalty towards LB. First of all I'm getting the feeling of tigres don't change their stripe with Bowyer. I think he's a bit of a bully and there's a major hierarchy in the changing room, and not the healthy experienced to non experienced player kind. Food for thought, had it been Morgan or Williams or any other player who Bowyer could pick a fight with, how do you think he would have reacted if it was them who got that sending off and not Pratley?
It's getting to a point where I am just starting to dislike Bowyer. Under Roland he was exactly what we needed, straight talking manager who got gritty results with a bad hand, I think the situation suited him to a T. Now there's an air of positivity around the club and we have an engaging owner I don't think he likes it. He clearly can't accept criticism and is 100% either a liar or delusional, there's no in-between, his post match analysis prove this. Prepared to take pelters for this and I am no way suggesting we get him but Karl Robinson is the type of manager who thrives off of our situation, bit of a whacky owner, upbeat, likes to be involved with the team, Karl and Thomas would get on like a house on fire.
Simply put, I don't think TS and LB is a long term good fit. TS is ambitious and energetic, Bowyer plays 15 defenders and is dull.
The more I type the more it feels thanks for the memories but...
I don't think Bowyer is the man to take us to the next level under our circumstances. When he was left alone under Roland I think it suited him, I don't think this situation does and I want to see Charlton do well, I'm not a Lee Bowyer supporter
Tldr;
I think we are woeful
I think LB is delusional
& I really hate how crap we are to watch
People will bemoan friendly results when we lose but its an opportunity for a Manager to figure out what works and doesnt
For large parts of the season its been from one game to the next with rest and recovery the focus rather than working on actual tactics
Ironically though our bad run of form has combined with the fact that we've had a few less midweek games
Of course as we know from recent interviews that Bowyer has apparently been trying to work on the attacking side of the team
But its not like he's got a pre-season friendly to play with where he can put out a squad that doesnt have to worry about the result if it goes wrong... I know we're entering a period of fixture congestion again but if a game gets cancelled due to COVID again, perhaps it would be a good idea to find another team that have had their game called off for similar reasons (yet who arent having to self-isolate) where we can have a behind closed doors game against someone to try a new approach with whatever Bowyer's ideal attacking team is.
Yes we were disadvantaged by the fact we got relegated, as late as possible and lost most of our squad. As is normal. That was then compounded by the embargo.
The point I am making is are players aren't "shit", to the extent some people are making out. Its not a team of has beens or never were. As the case has been over previous non successful league 1 seasons of the recent past.
Almost all our players are in the 25-32 range where they should be at their peek. All of them have played at a higher level, bar Levitt and its unfair to include him.
With the exception of Maatsen, Doughty, Watson and Gunter they have all been promoted or got transfers to Championship clubs from there league 1 (2 in Bogle's case) performances. And Gunter and Watson had played over 1000 games between them before they dropped down to this level.
It's not the last minute bargain basement rag tag and bobtail motley crew some make out.
No one had a proper pre-season but I do wonder how many squads were largely complete by the time the season had largely started, us on the other hand just had one senior CB and one senior LB
Friendlies were played etc. as well so whilst it wasnt a full pre-season to work on fitness, the opportunity to work on tactics / shape was there
Even Charlton played three friendlies before starting League One (seven last year), we just didnt have the team that we do now to work on things
Yet those around us in the League either played four / five games with a squad that was largely complete... Peterborough on the other hand played eight games
How much time did we have to work on things then? Preseason friendlies didn't make much difference to that did it?
The run of six games papered over a lot of cracks. We didn't play well in most of them. Then came the international break, when Bowyer said they worked on shape etc and since then we have got worse. Significantly worse.
We are nearly 20 games into a season and none of us have a clue what Bowyer thinks is his best side or what his preference of formation is.
We were missing 5 players yesterday through injury or suspension. Hull were missing 6 through Covid alone.
But its a ready made excuse for Friday that that will increase to 7.
Yesterday Hull had 16 shots, 7 on target. We had 4 shots, 2 on target, and only looked dangerous from corners.
Maddison and Bogle have been with for 3 months now, Matthews for over 2 months, the lack of pre-season surely can't be used as an excuse now?
So here's a question. If (for arguments sake) we won just 1 of those 6, picked up a couple of draws and lost 3, taking 5 points which would then be 15 points from 15 games, where would people sit with sacking him?
For me personally i don't want him sacked now, but if things haven't improved by the end of January, i'd say he'd have to go.
The missing player at the bottom is Zyro.