To quote CM Punk, "Why do you keep doing this internet stuff?"
Fantastic weekend thanks! Crowd were exactly what I hoped for, weather was great and thought it was actually the best show they’ve put on this year bar Mania - only gutting part was that we flew from Stansted, but friends we were going to the show with went from Heathrow and were on same flight as Punk!
There’s an interesting debate to be had about this, and as usual people’s positions on it seem to come down to whether they want to support AEW or want to just moan about it (but still watch it, weirdly).
I want violence in wrestling. It doesn’t have to be every match or every week, but I do think there is a place for those moments that make you feel uncomfortable. Storytelling has to take you to different places sometimes that push the boundaries.
The whole “they’re encouraging murder” thing is just a bit silly and dramatic. If we’re going to apply that logic, then basically any match has involved weapons, ever, is in the same category. Strange how Undertaker throwing Mankind off the cell is seemingly glorified though?
The one spot at All Out that did make me cringe was the chair shot to end the Swerve/Hangman lights out match. We know the science behind the damage that can cause and it’s hard to perform that in a protective way at all. Though some will argue that if it’s done once in a blue moon then so be it.
Personally I find the whole over the top morality thing from some wrestling fans to be quite odd in 2024.
That is mental gymnastics. Whether you want to support AEW, what does that even mean?! I'll say most posters on here watched it and now don't.
Whatever they do there's always a section that will defend it, e.g. comparisons with Nitro aren't appropriate because wrestling was so hot in 1995! We're getting to a stage where those fans will be the only ones still watching it. I like how we can criticise WWE, for instance jobbing Giovanni Vinci in seconds on his return and Rock V Roman, without people taking it personally.
That is mental gymnastics. Whether you want to support AEW, what does that even mean?! I'll say most posters on here watched it and now don't.
Whatever they do there's always a section that will defend it, e.g. comparisons with Nitro aren't appropriate because wrestling was so hot in 1995! We're getting to a stage where those fans will be the only ones still watching it. I like how we can criticise WWE, for instance jobbing Giovanni Vinci in seconds on his return and Rock V Roman, without people taking it personally.
I think it was quite clear from my original post, but if you need it spelling out to you:
There is a trend where a lot of people will instantly criticise something AEW related but will hesitate to offer praise when they do something well.
I even gave you an example of the double standards whereby spots like Undertaker/Mankind are willingly glorified. But imagine that had happened in AEW?
I even recall when AEW was in its first year and Cody took the chair shot to the back of the head. It was seen as controversial, but nowhere near as lambasted as it seemingly is now.
I think falling 15ft onto a table with padding underneath it is safer than an unprotected chairshot to the head. In fact the table spot wasn't even the worst spot in that match!
The part I have issue with is the perceived drugging beforehand.
The plastic bag spot is worse because that's quite literally depicting attempted murder, and that breaks down any and all of the kayfabe world wrestling works in for me.
There's shocking, then there's just stuff that shouldn't happen in the world of wrestling
I'm not really a huge of death match style wrestling but after the year build the Hangman Swerve earned it. The angle at the end of the Bryan was great, intriguing and made me question where a lot of things are going. The Claudio/Bryan conflict had been quietly brewing for ages and the look on Bryan's face when Claudio clocked him was fantastic.
Of the whole 8 matches there were only two I wasn't particularly high on and even those weren't bad.
I've really enjoyed the last two ppvs I've watched in Bash in Berlin, for me probably both promotions best shows of the year.
Really enjoying both promotions output currently, which is also fucking annoying because there's barely enough hours in a week to watch it all, let alone to do that, work, and look after my daughter!
I think falling 15ft onto a table with padding underneath it is safer than an unprotected chairshot to the head. In fact the table spot wasn't even the worst spot in that match!
The part I have issue with is the perceived drugging beforehand.
The plastic bag spot is worse because that's quite literally depicting attempted murder, and that breaks down any and all of the kayfabe world wrestling works in for me.
There's shocking, then there's just stuff that shouldn't happen in the world of wrestling
There’s always going to be a matter of preference, but I don’t understand the concerns about it being immoral just because it’s in wrestling.
The week before the match, Hangman burned down Swerve’s childhood home. Is that ‘too much’ as well?
Lost count the amount of times someone has been slammed through car windows, run over, pushed off top of ladders. All sorts of things that would be ‘attempted murder’ in real life.
Movies, video games, TV series etc will all portray extremes as their way of telling stories - why does pro wrestling always have to be watered down? It might not be to everyone’s taste, but then there’s the choice to watch another promotion.
Just seems a bit old fashioned that wrestling has to have some sort of unwritten set of rules about what is right and wrong. The only part I struggle with are the cases where something is too dangerous to be performed safely - but even then, who are we to be telling the professionals how to do their job?
But throwing someone off a ladder exists and works in the wrestling universe as it's linked to a type of match, it's very different to the plastic bag spot as that's not something that exists within the wrestling world.
Same as bringing a needle into a match and drugging the opponent. If that's ok, then why isn't that used frequently instead of brass knuckles when a referee turns his back? It's because it's not something that sits within the wrestling world, and I don't think it's something that should be added to "move with the times".
Well there would have been a time where throwing someone off a ladder into a stack of tables would have been seen as absolutely ridiculous.
I expect when the first ‘modern’ style ladder / TLC matches came into play there were older fans or ex-pros complaining about how it kills the business etc. It has seemingly always been that way.
I’m not suggesting the needle spot is something that needs to be done again and again by the way. It’s been reserved for an ultimate blood feud in a lights out match.
There’s an interesting debate to be had about this, and as usual people’s positions on it seem to come down to whether they want to support AEW or want to just moan about it (but still watch it, weirdly).
I want violence in wrestling. It doesn’t have to be every match or every week, but I do think there is a place for those moments that make you feel uncomfortable. Storytelling has to take you to different places sometimes that push the boundaries.
The whole “they’re encouraging murder” thing is just a bit silly and dramatic. If we’re going to apply that logic, then basically any match has involved weapons, ever, is in the same category. Strange how Undertaker throwing Mankind off the cell is seemingly glorified though?
The one spot at All Out that did make me cringe was the chair shot to end the Swerve/Hangman lights out match. We know the science behind the damage that can cause and it’s hard to perform that in a protective way at all. Though some will argue that if it’s done once in a blue moon then so be it.
Personally I find the whole over the top morality thing from some wrestling fans to be quite odd in 2024.
Mental gymnastics etc etc etc.
I agree largely with the rest of your post, but I think this is a little unfair. I can only speak for my own group of wrestling fans, but I think we all genuinely wanted AEW to succeed & be a genuine alternative to WWE when it started.
Interest in the product has dwindled significantly within my group & the wrestling world in general as the product isn't very palatable & largely (in my opinion), lacks creative direction. These latest stunts went too far in my opinion.
I'm sure it was an effort to get more people talking about the product, but I saw it as desperate & wouldn't be surprised if it turns even more people away from it!!
People have their limits, Pilman 9mm and King Of The Ring '98 went too far and WWE admits it.
Injecting your opponent with drugs and putting a bag over your opponent's head will only entertaining a very limited number. If you're doing that why not just bring a gun and shoot them? That's what we're pretty close to with those last two. Actually, Darby did fire Jack Perry with a Frame thrower already.
Where do they go from here, push it even further, or dial it back? These two hate each other but they're not attempting to murder each other like those others.
People have their limits, Pilman 9mm and King Of The Ring '98 went too far and WWE admits it.
Injecting your opponent with drugs and putting a bag over your opponent's head will only entertaining a very limited number. If you're doing that why not just bring a gun and shoot them? That's what we're pretty close to with those last two. Actually, Darby did fire Jack Perry with a Frame thrower already.
Where do they go from here, push it even further, or dial it back? These two hate each other but they're not attempting to murder each other like those others.
I think it’s a stretch to suggest that future matches/angles are diminished all because they went so far on this occasion. Many informed wrestling fans will have seen exploding barbed wire rope death matches before, but that doesn’t mean nothing else can work in getting a reaction.
I like the concept of a Lights Out match. The sort of match that you get maybe once a year and is the only solution to end a blood feud. Whether you agree or not about the morality of it, what happened on Saturday is what keeps that stipulation feared and prestigious. Though admittedly AEW don’t always help themselves by having hardcore matches on TV every other week.
Going back to the Undertaker/Mankind reference earlier. That match alone and the absurdness of what happened has helped to make the Hell In A Cell stipulation a ton of money for the last 25 years, even though only a handful have ever come close to delivering the sort of spots that made it famous.
They've stopped doing the Hell in a Cell PPV. I couldn't even tell you what the last one was. They (thankfully) couldn't top Mankind v Undertaker and it ended up just being another cage match, another gimmick that was special then overused. I personally would be very happy to never see another multiman ladder match.
Gimmick matches have their time and place, however, the main event of the biggest company's biggest show of the year is always a one on one singles match. The issue with AEW is they go too far in a lot of people's opinion. It's not once in a blue moon either.
Well I think we all know what the next Hell In A Cell match is going to be, and it is absolutely worthy of the stipulation.
Getting rid of the PPV was the right move. Just bring out the Cell in scenarios when it is necessary rather than having to shoehorn angles into it once a year. Another good move by HHH.
Yeah I think he's more on about how they've blurred the lines between Vince McMahon the man behind the huge wrestling machine that is WWF/E and Mr McMahon the evil authority figure on TV getting wrestlers to kiss his ass.
There's a lot out there about the scandal and allegations, that absolutely makes him a vile and horrific person, and I hope he gets his comeuppance for those terrible things, but there's no denying the fact there's also hundreds, if not thousands, of people that have worked with him and for him over the years that will say Vince the man is a very kind, hard working person who looks out for people and has created opportunities for them and changed their lives for the better.
Yeah I think he's more on about how they've blurred the lines between Vince McMahon the man behind the huge wrestling machine that is WWF/E and Mr McMahon the evil authority figure on TV getting wrestlers to kiss his ass.
There's a lot out there about the scandal and allegations, that absolutely makes him a vile and horrific person, and I hope he gets his comeuppance for those terrible things, but there's no denying the fact there's also hundreds, if not thousands, of people that have worked with him and for him over the years that will say Vince the man is a very kind, hard working person who looks out for people and has created opportunities for them and changed their lives for the better.
I'm not sure you're going to find too many people who will say that. There are lots who will admire what he achieved with WWE but the overwhelming impression I have of his regime was that he was overbearing, tyrannical even, temperamental, chaotic, aggressive, misogynistic and just plain nasty. And that's not the Mr McMahon character, that was Vincent K McMahon the person. I'd recommend looking at the John Oliver piece from a few years back for numerous examples of Vince/WWE very much not looking out for people,
Hmm I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, obviously there's the vocal minority that will scream and shout from the rooftops about him, but the people he's provided long term jobs and security for? Some of the production crew have been with WWE for decades.
Hmm I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, obviously there's the vocal minority that will scream and shout from the rooftops about him, but the people he's provided long term jobs and security for? Some of the production crew have been with WWE for decades.
It needn't be either/or, its quite possible that for most of the time, to most of the people he was magnanimous and certainly he did work hard, he had an absolute focus on success for his product/company.
On the other hand he was likely equally obsessive in other things and having the kind of power he did is a very dangerous thing.
The way he ran things wasn't a million miles from how personality cults work and that's not a flattering comparison.
The official trailer for the documentary indicates that they will be addressing the recent accusations. The journalists involved in reporting the story are interviewed.
Yeah I think he's more on about how they've blurred the lines between Vince McMahon the man behind the huge wrestling machine that is WWF/E and Mr McMahon the evil authority figure on TV getting wrestlers to kiss his ass.
There's a lot out there about the scandal and allegations, that absolutely makes him a vile and horrific person, and I hope he gets his comeuppance for those terrible things, but there's no denying the fact there's also hundreds, if not thousands, of people that have worked with him and for him over the years that will say Vince the man is a very kind, hard working person who looks out for people and has created opportunities for them and changed their lives for the better.
This is going to age terribly. Just so you know.
I'm sure there were millions that loved Saville as well, doesn't make him anything less than evil.
This lawsuit stuff isn't the first controversy Vince has been a part of, and it likely won't be the last when everything is out in the open. Just look at what he did for Snuka, or the steroid trials.
One issue though is that Netflix (who just purchased rights to WWE) will not cover the people that aided and abetted Vince in the WWE who are still sitting in prominent positions within the company.
The doc is a hit job designed to save WWE by killing Vince solo. The truth is a lot muddier.
Vince on screen is great entertainment but you just know he's exactly like that behind the scenes as well. The lawsuit against him which includes Lesnar is really grim
But that's the thing I'm not trying to defend him in any way, I'm merely stating that there will be a great number of people out there influenced positively by the way VKM's drive for success has got them swept up in the wave to that success, and their lives will be better off because of him.
But yeah obviously he's an absolute scumbag and deserves to rot in jail when it's all said and done
Reading that Vince tweet was the first time I had any interest in watching documentary. Looking at the "cast" of wrestlers interviewed etc. had me rolling my eyes, and the TV deal they have with WWE means the chances of having all that much integrity is slim to none (I doubt they'll even mention that WWE is implicated in the lawsuit).
Not particularly keen on again hearing about the nasty stuff that's gone previously. The only draw for me would be finding the entertainment in watching liars and lunatics taking shit... and to be honest I've had my fill of that over the years.
Started watching it late last night but only got about 20 minutes in before I had to go to bed. Was going over the early years and had just got to Hogan's first appearance. Nothing really controversial thus far, but it does say the majority of the interviews were conducted before the Janel Grant allegations were made public.
Comments
Fucking stupid. Desperate for attention
The whole “they’re encouraging murder” thing is just a bit silly and dramatic. If we’re going to apply that logic, then basically any match has involved weapons, ever, is in the same category. Strange how Undertaker throwing Mankind off the cell is seemingly glorified though?
Whatever they do there's always a section that will defend it, e.g. comparisons with Nitro aren't appropriate because wrestling was so hot in 1995! We're getting to a stage where those fans will be the only ones still watching it. I like how we can criticise WWE, for instance jobbing Giovanni Vinci in seconds on his return and Rock V Roman, without people taking it personally.
There is a trend where a lot of people will instantly criticise something AEW related but will hesitate to offer praise when they do something well.
The part I have issue with is the perceived drugging beforehand.
The plastic bag spot is worse because that's quite literally depicting attempted murder, and that breaks down any and all of the kayfabe world wrestling works in for me.
There's shocking, then there's just stuff that shouldn't happen in the world of wrestling
Of the whole 8 matches there were only two I wasn't particularly high on and even those weren't bad.
I've really enjoyed the last two ppvs I've watched in Bash in Berlin, for me probably both promotions best shows of the year.
Really enjoying both promotions output currently, which is also fucking annoying because there's barely enough hours in a week to watch it all, let alone to do that, work, and look after my daughter!
Same as bringing a needle into a match and drugging the opponent. If that's ok, then why isn't that used frequently instead of brass knuckles when a referee turns his back? It's because it's not something that sits within the wrestling world, and I don't think it's something that should be added to "move with the times".
Interest in the product has dwindled significantly within my group & the wrestling world in general as the product isn't very palatable & largely (in my opinion), lacks creative direction. These latest stunts went too far in my opinion.
I'm sure it was an effort to get more people talking about the product, but I saw it as desperate & wouldn't be surprised if it turns even more people away from it!!
Just my view of course
Injecting your opponent with drugs and putting a bag over your opponent's head will only entertaining a very limited number. If you're doing that why not just bring a gun and shoot them? That's what we're pretty close to with those last two. Actually, Darby did fire Jack Perry with a Frame thrower already.
Where do they go from here, push it even further, or dial it back? These two hate each other but they're not attempting to murder each other like those others.
I like the concept of a Lights Out match. The sort of match that you get maybe once a year and is the only solution to end a blood feud. Whether you agree or not about the morality of it, what happened on Saturday is what keeps that stipulation feared and prestigious. Though admittedly AEW don’t always help themselves by having hardcore matches on TV every other week.
Gimmick matches have their time and place, however, the main event of the biggest company's biggest show of the year is always a one on one singles match. The issue with AEW is they go too far in a lot of people's opinion. It's not once in a blue moon either.
Now this is how to get heat.
https://youtube.com/shorts/vWXhLVCHnsk?si=0K8ZD4x7SnBP_2b2
Getting rid of the PPV was the right move. Just bring out the Cell in scenarios when it is necessary rather than having to shoehorn angles into it once a year. Another good move by HHH.
https://x.com/VinceMcMahon/status/1838320734579441946?t=D6c4CaruuRV0rU2SgVjHcg&s=19
There's a lot out there about the scandal and allegations, that absolutely makes him a vile and horrific person, and I hope he gets his comeuppance for those terrible things, but there's no denying the fact there's also hundreds, if not thousands, of people that have worked with him and for him over the years that will say Vince the man is a very kind, hard working person who looks out for people and has created opportunities for them and changed their lives for the better.
On the other hand he was likely equally obsessive in other things and having the kind of power he did is a very dangerous thing.
The way he ran things wasn't a million miles from how personality cults work and that's not a flattering comparison.
I'm sure there were millions that loved Saville as well, doesn't make him anything less than evil.
This lawsuit stuff isn't the first controversy Vince has been a part of, and it likely won't be the last when everything is out in the open. Just look at what he did for Snuka, or the steroid trials.
The doc is a hit job designed to save WWE by killing Vince solo. The truth is a lot muddier.
I acknowledge what he's done for the business, but likewise Benoit was my favourite wrestler, then that suddenly changed.
But yeah obviously he's an absolute scumbag and deserves to rot in jail when it's all said and done
Not particularly keen on again hearing about the nasty stuff that's gone previously. The only draw for me would be finding the entertainment in watching liars and lunatics taking shit... and to be honest I've had my fill of that over the years.