There's still time for Kirk. He came in during a period where nothing worked and everyone was terrible. Everyone. The players who are now the form players in the league looked like they'd never seen feet before under Adkins and Kirk was dropped into that. The problem Kirk has is he hasn't been given a chance under Jackson to be part of that huge uplift. I'm not saying that's wrong, you can hardly fault Jackson for what he's done so far, but he's missed the big wave of collective improvement and he's got to work to get into his stride. He also has to completely reinvent his way of playing. Some players have done that quickly and brilliantly - DJ, Leko and Clare haven't once looked out of place - but Kirk isn't a player who gets by on his athleticism and workrate so it will be harder for him to adapt. He's an inverted winger in a team that doesn't play with wingers who is being juggled beween a central midfield or a wing back role. There's lots for him to change about his way of playing and it will take time. As great as DJ and Clare have been the changes have suited thier style of playing as it already was well enough; Clare is a dynamic, athletic player who can play a bit and DJ's game has always been that he can get up and down the line, win a surprising amount of headers and put a few challenges in. The good thing is Kirk is young and we've got him on a 4 year contract. As things are he doesn't need to suddenly become a world beater overnight, he can adapt and grow with us until he hits a point where he's seriously pushing to knock someone off thier first team perch. There's a real tendency with players now to write them off if they don't perform straight away and want them shipped out, but if we've seen anything this season it's with time and careful handling players can look completely different very quickly. There were plenty saying that Dobson and Clare were evidence of a terrible transfer policy and wanting Ged Roddy strung up, but I bet most who claimed that would now be saying they wish we'd got them on longer than 2 year contracts. There's a thread saying MacGillivray is a relegation keeper. Charlie Kirk has played 12 league minutes under Jackson, and 90 in the FA Cup (where he got an assist) in two completely different positions. He's not had a chance, and if he works hard and adapts his game then there's no reason he can't become a good player for us. I certainly wouldn't want to write him off 4 months in to a 4 year deal.
The problem is that he was signed for a very specific role, and we play a different style of football now. A right footer who likes playing as an inverted winger on the left of a front 3 doesn't really fit in on either side as a wingback.
He's too right footed to play as the left wingback, as we need a left footer there to provide the width. While on the right, getting to the byline and crossing isn't his strength either. PLUS in the Jacko system, the right wingback has to be really mobile and bomb up and down the pitch, which isn't really his style either. And we already have Leko, DJ and CBT who can play there anyway
So unless Jacko changes formation, that leaves the Lee attacking midfield position, where he may be able to cover.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
You have hit on the miserable thing.
From what I have heard this is correct and that he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group. It doesn't sound his fault, but I can't be sure of that.
I hope that JJ can get on top of this as it's no good for the lad's mental health or for the squad if we can't get the best out of him.
But he came running down the touchline to celebrate with the team when we scored our second against Ipswich...
Clayden or Kirk, I suppose that's the question, which has more promise? Kirk has done a decent job at this level. Clayden has struggled to have any impact so far.
One is 20/21 the other 23/24
Will be interesting to see if either can become the kind of Alfie Doughty type we need at LWB.
The answer may well be 'neither' based on what I've seen
There's still time for Kirk. He came in during a period where nothing worked and everyone was terrible. Everyone. The players who are now the form players in the league looked like they'd never seen feet before under Adkins and Kirk was dropped into that. The problem Kirk has is he hasn't been given a chance under Jackson to be part of that huge uplift. I'm not saying that's wrong, you can hardly fault Jackson for what he's done so far, but he's missed the big wave of collective improvement and he's got to work to get into his stride. He also has to completely reinvent his way of playing. Some players have done that quickly and brilliantly - DJ, Leko and Clare haven't once looked out of place - but Kirk isn't a player who gets by on his athleticism and workrate so it will be harder for him to adapt. He's an inverted winger in a team that doesn't play with wingers who is being juggled beween a central midfield or a wing back role. There's lots for him to change about his way of playing and it will take time. As great as DJ and Clare have been the changes have suited thier style of playing as it already was well enough; Clare is a dynamic, athletic player who can play a bit and DJ's game has always been that he can get up and down the line, win a surprising amount of headers and put a few challenges in. The good thing is Kirk is young and we've got him on a 4 year contract. As things are he doesn't need to suddenly become a world beater overnight, he can adapt and grow with us until he hits a point where he's seriously pushing to knock someone off thier first team perch. There's a real tendency with players now to write them off if they don't perform straight away and want them shipped out, but if we've seen anything this season it's with time and careful handling players can look completely different very quickly. There were plenty saying that Dobson and Clare were evidence of a terrible transfer policy and wanting Ged Roddy strung up, but I bet most who claimed that would now be saying they wish we'd got them on longer than 2 year contracts. There's a thread saying MacGillivray is a relegation keeper. Charlie Kirk has played 12 league minutes under Jackson, and 90 in the FA Cup (where he got an assist) in two completely different positions. He's not had a chance, and if he works hard and adapts his game then there's no reason he can't become a good player for us. I certainly wouldn't want to write him off 4 months in to a 4 year deal.
The problem is that he was signed for a very specific role, and we play a different style of football now. A right footer who likes playing as an inverted winger on the left of a front 3 doesn't really fit in on either side as a wingback.
He's too right footed to play as the left wingback, as we need a left footer there to provide the width. While on the right, getting to the byline and crossing isn't his strength either. PLUS in the Jacko system, the right wingback has to be really mobile and bomb up and down the pitch, which isn't really his style either. And we already have Leko, DJ and CBT who can play there anyway
So unless Jacko changes formation, that leaves the Lee attacking midfield position, where he may be able to cover.
Kirk in the Lee position at Lincoln was genuinely startling in how completely it failed. They have completely different playing styles. It is very hard to see it working out for Kirk in such a role
Clayden or Kirk, I suppose that's the question, which has more promise? Kirk has done a decent job at this level. Clayden has struggled to have any impact so far.
One is 20/21 the other 23/24
Will be interesting to see if either can become the kind of Alfie Doughty type we need at LWB.
The answer may well be 'neither' based on what I've seen
It may be, but Clayden has always looked decent for the U's sides.
There's still time for Kirk. He came in during a period where nothing worked and everyone was terrible. Everyone. The players who are now the form players in the league looked like they'd never seen feet before under Adkins and Kirk was dropped into that. The problem Kirk has is he hasn't been given a chance under Jackson to be part of that huge uplift. I'm not saying that's wrong, you can hardly fault Jackson for what he's done so far, but he's missed the big wave of collective improvement and he's got to work to get into his stride. He also has to completely reinvent his way of playing. Some players have done that quickly and brilliantly - DJ, Leko and Clare haven't once looked out of place - but Kirk isn't a player who gets by on his athleticism and workrate so it will be harder for him to adapt. He's an inverted winger in a team that doesn't play with wingers who is being juggled beween a central midfield or a wing back role. There's lots for him to change about his way of playing and it will take time. As great as DJ and Clare have been the changes have suited thier style of playing as it already was well enough; Clare is a dynamic, athletic player who can play a bit and DJ's game has always been that he can get up and down the line, win a surprising amount of headers and put a few challenges in. The good thing is Kirk is young and we've got him on a 4 year contract. As things are he doesn't need to suddenly become a world beater overnight, he can adapt and grow with us until he hits a point where he's seriously pushing to knock someone off thier first team perch. There's a real tendency with players now to write them off if they don't perform straight away and want them shipped out, but if we've seen anything this season it's with time and careful handling players can look completely different very quickly. There were plenty saying that Dobson and Clare were evidence of a terrible transfer policy and wanting Ged Roddy strung up, but I bet most who claimed that would now be saying they wish we'd got them on longer than 2 year contracts. There's a thread saying MacGillivray is a relegation keeper. Charlie Kirk has played 12 league minutes under Jackson, and 90 in the FA Cup (where he got an assist) in two completely different positions. He's not had a chance, and if he works hard and adapts his game then there's no reason he can't become a good player for us. I certainly wouldn't want to write him off 4 months in to a 4 year deal.
The problem is that he was signed for a very specific role, and we play a different style of football now. A right footer who likes playing as an inverted winger on the left of a front 3 doesn't really fit in on either side as a wingback.
He's too right footed to play as the left wingback, as we need a left footer there to provide the width. While on the right, getting to the byline and crossing isn't his strength either. PLUS in the Jacko system, the right wingback has to be really mobile and bomb up and down the pitch, which isn't really his style either. And we already have Leko, DJ and CBT who can play there anyway
So unless Jacko changes formation, that leaves the Lee attacking midfield position, where he may be able to cover.
Kirk in the Lee position at Lincoln was genuinely startling in how completely it failed. They have completely different playing styles. It is very hard to see it working out for Kirk in such a role
At Lincoln though, Kirk played under Adkins' system in Adkins' team that was struggling on all levels.
It's a different team now with drive, belief and a different shape. Kirk will know he has to adapt his game to suit. I would guess he and the coaches have already been working on that together.
In any case, Kirk doesn't have to be a clone of Lee to cover. He just needs to fit in and be effective when he gets his chance.
Clayden or Kirk, I suppose that's the question, which has more promise? Kirk has done a decent job at this level. Clayden has struggled to have any impact so far.
One is 20/21 the other 23/24
Will be interesting to see if either can become the kind of Alfie Doughty type we need at LWB.
Kirk is nothing like Doughty, could see the comparison with Clayden but not Kirk.
Although we play 352, it would be foolish not to have a different way of playing, look at the grief Robinson got. For that reason Kirk could still have a part to play, but it’s certainly not as a LWB.
Clayden or Kirk, I suppose that's the question, which has more promise? Kirk has done a decent job at this level. Clayden has struggled to have any impact so far.
One is 20/21 the other 23/24
Will be interesting to see if either can become the kind of Alfie Doughty type we need at LWB.
Kirk is nothing like Doughty, could see the comparison with Clayden but not Kirk.
I wasn't comparing either to Doughty, I was saying we need a player like Doughty and questioning if either could one day get there.
I do agree we need another way to play when 3-5-2 isn't working.
Definitely not going to write him off yet , not sure what his role is going to be in a 352 besides covering for Lee at a push. However at some stage you'll need to mix it up formation wise and then he might get a go.
Hopefully the player below manages to up his levels and get up to speed. I don't want to sound miserable sod, but the attacking play just looks so plain, easy to read and obvious to me. But there are some good players in our squad to learn from in Washy, Lee, DJ, Leko, Purrington.
Perhaps the best performance of his career to date against Championship opposition.
Picking up the ball in central areas, selling a lovely piece of skill and unlocking the defence. Following by a lung busting run around the outside to create an angle for a shot and a goal.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
You have hit on the miserable thing.
From what I have heard this is correct and that he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group. It doesn't sound his fault, but I can't be sure of that.
I hope that JJ can get on top of this as it's no good for the lad's mental health or for the squad if we can't get the best out of him.
Sure i saw something on instagram a while ago and he was out with Lavelle somewhere?
I don't know why we don't give him a couple of games in the U23's to get some game time and some confidence.
This fits in with what I have been told. No, I'm not suggesting it was date BTW.
How does it fit in with what you were told?
You said "he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group". Yet there's clear evidence he is mates with Lavelle plus he was also at the squad christmas party.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
You have hit on the miserable thing.
From what I have heard this is correct and that he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group. It doesn't sound his fault, but I can't be sure of that.
I hope that JJ can get on top of this as it's no good for the lad's mental health or for the squad if we can't get the best out of him.
Sure i saw something on instagram a while ago and he was out with Lavelle somewhere?
I don't know why we don't give him a couple of games in the U23's to get some game time and some confidence.
This fits in with what I have been told. No, I'm not suggesting it was date BTW.
How does it fit in with what you were told?
You said "he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group". Yet there's clear evidence he is mates with Lavelle plus he was also at the squad christmas party.
It may appear contradictory, but it isn't really.
The reason I brought this to the attention of CL is because I think that, like many of the current squad players who have previously been criticised, I believe that we haven't seen the best of him.
Give him some slack and hope that JJ can sort it out.
One thing that does concern me is his attitude. He just seems a bit lazy and miserable, which was highlighted by Artell a number of times.
He walks around the pitch and sulks if things aren’t going his way. Even in the dressing room videos, he’s either got his head down or looking at his phone. The only time he really looks lively is when Jackson jokes about giving them another day off.
I hope it works out for him as he clearly has ability, I just don’t know if it will work for him here. He’s the polar opposite of an Elliot Lee or Alex Gilbey, people who’d I’d class as “proper Charlton” players.
You have hit on the miserable thing.
From what I have heard this is correct and that he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group. It doesn't sound his fault, but I can't be sure of that.
I hope that JJ can get on top of this as it's no good for the lad's mental health or for the squad if we can't get the best out of him.
Sure i saw something on instagram a while ago and he was out with Lavelle somewhere?
I don't know why we don't give him a couple of games in the U23's to get some game time and some confidence.
This fits in with what I have been told. No, I'm not suggesting it was date BTW.
How does it fit in with what you were told?
You said "he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group". Yet there's clear evidence he is mates with Lavelle plus he was also at the squad christmas party.
It may appear contradictory, but it isn't really.
The reason I brought this to the attention of CL is because I think that, like many of the current squad players who have previously been criticised, I believe that we haven't seen the best of him.
Give him some slack and hope that JJ can sort it out.
"I've heard he's not getting on with his teammates"
To
"I've heard he's been hanging out with Lavelle"
Is a bit contradictory, but I'm glad he has been out with his teammates on their Xmas do and is hanging with the other new guy.
His 30 minute substitute performance today can only mean asking one question - what on earth does JJ do with this lad?
Totally invisible for almost of all that time, an horrendous finish to a good half-chance (perhaps in fairness he had already heard the whistle go for a foul), a couple of awful crosses before, in fairness again, he put a peach of a cross over right at the death.
But overall he contributed next to nothing.
Feel sorry for the lad on a personal basis but this is surely not doing him or the club any good. I wonder if JJ offered him back to Crewe on loan so he could play regularly again in surroundings he is comfortable in might improve his confidence and is the way to go? It would also put him in the shop window and maybe we could recoup some of the transfer fee we paid for him if we can sell him at the end of the season.
Or do others think he deserves another chance here?
Don’t really feel, like against Morecambe, we should be judging him in a game, where the whole teams performance were poor, and especially our wing backs today.
Don’t get me wrong, apart from a good ball here and there, he done nothing to show me he deserves to start. But feel it’s a bit premature to judge his ability when he has barely played in a winning side.
I still think there's a good player in there somewhere, but I have genuine concerns that he doesn't fit into a JJ system and, currently, he is really lacking confidence.
I don't think he is good enough with the ball at his feet in tight, congested areas to fulfil any kind of midfield role. Meanwhile, his wingback play lacks any kind of defensive awareness, plus the lack of confidence means he doesn't currently bring anything going forward. I think the Crewe system was all he ever knew and he's had zero stability since his move. It's not to excuse it, but the lad doesn't currently look like the player we paid good money for and looks like an U23 player at best.
I also don't think the rest of the squad rate him either - it felt like Purrington was regularly unwilling to pass to him today. I suspect that he doesn't gel well with the rest of the squad and there's any element of jealousy/envy about a big money player getting paid decent wages and not giving everything for the shirt.
I dunno - maybe he needs a loan and somewhere else to gain some confidence. Any more weak performances and he'll have to go some way to proving he is worthy of even a place on the bench tbh.
Comments
He's too right footed to play as the left wingback, as we need a left footer there to provide the width. While on the right, getting to the byline and crossing isn't his strength either. PLUS in the Jacko system, the right wingback has to be really mobile and bomb up and down the pitch, which isn't really his style either. And we already have Leko, DJ and CBT who can play there anyway
So unless Jacko changes formation, that leaves the Lee attacking midfield position, where he may be able to cover.
It's a different team now with drive, belief and a different shape.
Kirk will know he has to adapt his game to suit. I would guess he and the coaches have already been working on that together.
In any case, Kirk doesn't have to be a clone of Lee to cover. He just needs to fit in and be effective when he gets his chance.
I do agree we need another way to play when 3-5-2 isn't working.
Make @Garrymanilow Head of Level Headedness and Non- Premature Evaluation
Keep him away from the paragraph department, though.... :-)
Perhaps the best performance of his career to date against Championship opposition.
Picking up the ball in central areas, selling a lovely piece of skill and unlocking the defence. Following by a lung busting run around the outside to create an angle for a shot and a goal.
You said "he isn't getting on with his team mates and feels isolated from the group". Yet there's clear evidence he is mates with Lavelle plus he was also at the squad christmas party.
The reason I brought this to the attention of CL is because I think that, like many of the current squad players who have previously been criticised, I believe that we haven't seen the best of him.
Give him some slack and hope that JJ can sort it out.
To
"I've heard he's been hanging out with Lavelle"
Is a bit contradictory, but I'm glad he has been out with his teammates on their Xmas do and is hanging with the other new guy.
Totally invisible for almost of all that time, an horrendous finish to a good half-chance (perhaps in fairness he had already heard the whistle go for a foul), a couple of awful crosses before, in fairness again, he put a peach of a cross over right at the death.
But overall he contributed next to nothing.
Feel sorry for the lad on a personal basis but this is surely not doing him or the club any good. I wonder if JJ offered him back to Crewe on loan so he could play regularly again in surroundings he is comfortable in might improve his confidence and is the way to go? It would also put him in the shop window and maybe we could recoup some of the transfer fee we paid for him if we can sell him at the end of the season.
Or do others think he deserves another chance here?
Don’t get me wrong, apart from a good ball here and there, he done nothing to show me he deserves to start. But feel it’s a bit premature to judge his ability when he has barely played in a winning side.
He put in a decent cross right at the death but no-one got on the end of it.
I don't think he is good enough with the ball at his feet in tight, congested areas to fulfil any kind of midfield role. Meanwhile, his wingback play lacks any kind of defensive awareness, plus the lack of confidence means he doesn't currently bring anything going forward. I think the Crewe system was all he ever knew and he's had zero stability since his move. It's not to excuse it, but the lad doesn't currently look like the player we paid good money for and looks like an U23 player at best.
I also don't think the rest of the squad rate him either - it felt like Purrington was regularly unwilling to pass to him today. I suspect that he doesn't gel well with the rest of the squad and there's any element of jealousy/envy about a big money player getting paid decent wages and not giving everything for the shirt.
I dunno - maybe he needs a loan and somewhere else to gain some confidence. Any more weak performances and he'll have to go some way to proving he is worthy of even a place on the bench tbh.