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Four - four - farkin’ two

We haven’t won in 7 games now. Why do we insist in playing with 3 at the back and wing backs that are constantly exposed/can’t defend? 

When Jacko took over, he took us back to basics. 4-4-2, and it worked. It essentially got him the job! 

In one of his first interviews, he basically said that we needed to get the basics right. Well we need to do that again, because we are now one point out of a possible 21, and scored 3 goals in 7 games. 

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    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This.
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    When you get what you want in your struggle for self
    And the world makes you king for a day
    Just go to the mirror and look at yourself
    And see what that man has to say.

    For it isn’t your father, or mother, or wife 
    Whose judgment upon you must pass
    The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life
    Is the one staring back from the glass.

    He’s the fellow to please – never mind all the rest
    For he’s with you, clear to the end
    And you’ve passed your most difficult, dangerous test
    If the man in the glass is your friend.

    You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years
    And get pats on the back as you pass
    But your final reward will be heartache and tears
    If you’ve cheated the man in the glass. 
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    The players are still either shit, or uninterested in a 442, 433, 424, 41212 you name it, they’re still shit, or uninterested.

    As bizarre as it may sound to some, I want him to stick to his 352 in prep for next season cos that’s clearly his plan. 
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    cafctom said:
    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This.
    It might explain why we capitulated in games such as MK Dons and Oxford, but bottle and desire have nothing to do with the fact we couldn’t even create a chance against 10 men, whilst we had +70% of the possession. And it’s not like we spent that possession passing it around the back either. 

    I’ll give you players being shit though. I really can’t understand how someone like Gunter can be so poor on the ball. I know Famewo has not covered himself in glory this season, but considering we have no other options I’d much rather see him start. 

    But at the end of the day many teams in this league are full of players of the quality we have, yet week in week out, for a long time now, we mostly look like the poorer footballing side both on and off the ball - and that’s a coaching issue. 
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    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    I see no evidence that suggests JJ is instilling desire and bottle. That’s part of his job. I see no evidence that JJ is coaching those players that keep making the same mistakes over and over again. The players are as a squad not good enough but we know from Jackson’s first games in charge that they are a bit better than we’re currently seeing. Blame the players certainly but I don’t see anything in Jackson’s approach that fills me with confidence for the remainder of this season or god forbid next.
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    The players are still either shit, or uninterested in a 442, 433, 424, 41212 you name it, they’re still shit, or uninterested.

    As bizarre as it may sound to some, I want him to stick to his 352 in prep for next season cos that’s clearly his plan. 
    I just want him to players that want to be on the pitch and get into the game. Any player that can’t be arsed and/or drop their heads if we go a goal down need to be shown the door asap along with the negativity they bring the others down with. FFS, getting paid to play football for a living and not going that extra mile  to turn around a run of bad form and results ? Some players are in for a very nasty reality check
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    The players are still either shit, or uninterested in a 442, 433, 424, 41212 you name it, they’re still shit, or uninterested.

    As bizarre as it may sound to some, I want him to stick to his 352 in prep for next season cos that’s clearly his plan. 
    I just want him to players that want to be on the pitch and get into the game. Any player that can’t be arsed and/or drop their heads if we go a goal down need to be shown the door asap along with the negativity they bring the others down with. FFS, getting paid to play football for a living and not going that extra mile  to turn around a run of bad form and results ? Some players are in for a very nasty reality check
    Do we have 11 players like that who will fit into a formation?
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    That hand ball on the touchline that gave them a free kick rather than us a throw-in summed up the players at the moment. They are unable to even get the basics right.

    That said, what a shame we didn't have a ref who guesses when it's a penalty like Lincoln had against us...       
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    edited March 2022
    Has any member of the Charlton press/media asked Jacko about switching the formation from 3-5-2 to something else? (If they have, I must've missed it)
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    I woke up thinking about this and Derby came to my mind. We talk about the players not being good enough but I just don't believe it. Derby have had a 21 point deduction and they're still within touching distance of staying up. They're on a difficult run but what they have done is beaten all the teams around them when they've gone up against them recently and taken some important wins. They've done that despite losing most of their decent players, having a transfer window that has involved them bringing some old men in on free transfers and mostly playing children.
    They beat Barnsley last week and played 4231. Their team consisted of a fairly experienced but very much L1 level goalkeeper aged 29. At the back they had a 19 year old left back, a 20 year old CB alongside 36 year old Curtis Davies and our old friend Nathan Byrne at RB. A decent player for us at L1-level a few years ago. In midfield they had Bielik, absolutely a Championship level player and Max Bird, a 21 year old academy player who looks like he'll be a proper player. In attack they played an 18 year old on the wing along with controversy's Tom Lawrence, a 19 year old released Arsenal academy product up front and Ravel Morrison, a player even Sir Alex Ferguson couldn't get a consistent tune out of. He scored both goals in a 2-0 win. There's about three players in that side who are at the level they need to be at, the rest are over-promoted academy players, elderly cast-offs or middling players who weren't quite good enough to get poached on the cheap by rival clubs. Their manager is in his first job. Despite all this without the deduction they would be 16th, in a pack with Stoke, West Brom, Cardiff and Swansea. It's insane that Derby are even on the same planet as other Championship teams let alone capable of staying up, and I bet if Rooney looked over our team there's a few players he'd take for his starting line-up on paper rather than some of the kids he's forced to play. I wouldn't take Richard Stearman or Curtis Davies for our team, none of us would, but he's getting something out of them through clarity of a plan on the pitch and some serious motivation. Derby might lack quality players but they actually look like they know what they're doing when they get the ball and tht coupled with some effort and desire has seen them beat the teams around them, even if their lack of ability trips them up before they can win consistently.
    We conversely have what should b excellent L1 players. We're full of players who have played at a higher level, performed at this level recently and even shown for us that they can play well, but they seem to have no plan on the pitch and their drive dies after 10 minutes, and their confidence drains away completely when they concede. I don't think it matters if we play 442, 433, 4231, 352, a cheeky 553 or the Flying V from Mighty Ducks, the players have no plan and no motivation. It scares me just how devoid of ideas this lot look, I think they can't be salvaged under this coaching team. Jackson can get in as many new players as he wants but if they come into a squad and there's no patterns of play or clarity of play in transition then they'll get the life drained out of them same as everyone else.   
    This is the bit that I don't really understand and can't, if I am honest, get my head around.

    Under the last 3 managers we have had a pattern of play and a style, if not rigid formation, that worked.  Then suddenly stopped working and they couldn't get it working again. 

    Regardless of your personal opinions of Bowyer, Adkins, Jackson, Euell and Skiverton you can't say they they don't have the relevant experience and qualifications to coach a 3rd tier English side.   They are hardly a bunch of Belgium PE teachers, are they?

    To be honest you can say the same about most of our players as well. 
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    cafctom said:
    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This.
    It might explain why we capitulated in games such as MK Dons and Oxford, but bottle and desire have nothing to do with the fact we couldn’t even create a chance against 10 men, whilst we had +70% of the possession. And it’s not like we spent that possession passing it around the back either. 

    I’ll give you players being shit though. I really can’t understand how someone like Gunter can be so poor on the ball. I know Famewo has not covered himself in glory this season, but considering we have no other options I’d much rather see him start. 

    But at the end of the day many teams in this league are full of players of the quality we have, yet week in week out, for a long time now, we mostly look like the poorer footballing side both on and off the ball - and that’s a coaching issue. 
    Baffled by Curbs’ comment on Saturday that Gunter has never let us down. I’m struggling to remember him making a positive contribution.
    Goal line clearance against Sunderland ?
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    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    I see no evidence that suggests JJ is instilling desire and bottle. That’s part of his job. I see no evidence that JJ is coaching those players that keep making the same mistakes over and over again. The players are as a squad not good enough but we know from Jackson’s first games in charge that they are a bit better than we’re currently seeing. Blame the players certainly but I don’t see anything in Jackson’s approach that fills me with confidence for the remainder of this season or god forbid next.
    Lovely Chap, but when you're a free kick taker and you've not been able to get a single person taking half decent set pieces since you've been a coach in various forms... you have to wonder.
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    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This doesn't begin to describe our problem accurately or fully though 
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    Leuth said:
    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This doesn't begin to describe our problem accurately or fully though 
    Doesn't it? I do agree that the reasons are likely to be a bit more complex at the root, but they have played better than this under the exact same manager.

    Shit players with no bottle seems a fairly accurate if overly basic summary of the problem. 
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    thenewbie said:
    Leuth said:
    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This doesn't begin to describe our problem accurately or fully though 
    Doesn't it? I do agree that the reasons are likely to be a bit more complex at the root, but they have played better than this under the exact same manager.

    Shit players with no bottle seems a fairly accurate if overly basic summary of the problem. 
    Is it the problem or the symptoms? 
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    I don't think the players are shit or aren't trying (there are a few holes in the squad but in general). I think they're directionless, confused, afraid. A very significant part of why falls upon the management team.

    That said, there are quite a few players I'm fairly disappointed with, both in terms of their quality and their decision-making 
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    Leuth said:
    I don't think the players are shit or aren't trying (there are a few holes in the squad but in general). I think they're directionless, confused, afraid. A very significant part of why falls upon the management team.

    That said, there are quite a few players I'm fairly disappointed with, both in terms of their quality and their decision-making 
    There are, probably 5 at least players, that were like that under Bowyer and as soon as Adkins walked through the door became very good league 1 players.  They then reverted back under Adkins and did exactly the same under Jackson.

    Go and read the Sunderland away post match threads, they are identical in terms of clear instructions, everyone knowing their role, how refreshing it was, certain players coming back into the team. They were six months apart.  How is that even possible. 
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    edited March 2022
    I thought it was just our club that has fans suggesting 442 when we're on a losing streak, but I learned recently that it happens at a lot of clubs. Such a curious thing since nobody really plays it anymore and for good reason.

    I guess what people are really asking for is just to go back to basics but there's going back to basics and then there's going back to 1996.
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    edited March 2022
    Chunes said:
    I thought it was just our club that has fans suggesting 442 when we're on a losing streak, but I learned recently that it happens at a lot of clubs. Such a curious thing since nobody really plays it anymore and for good reason.

    I guess what people are really asking for is just to go back to basics but there's going back to basics and then there's going back to 1996.
    The best one is that it's a formation the players understand. I bet Ben Watson is the only player at the club who has ever played it.  They don't even play 11 aside at primery school any more. So they wouldn't have played it then. 
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    IF you can keep your head when all about you

    Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,

    If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,

    But make allowance for their doubting too;

    If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,

    Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,

    Or being hated, don't give way to hating,

    And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:


    If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;

    If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;

    If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster

    And treat those two impostors just the same;

    If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken

    Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,

    Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

    And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:


    If you can make one heap of all your winnings

    And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,

    And lose, and start again at your beginnings

    And never breathe a word about your loss;

    If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew

    To serve your turn long after they are gone,

    And so hold on when there is nothing in you

    Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'


    If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,

    ' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,

    if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,

    If all men count with you, but none too much;

    If you can fill the unforgiving minute

    With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,

    Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,

    And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!



    Mike Bassett - July 2002

    Mr Kipling wrote exceedingly good poems .. AND as regards 4 4 2 .. I agree totally, nothing fancy for this division and our bunch of under performers .. back to basics lol
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    Cafc43v3r said:
    thenewbie said:
    Leuth said:
    It doesn't make any difference what system you try to play if your players are shit and have no bottle or desire. 
    This doesn't begin to describe our problem accurately or fully though 
    Doesn't it? I do agree that the reasons are likely to be a bit more complex at the root, but they have played better than this under the exact same manager.

    Shit players with no bottle seems a fairly accurate if overly basic summary of the problem. 
    Is it the problem or the symptoms? 
    To be fair, that really is the big question. Although sadly the answer is probably a bit of both. 
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    442 only works in the modern game if you have players that have a bit of everything, the full backs need to be defensively sound but also be able to attack well, the centre backs must be decent in the air, positionally strong, good in the tackle and relatively quick, the central midfielders need a really good engine, defensively good, be able to pick a pass, drive forwards with the ball and shoot well, the wide midfielders need to be pacy, tricky, be able to track back, cross the ball, cut inside and shoot, and take good throw ins, and the strikers need to be strong to hold the ball up, fast enough to outpace defenders, agile enough to create space, be deadly clinical and good enough in the air to win headers.

    Different formations like 352, 433, 4231 enable you to play more specifically talented players in roles across the pitch
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