Well we've gone from "blowing the league away" to "playoffs being the worst case scenario."
He's getting better but still not quite there...
Just wish TS would shut up about what we are GOING to do.
The expression is "under promise, over deliver" not the other way around, as has been the case so far under his regime.
And the worst case scenario is relegation, not play-offs.
TS has had two attempts at the play-offs so far and missed out both times.
There were a lot of things wrong when Sandgaard took over and he's slowly corrected some of them, off the pitch at least.
I like that he's ambitious and is aiming high with Cat 1 etc (and I couldn't give a toss about the guitar or sunglasses) but you brag about your successes when you've achieved them, not before.
For all the good and important commercial successes everything, rightly or wrongly, at a professional football club will be seen through the prism of the men's first team results.
TS should have enough self-reflection to realise that if the managers (Atkins, Jackson) and directors (Roddy) you appointed fail within a few short months either they were poor appointments, which is your fault, or they weren't given the tools to do the job, which is also your fault.
Making mistakes is inevitable, not learning from them is unforgivable.
My initial instinct was that the new manager was already lined up. Surely you don't go in a short summer off season without a boss?
My fear is that Jackson's sacking was a knee-jerk reaction to the Ipswich debacle and were now scrabbling around for a replacement or even worse, think we can have a successful recruitment without a number one in place when we know the first question players and agents will ask is "who's in charge?" You can bet other clubs after the same players will be dropping that into conversation.
Appoint someone this week or next who is a decent coach and leader and is happy with the recruitment model, buy a whole new defence and some more quality elsewhere and yes, play-offs MIGHT be achieved, it should certainly be the target but we can and have done a lot worse.
I think this is fair and where I am. The problem for me is that if we get extravagant promises I simply don't believe them anymore until I see them form in reality. I too fear that Jacko's sacking was knee jerk with no plan formulated for after it. I am sort of fearful that we will mess about with this recruitment when the plan for next season should already have been in action. We should at least know what we are trying to do but we have to wait now surely. We definitely need to see the new manager in post very quickly and I then ask the question how long it will take to get them up to speed.
It makes sense that Euell is still on board. A new manager is going to need his knowledge of the squad despite what some on here might say. Personally, I would give Euell the job because that is the method that has worked for us, whereas the method of bringing in a new experienced manager has never worked. But I wouldn't have sacked Jacko. He had a situation where a lot of players knew they had no future at the club and significant injury issues to boot.
It is a bit shocking to me how quickly people compare Sandgaard to Duchatelet. Roland was the worst thing that could have possibly happened to our club. He didn't care, was adamant his way of doing things was the only way, but to the aggressive exclusion of the fans. He actively worked against fans, posting statements against them, ignoring absolutely all input from others, briefing against 'disgruntled ex-employees', allowing his CEO to employ people to physically assault fans with no reprimand and holding the club to the ransom of his big idea. He hired random blokes from the Belgian third division and wanted to bring in some guy who played indoor football to manage the club. I think because it was a while ago and we had Southall and then another bloke whose name I genuinely can't remember and refuse to Google people have forgotten just how desperate things were. The prick even still owns our home and won't give it back. He sold us on to an obvious pack of crooks because as far as he was concerned he either got the money for the asset off them or he didn't; if the stuff around it burned to the ground he didn't give a single one, The Valley and Sparrows lane were still good land he could make use of.
Sandgaard has an ego and thinks his way is best, and he does make a concerningly large amount of first draft cock ups but we regularly do see recalibration of his choices and we have real engagement from our owner. It's not some remote nutcase in another country never appearing and remaining silent unless it's to complain about us, nor is it some charlatan sweeping through Crossbars to applause while siphoning all the cash out of the club. On Sunday Sandgaard, who lives in Colorado, presented medals to a team of 16-18 year old girls at The Valley because they won the Reserve South Central league title. He did this at a women's match with an attendance of 710. He does genuinely care, he's just got a lot to learn and a lip that he could do with buttoning. I'll take that every single day over an owner who would deliberately, actively destroy the club if it meant he got the chance to show that his brain is biggest.
Sandgaard is not above scrutiny and him saving the club is credit that he has received and is now in the past, but please don't call him Roland mk II because he doesn't fancy watching us hoof the ball out of play for the 37th time that half while Morecambe run rings around us. For the first time since 2014 we have an owner that actually wants us to do well, it's not perfect but Jesus, it's not Roland.
Fantastic post. It’s actually driving me mad the agenda against Thomas, all he’s done is try and be positive about this club and if you think otherwise you must be high?
Unnecessary when it gets to reductionist insults and pits the pros v againsts amongst our fanbase and stifles debate/ becomes an echo chamber. Anyone who is critical of TS and his ability to move us forward based on what we've seen to date must be high? Bollocks.
I got an instinct at the outset from pretty much day one when the publicity photos in shades with guitar appeared on the official site that something was off. Back then I put it down to enthusiasm and having our own David Brent who we'd love as he'd deliver on what he said and then none of us would care if he played the guitar in the centre circle ahead of each game. Plus I shared (and still do) the massive gratitude for the epic way he rode in and saw of the wrong uns and put the club back in the hands of someone who wasn't a wrong un and actually appeared to be interested in developing the football side of things.
However from the minute he paraded around the pitch ahead of a lucky draw v Sheff Wed and the shambolic recruitment strategy and execution that saw us looming at the bottom of the 3rd division before Jackson pulled us back from the precipice I've not seen the results/ actions that back up the intentions and a lot of it comes across a excellent PR/ salesmanship to an adoring (almost messianic following in some quarters of the fanbase) audience.
I said at the time I'll judge on actions and not words. I've not seen anything of note to date to suggest we will see anything different from last season and unless there is an impending masterstroke waiting in the wings we're in a very short pre season period with potential mass exodus of current players and no one with any real credibility visibly identifying and signing players to move us forward. Concerns are there that this season may have been a laugh a minute compared to what may unfold if whatever TS has planned doesn't materialise in the way he envisages.
I appreciate I am cynical and have held a cynical position largely based on the ownership debacles of the past decade and therefore I will view through such a lens and require to see real action before going all in with optimism...but by the same measure
I think many are hypnotised by their understandable desperation for us to return to the good times and his interaction on twitter and in the pub and it can cloud judgement...perhaps in the way that our judgement was clouded by Jackson's results and a loss of objectivity because of a fondness for the man.
Decent bloke with heart in the right place I'm sure but enough football nous to make our club a success in an evermore competitive environment...I'm completely unconvinced based on what's transpired to date and the epic gulf between words and actions, plans and realities.
If he turns it around and this season lives up to his stated expectations then I will happily revoke my cynicism and have massive amounts of respect for delivering but until then I'll wait to see what actually unfolds in reality.
My heart says JJ should have been given longer at least until October but my head says if that had happened we would be having this discussion at that time instead of now. Whilst I accept JJ had bad luck with injuries and he didn't have the players to fit his system and that may have changed with another transfer window, he didn't seem to be able to get the players to play for him. Neither did we look as though we worked at anything in training with basic defensive errors and nobody able to take a decent set piece whether it be a corner or free kick. In reflection and hindsight what has surprised me most is that he didn't go earlier. TS knew several games ago that we had secured L1 football for next season and our best placed finish was likely to be 12th, so why not make the termination a few games ago allowing more time to get in a replacement before pre season and the opening of the transfer window. We all want to get up and running for next season asap and if it was the intention to get rid of JJ if he failed to get 8th place why wait until the end of the season?
“I actually disagree with you about Jackson’s quality as a coach for the following reasons: [insert reasons]
”Personally, I feel [insert coach name(s) would be a good replacement.
Feel free to use this template. You don’t have to be negative and sarcastic with complete strangers online. I’m sure you’d be perfectly civil if we met in person.
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
Our fanbase's constant need for some sort of villain character is exhausting. I'm sceptical of TS' comments, and have never liked the showman stuff, but some of the language being used on Twitter now to describe him is crazy.
Another way to view Jacko’s overall “delivery” from Sunderland away onwards:
- has he improved any of the players he inherited? Well, just look at the POTY winner and the runner-up to answer that, and where were they, especially Dobbo, under Adkins? He wouldn’t have been POTY by such a margin if he was just a “bouncer”. You can probably easily add CBT.
- have any players gone backwards under Jacko? I think most of the under performers have underperformed pretty much all season; Famewo top of my list, Leko in most people’s. DJ has been inconsistent all season, but he tore Plymouth a new one at the Valley.
Overall I tend still to feel that his departure was inevitable - I think I agree with those who say that TS never really wanted him (or Bowyer), and ultimately the owner has the right to decide whom he employs and is able to work with effectively, but I don’t agree with the line that "the results speak for themselves". Like many managerial sackings - or successes - the reasons are far more nuanced.
Elliot Lee for sure went backwards as the season progressed. Burstow also..though give both player and manager a break on that one. Others underperformed throughout vs the previous year (Famewo, Gilbey who was looking good at the end of 20-21). Inniss' return a car crash, and if he wasn't ready physically why di JJ risk him - would it have been a shock/disaster if Elerewe had replaced Lavelle in the Wimbledon game? Getting no more out of players than Adkins did is not much of an endorsement - and for me why JJ had to go.
And Jacko wasn't an outsider who arrived in the autumn, he was a key member of the coaching staff, who would have been working closely with the likes of Famewo, Lee, Gilbey, Leko etc all season
And Ipswich wasn't a bad performance out of nowhere, after the players heard Jacko was going. The previous few games had been hard work too, with very ordinary football
5 defeats against good sides, Decent draw against Sunderland, but backs against the wall really, and NO shots on target Dismal defeat and performance at Accrington 3 wins, but against very poor sides Poor defeat against Accrington Turgid draw against Wimbledon We played them when they were slightly struggling, but still an excellent win at Rotherham Grim defeat to Morecambe Flukey win thanks to 2 defections at a Cambridge side who'd rested most of their better players Workmanlike win over Shrews, thanks to 2 set pieces
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
You want it darker? Fine.
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
Our fanbase's constant need for some sort of villain character is exhausting. I'm sceptical of TS' comments, and have never liked the showman stuff, but some of the language being used on Twitter now to describe him is crazy.
Couldn’t have put it better myself. A fan base so burnt from the past, TS has his faults but isn’t nowhere near as bad as RD. The comparisons are laughable.
My heart says JJ should have been given longer at least until October but my head says if that had happened we would be having this discussion at that time instead of now. Whilst I accept JJ had bad luck with injuries and he didn't have the players to fit his system and that may have changed with another transfer window, he didn't seem to be able to get the players to play for him. Neither did we look as though we worked at anything in training with basic defensive errors and nobody able to take a decent set piece whether it be a corner or free kick. In reflection and hindsight what has surprised me most is that he didn't go earlier. TS knew several games ago that we had secured L1 football for next season and our best placed finish was likely to be 12th, so why not make the termination a few games ago allowing more time to get in a replacement before pre season and the opening of the transfer window. We all want to get up and running for next season asap and if it was the intention to get rid of JJ if he failed to get 8th place why wait until the end of the season?
Probably because the pay out due to JJ was dependent on our final league position. If JJ had been sacked before the end of the season I presume TS would have had to pay maximum compensation, for breaking the contract.
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Any truth in the rumour that Martin Sandgaard told Connor Washington two weeks ago that his contract wouldn’t be renewed because he didn’t fit in with the new manager’s plans?
If this is true, it's disgusting behaviour, players knowning JJ was getting sacked before the man himself...? Wow.
what the hell is wrong with people's basic critical thinking, to read that and even slightly believe it
May or may not be true but given that Thomas didn't have the decency to speak to JJ face to face when dismissing him having given no inclination of it happening just over 24 hours before hand and other recent events, I'd suggest that it's not beyond the realms of possibility. In addition, there have been a couple of versions of something similar being said. All allude to the decision being out of the manager's hands. I can't believe that JJ would have sanctioned Martin having any kind of conversation like that with Connor as it completely undermines him. Not least it hints at his departure does it not?
Imagine being told you're getting a new deal if you finish 8th, then finishing 12th with a final flurry of shit.... but still expect to have to go into work to be told what you already know.
If I won euro millions tomorrow I can’t work out if that would be good or bad money, but I would try to buy the training ground and the Valley with some of the dosh.
Any truth in the rumour that Martin Sandgaard told Connor Washington two weeks ago that his contract wouldn’t be renewed because he didn’t fit in with the new manager’s plans?
If this is true, it's disgusting behaviour, players knowning JJ was getting sacked before the man himself...? Wow.
what the hell is wrong with people's basic critical thinking, to read that and even slightly believe it
Please don't get me wrong Rothko, I'm very pleased if this wasn't true, but more than 1 poster mentioned it. I'm purely going off what others have said.
If I won euro millions tomorrow I can’t work out if that would be good or bad money, but I would try to buy the training ground and the Valley with some of the dosh.
It would be sick as hell money obv
(I mean, lotteries are exploitative and what have you but a jackpot winner using it to prop up an important local civic institution? What could be better! Except investing in a vegan saddle business )
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
You want it darker? Fine.
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
Don't disagree with any of this Leuth. But doesn't mean that just because it's the way it is that anyone who isn't a wrong un is above criticism particularly when they continue to set ludicrous expectations.
If the approach was more tempered i.e. football is fucked, we'll do our best to progress and keep moving forwards within our means etc in an evermore difficult game rather than the waffle we've been spun even this week without any substance or suggestion of meaningful strategy then I think the vocal critics including myself would be silent.
It's the bullshit that grates and the air of arrogance that assumes it can be done with little to no experience.
Anyway it's not healthy or productive to keep being negative so I'll keep schtum and not post about TS any more and see where we are come August and at Christmas.
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
You want it darker? Fine.
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
Don't disagree with any of this Leuth. But doesn't mean that just because it's the way it is that anyone who isn't a wrong un is above criticism particularly when they continue to set ludicrous expectations.
If the approach was more tempered i.e. football is fucked, we'll do our best to progress and keep moving forwards within our means etc in an evermore difficult game rather than the waffle we've been spun even this week without any substance or suggestion of meaningful strategy then I think the vocal critics including myself would be silent.
It's the bullshit that grates and the air of arrogance that assumes it can be done with little to no experience.
Anyway it's not healthy or productive to keep being negative so I'll keep schtum and not post about TS any more and see where we are come August and at Christmas.
Of course, and I'd say Sandgaard has already learnt to temper his rhetoric a little bit thanks to (the more constructive) criticism he's received. He's quite impulsive and this is all a learning experience for him as well as a breakneck cultural exchange.
But my instinct is that the criticism should remain constructive and not approach the levels of antagonism it did under Duchatelet.
In terms of concrete decisions Sandgaard has made regarding staff employment, I find it hard to think of one I've categorically disagreed with at the time, and he's also shown himself quick to reverse poor appointments (not just managers but Roddy etc).
I will add that the next appointment is as everyone has said crucial. I'm sure TS knows this, and I'm also sure he knows what the fanbase doesn't want.
Any truth in the rumour that Martin Sandgaard told Connor Washington two weeks ago that his contract wouldn’t be renewed because he didn’t fit in with the new manager’s plans?
If this is true, it's disgusting behaviour, players knowning JJ was getting sacked before the man himself...? Wow.
what the hell is wrong with people's basic critical thinking, to read that and even slightly believe it
May or may not be true but given that Thomas didn't have the decency to speak to JJ face to face when dismissing him having given no inclination of it happening just over 24 hours before hand and other recent events, I'd suggest that it's not beyond the realms of possibility. In addition, there have been a couple of versions of something similar being said. All allude to the decision being out of the manager's hands. I can't believe that JJ would have sanctioned Martin having any kind of conversation like that with Connor as it completely undermines him. Not least it hints at his departure does it not?
Imagine being told you're getting a new deal if you finish 8th, then finishing 12th with a final flurry of shit.... but still expect to have to go into work to be told what you already know.
It’s called the real world, I have targets at work, if I don’t meet them, I would be having the same discussion with my boss.
Any truth in the rumour that Martin Sandgaard told Connor Washington two weeks ago that his contract wouldn’t be renewed because he didn’t fit in with the new manager’s plans?
If this is true, it's disgusting behaviour, players knowning JJ was getting sacked before the man himself...? Wow.
what the hell is wrong with people's basic critical thinking, to read that and even slightly believe it
May or may not be true but given that Thomas didn't have the decency to speak to JJ face to face when dismissing him having given no inclination of it happening just over 24 hours before hand and other recent events, I'd suggest that it's not beyond the realms of possibility. In addition, there have been a couple of versions of something similar being said. All allude to the decision being out of the manager's hands. I can't believe that JJ would have sanctioned Martin having any kind of conversation like that with Connor as it completely undermines him. Not least it hints at his departure does it not?
Imagine being told you're getting a new deal if you finish 8th, then finishing 12th with a final flurry of shit.... but still expect to have to go into work to be told what you already know.
It’s called the real world, I have targets at work, if I don’t meet them, I would be having the same discussion with my boss.
If it was as cut and dried as that, then JJ's departure would not have come as a surprise to him or anyone else. Why, then I wonder, didn't JJ or Sandgaard mention it in their interviews on Charlton Live just over 24 hours before hand?
Any truth in the rumour that Martin Sandgaard told Connor Washington two weeks ago that his contract wouldn’t be renewed because he didn’t fit in with the new manager’s plans?
If this is true, it's disgusting behaviour, players knowning JJ was getting sacked before the man himself...? Wow.
what the hell is wrong with people's basic critical thinking, to read that and even slightly believe it
May or may not be true but given that Thomas didn't have the decency to speak to JJ face to face when dismissing him having given no inclination of it happening just over 24 hours before hand and other recent events, I'd suggest that it's not beyond the realms of possibility. In addition, there have been a couple of versions of something similar being said. All allude to the decision being out of the manager's hands. I can't believe that JJ would have sanctioned Martin having any kind of conversation like that with Connor as it completely undermines him. Not least it hints at his departure does it not?
Imagine being told you're getting a new deal if you finish 8th, then finishing 12th with a final flurry of shit.... but still expect to have to go into work to be told what you already know.
It’s called the real world, I have targets at work, if I don’t meet them, I would be having the same discussion with my boss.
If it was as cut and dried as that, then JJ's departure would not have come as a surprise to him or anyone else. Why, then I wonder, didn't JJ or Sandgaard mention it in their interviews on Charlton Live just over 24 hours before hand?
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
You want it darker? Fine.
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
Football’s not fucked. Look at all the money in it. Everyone knows the more money in sport, the better ;-)
Agree with the most part of this too. Although, there is a leap from being wary and critical of him to wanting him out. It’s not a case of cutting to the chase for me, at all.
If I won euro millions tomorrow I can’t work out if that would be good or bad money, but I would try to buy the training ground and the Valley with some of the dosh.
My opinion of my fellow Charlton fans has rarely been lower than it has in the last couple of days. There seems to be a whole industry of people who gained cred and followers opposing Duchatelet, who've had to lie dormant for a while, and who have now sensed the opportunity to doomsay, cavil, insinuate and rabble-rouse. TS hasn't done a single thing to genuinely alarm me yet. Frustrate, perhaps - he's new to this game - but the high-handed demands for us to 'worry about Charlton's future' feel to me like certain people want to be important again
Nicely written, but completely wrong.
‘A whole industry of people’? Seriously?
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
You want it darker? Fine.
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
Don't disagree with any of this Leuth. But doesn't mean that just because it's the way it is that anyone who isn't a wrong un is above criticism particularly when they continue to set ludicrous expectations.
If the approach was more tempered i.e. football is fucked, we'll do our best to progress and keep moving forwards within our means etc in an evermore difficult game rather than the waffle we've been spun even this week without any substance or suggestion of meaningful strategy then I think the vocal critics including myself would be silent.
It's the bullshit that grates and the air of arrogance that assumes it can be done with little to no experience.
Anyway it's not healthy or productive to keep being negative so I'll keep schtum and not post about TS any more and see where we are come August and at Christmas.
This is a rhythm that I've noitced quite a few times on here, when people point out that some of the reactions to TS are OTT or unfair you get back that he's 'not above criticism'. I don't think many have said he is though, there were a few people saying he saved the club at the start, but following that I think there's a middle ground. People aren't saying he shouldn't be criticised at all, but saying that he's another one who is destroying our club is way beyond reality and you're not saying he's beyond criticism by pointing that out.
I can’t see much on this thread to suggest that there is a hysterical mob armed with pitchforks demanding Thomas’s head. People have got legitimate doubts about him and are sharing them, generally in measured and reasonable terms.
I deactivated my Twitter account last week, so maybe I’m missing something.
I can’t see much on this thread to suggest that there is a hysterical mob armed with pitchforks demanding Thomas’s head. People have got legitimate doubts about him and are sharing them, generally in measured and reasonable terms.
I deactivated my Twitter account last week, so maybe I’m missing something.
I can’t see much on this thread to suggest that there is a hysterical mob armed with pitchforks demanding Thomas’s head. People have got legitimate doubts about him and are sharing them, generally in measured and reasonable terms.
I deactivated my Twitter account last week, so maybe I’m missing something.
I just unfollowed anything I found annoying. Basically I follow what/who I like and remove the rest.
People calling Sandgaard a c*** for instance, I'd have to go looking for that now.
I can’t see much on this thread to suggest that there is a hysterical mob armed with pitchforks demanding Thomas’s head. People have got legitimate doubts about him and are sharing them, generally in measured and reasonable terms.
I deactivated my Twitter account last week, so maybe I’m missing something.
I just unfollowed anything I found annoying. Basically I follow what/who I like and remove the rest.
People calling Sandgaard a c*** for instance, I'd have to go looking for that now.
Just mute the sentence you find annoying - I do the same with crap like "Pessi" and "Penaldo" from the Football twitter accounts that appear on most general news stories.
Comments
It makes sense that Euell is still on board. A new manager is going to need his knowledge of the squad despite what some on here might say. Personally, I would give Euell the job because that is the method that has worked for us, whereas the method of bringing in a new experienced manager has never worked. But I wouldn't have sacked Jacko. He had a situation where a lot of players knew they had no future at the club and significant injury issues to boot.
Unnecessary when it gets to reductionist insults and pits the pros v againsts amongst our fanbase and stifles debate/ becomes an echo chamber. Anyone who is critical of TS and his ability to move us forward based on what we've seen to date must be high? Bollocks.
I got an instinct at the outset from pretty much day one when the publicity photos in shades with guitar appeared on the official site that something was off. Back then I put it down to enthusiasm and having our own David Brent who we'd love as he'd deliver on what he said and then none of us would care if he played the guitar in the centre circle ahead of each game. Plus I shared (and still do) the massive gratitude for the epic way he rode in and saw of the wrong uns and put the club back in the hands of someone who wasn't a wrong un and actually appeared to be interested in developing the football side of things.
However from the minute he paraded around the pitch ahead of a lucky draw v Sheff Wed and the shambolic recruitment strategy and execution that saw us looming at the bottom of the 3rd division before Jackson pulled us back from the precipice I've not seen the results/ actions that back up the intentions and a lot of it comes across a excellent PR/ salesmanship to an adoring (almost messianic following in some quarters of the fanbase) audience.
I said at the time I'll judge on actions and not words. I've not seen anything of note to date to suggest we will see anything different from last season and unless there is an impending masterstroke waiting in the wings we're in a very short pre season period with potential mass exodus of current players and no one with any real credibility visibly identifying and signing players to move us forward. Concerns are there that this season may have been a laugh a minute compared to what may unfold if whatever TS has planned doesn't materialise in the way he envisages.
I appreciate I am cynical and have held a cynical position largely based on the ownership debacles of the past decade and therefore I will view through such a lens and require to see real action before going all in with optimism...but by the same measure
I think many are hypnotised by their understandable desperation for us to return to the good times and his interaction on twitter and in the pub and it can cloud judgement...perhaps in the way that our judgement was clouded by Jackson's results and a loss of objectivity because of a fondness for the man.
Decent bloke with heart in the right place I'm sure but enough football nous to make our club a success in an evermore competitive environment...I'm completely unconvinced based on what's transpired to date and the epic gulf between words and actions, plans and realities.
If he turns it around and this season lives up to his stated expectations then I will happily revoke my cynicism and have massive amounts of respect for delivering but until then I'll wait to see what actually unfolds in reality.
If that makes me high then so be it.
Fans who care about our club which has been through the mill at the hands of bona fide wrong uns for a succession of ownerships and lack the apathy to not speak out/ act out against it. And thank f*** for having such a fanbase and long may it continue in the murky world of modern football.
I'm sure each and everyone of our successive ownerships' critics would happily permanently cease the rabble rousing in exchange for and end to the seemingly perpetual off the field circuses.
And Ipswich wasn't a bad performance out of nowhere, after the players heard Jacko was going. The previous few games had been hard work too, with very ordinary football
5 defeats against good sides,
Decent draw against Sunderland, but backs against the wall really, and NO shots on target
Dismal defeat and performance at Accrington
3 wins, but against very poor sides
Poor defeat against Accrington
Turgid draw against Wimbledon
We played them when they were slightly struggling, but still an excellent win at Rotherham
Grim defeat to Morecambe
Flukey win thanks to 2 defections at a Cambridge side who'd rested most of their better players
Workmanlike win over Shrews, thanks to 2 set pieces
Football is fucked. It is incredibly difficult to progress even in League One without making tremendous losses. Higher up - forget it. The industry is not about 'responsible ownership', it is a prestige industry for the world's barons to launder their cash and wage PR campaigns so that they don't come across as the thieving parasites they generally are (with a few decent exceptions). Sandgaard, while he's technically linked to the monstrosity that is the US healthcare system, is actually someone whose products help people, which already has him in the top few percent of EFL owners on some vague and probably highly subjective morality index.
When we 'speak out' or 'act against' owners, what is it we want? Yes, the protests against Duchatelet were justified as he was making insane decisions one after another, and they ended up working, because (along with the new FFP rules and the difficulties of running a European football network post-Brexit) they persuaded him that the club had to be sold. What our effective protests boiled down to was: Roland Out. Right, well, let's cut through the crap and say that any protests being mooted now are Sandgaard Out protests. The trouble is that with football ownership it's never just X Out, it's Y In (which is why it took so long to Get Roland Out, of course). So, after Sandgaard goes, what do we want? To own the club ourselves? Well, put us in League Two or lower and we might be able to, just about. Failing that, what do we want? A horrible exploiter bastard who just happens to be from SE London to sink some of his (or her) ill-gotten gains into Charlton so that we can all say 'yeah but they're OUR bastard', while they continue to slumlord or expand their slot-machine empire or whatever other nefarious method they've chosen to become rich enough to own a prospective Championship club? Yes, owners with relatively palatable businesses do exist - Steve Gibson, Dale Vince and so forth - but these are men who are willing to lose a hell of a lot of money to prop up their local communities, and in Vince's case to further a green agenda (that I happen to be on board with). They're exceptions.
Failing that, oil money?
We were in trouble for years. YEARS. And nobody stood up to take us over. Nobody had the cash. We didn't have a local champion or even consortium. Sandgaard stood up. He had his reasons. More to the point, he had the cash, and he wanted to have some fun with it. And really, what else could we have hoped for? His fun is our fun now. At least he wants to see some good football. Don't we all?
Supporting EFL football forces us to bow to its ultra-wealthy owners. And until that model changes, my advice is either to stop supporting us, or to hope that - and yes, demand that - our ultra-wealthy owner is doing it for the right reasons. Duchatelet was doing it to prove himself right, which is a dangerous thing. Sandgaard, for me, is doing it for the right reasons. And if you disagree, well. Perhaps you have convinced yourself that Andrew Barclay's cash is good cash. Honourable, British cash. Cash that didn't bid for us for many years when it could have. Cash that won't bid now.
If JJ had been sacked before the end of the season I presume TS would have had to pay maximum compensation, for breaking the contract.
(I mean, lotteries are exploitative and what have you but a jackpot winner using it to prop up an important local civic institution? What could be better! Except investing in a vegan saddle business
Don't disagree with any of this Leuth. But doesn't mean that just because it's the way it is that anyone who isn't a wrong un is above criticism particularly when they continue to set ludicrous expectations.
If the approach was more tempered i.e. football is fucked, we'll do our best to progress and keep moving forwards within our means etc in an evermore difficult game rather than the waffle we've been spun even this week without any substance or suggestion of meaningful strategy then I think the vocal critics including myself would be silent.
It's the bullshit that grates and the air of arrogance that assumes it can be done with little to no experience.
Anyway it's not healthy or productive to keep being negative so I'll keep schtum and not post about TS any more and see where we are come August and at Christmas.
But my instinct is that the criticism should remain constructive and not approach the levels of antagonism it did under Duchatelet.
In terms of concrete decisions Sandgaard has made regarding staff employment, I find it hard to think of one I've categorically disagreed with at the time, and he's also shown himself quick to reverse poor appointments (not just managers but Roddy etc).
He does go on a bit, but c'mon, he's American
Agree with the most part of this too. Although, there is a leap from being wary and critical of him to wanting him out. It’s not a case of cutting to the chase for me, at all.
People calling Sandgaard a c*** for instance, I'd have to go looking for that now.