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Gorbachev dies
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Well, that’s one. Not exactly “a number” in the sense you were meaning. However, much as I agree with her/him, she/he can save it for the elsewhere, too.SporadicAddick said:
Let’s start with wightaddicts comment at 9.30.AddicksAddict said:
Don’t see anyone else making the same reference as you so I’ll stick to putting the boot in to you, metaphorically of course.SporadicAddick said:
Mmm. I’m thinking you might need to reply with the same comment to a number of other posts on this thread as well. Good luck and enjoy.AddicksAddict said:
Save it for the political area.SporadicAddick said:Spookily I was in Reykjavik today looking at the building where he and Reagan met in 1986. Until recently we could have traced the end of the Cold War back to that meeting. Recent events have reversed that.
He inadvertently oversaw the end of the USSR - it wasn’t his goal or ambition. Despite the rewriting of history he was a Marxist-Leninist to the core, albeit with a broader perspective on international engagement.We should be grateful that he f*cked up the scourge of communism for a short period at least.
RIP.0 -
The chairman of Russia's Lukoil oil giant, Ravil Maganov, has died after falling from a hospital window in Moscow, reports say.The company confirmed his death but said only that Maganov, 67, had "passed away following a severe illness".Russian media said he was being treated at Moscow's Central Clinical Hospital and died of his injuries.Maganov is the latest of a number of high-profile business executives to die in mysterious circumstances.
How unlucky0 -
For those of us who have watched Bald and Bankrupt on Youtube, it's very interesting to see how some remote parts of the soviet union were a hotbed of industrial/scientific industry, but have just fallen into complete disrepair since 1991.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
It's easy to judge with the benefit of hindsight but the USSR was ultimately going to hit problems at some stage. I doubt any individual leader could have planned change with the foresight required.Making_all_the_noise said:There are a thousand ways to interpret the fall of the Soviet Union and the role Gorbachev played in it. For me the most convincing is that he became the accidental hero of the West. A guy who realised the Soviet Union needed reform but was unaware that once he started reform, once he allowed some transparency, he would lose control of the situation. Momentum took over and eventually Yeltsin sniffed his opportunity to place himself at the vanguard of the calls for greater freedoms.
Gorbachev was a wily political operator and had to be in order to survive in the Russian political arena during such a tumultuous period but he never intended for the Soviet Union to collapse. His later, largely failed attempt to keep Ukraine and Belarus tied to Moscow are evident that he still wanted a Union of sorts. Gorbachev had no plans for what came after the end of the USSR, mainly because he never intended it. In the end he was forced into ceding that responsibility to Yeltsin who was uncannily similar to Boris Johnson in his single minded pursuit of power no matter how it could be attained. Like the populist he was, Yeltsin made a name for himself by grandstanding but like Gorbachev, he had no actual plan to stabilise Russia and instead sold off the country's assets to the first bidders, whilst simultaneously capitulating to the FSB (the only outfit that retained any structural rigidity in an anarchic country).
So, in the West we look back on Gorbachev as a hero of liberalism. I'm far from convinced he was anything of the sort. I don't think he was to blame for Russia's subsequent collapse as much as Yeltsin but he certainly opened the doors to the anarchy that was to follow. David Remnick is my favourite commentator on Russia and the fall of the USSR. If you want an insight into how and why Gorbachev is held in such low regard by Russians, you could do worse than reading this article from 1996 - it's long and maybe the final section suffices as a summary but it adds some colour to the real world deprivations that tens of millions suffered post the USSR collapse and how they couldn't help but compare it to the relative stability of the Soviet days. It doesn't matter how we paint the attempted advances in liberalism if the reality on the ground in Russia was a loss of life savings, an increase in criminality, the loss of free education and a struggle to put any food on the table. Gorbachev has to take his share of the blame for causing this abject collapse in living standards but I don't think he ever planned for the USSR to collapse in the first place.0 -
Seems to be a common occurrence with Russian citizens falling from high up places.ShootersHillGuru said:The chairman of Russia's Lukoil oil giant, Ravil Maganov, has died after falling from a hospital window in Moscow, reports say.The company confirmed his death but said only that Maganov, 67, had "passed away following a severe illness".Russian media said he was being treated at Moscow's Central Clinical Hospital and died of his injuries.Maganov is the latest of a number of high-profile business executives to die in mysterious circumstances.
How unlucky1 -
The Czechs taught them how to do it. Over the ages many important people ended their lives in most unfortunate falls from a high window of Prague Castle. They have a word for it : “defenestrace”. If you speak some French you’ll recognise the French word for “window” in there. I’ve never understood how the French word got in there, because the Czech word for window is “okno”. Anyway, Mr Lukoil has been “de-windowed”…kentaddick said:
Seems to be a common occurrence with Russian citizens falling from high up places.ShootersHillGuru said:The chairman of Russia's Lukoil oil giant, Ravil Maganov, has died after falling from a hospital window in Moscow, reports say.The company confirmed his death but said only that Maganov, 67, had "passed away following a severe illness".Russian media said he was being treated at Moscow's Central Clinical Hospital and died of his injuries.Maganov is the latest of a number of high-profile business executives to die in mysterious circumstances.
How unlucky0 -
Just on a point of historical accuracy, Walesa was released from jail in 1982. Gorbachev wasn't appointed as leader until 1985 (in 1982 he was largely responsible for agriculture).seth plum said:When Polish leader Jaruzelski banned Solidarity, and detained Walesa, but then was obliged to release him into a state in rebellious turmoil against the communist regime, the huge phenomena was the response of Gorbachev, which was no military response.In 1956 in Hungary, in 1968 in ‘Czechoslovakia’ resistance to Communist authority was met by Russian forces entering those countries, like Putin in Ukraine. However Gorbachev decided not to do the same in Poland, which gave confidence to people like Vaclev Havel in Prague to push for change.
In 1977 playwright Tom Stoppard wrote ‘Professional Foul’, a great play exploring football and resistance in Russian dominated Eastern Europe. I think that work of art had some influence. Havel was a playwright.
I find it interesting and inspiring that Zelensky in Ukraine has emerged from the creative world.
It is no surprise that oppressive regimes are afraid of creativity, look at Ai Wei Wei in China, and of course over here the Tories want to excoriate creative subjects from the school curriculum.0 -
I'm sure you will find a few more now to keep you busy. Anyway, that aside, I would like to thank you for moderating the site, I appreciate doing it isn't easy. Can you let me know when the HoC will reopen so I can comply with your instructions?AddicksAddict said:
Well, that’s one. Not exactly “a number” in the sense you were meaning. However, much as I agree with her/him, she/he can save it for the elsewhere, too.SporadicAddick said:
Let’s start with wightaddicts comment at 9.30.AddicksAddict said:
Don’t see anyone else making the same reference as you so I’ll stick to putting the boot in to you, metaphorically of course.SporadicAddick said:
Mmm. I’m thinking you might need to reply with the same comment to a number of other posts on this thread as well. Good luck and enjoy.AddicksAddict said:
Save it for the political area.SporadicAddick said:Spookily I was in Reykjavik today looking at the building where he and Reagan met in 1986. Until recently we could have traced the end of the Cold War back to that meeting. Recent events have reversed that.
He inadvertently oversaw the end of the USSR - it wasn’t his goal or ambition. Despite the rewriting of history he was a Marxist-Leninist to the core, albeit with a broader perspective on international engagement.We should be grateful that he f*cked up the scourge of communism for a short period at least.
RIP.0 -
I'm sure it's a total coincidence, but a 67 year old chairman of a oil company who was outspoken against putin and the war with Ukraine suddenly fell from a six story hospital window and died. It was the same hospital as Gorbachev died in the next day...0
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Your dates are true. However the release of Walesa from jail continued his Polish campaign into the future, it did not mark a precise point in time that might have obliged Russia to react straight away.SporadicAddick said:
Just on a point of historical accuracy, Walesa was released from jail in 1982. Gorbachev wasn't appointed as leader until 1985 (in 1982 he was largely responsible for agriculture).seth plum said:When Polish leader Jaruzelski banned Solidarity, and detained Walesa, but then was obliged to release him into a state in rebellious turmoil against the communist regime, the huge phenomena was the response of Gorbachev, which was no military response.In 1956 in Hungary, in 1968 in ‘Czechoslovakia’ resistance to Communist authority was met by Russian forces entering those countries, like Putin in Ukraine. However Gorbachev decided not to do the same in Poland, which gave confidence to people like Vaclev Havel in Prague to push for change.
In 1977 playwright Tom Stoppard wrote ‘Professional Foul’, a great play exploring football and resistance in Russian dominated Eastern Europe. I think that work of art had some influence. Havel was a playwright.
I find it interesting and inspiring that Zelensky in Ukraine has emerged from the creative world.
It is no surprise that oppressive regimes are afraid of creativity, look at Ai Wei Wei in China, and of course over here the Tories want to excoriate creative subjects from the school curriculum.
Russia still saw Jaruselski in charge, and he wasn't the immediate threat that Dubcek for example was seen to be during the Prague spring.1 -
seth plum said:
Your dates are true. However the release of Walesa from jail continued his Polish campaign into the future, it did not mark a precise point in time that might have obliged Russia to react straight away.SporadicAddick said:
Just on a point of historical accuracy, Walesa was released from jail in 1982. Gorbachev wasn't appointed as leader until 1985 (in 1982 he was largely responsible for agriculture).seth plum said:When Polish leader Jaruzelski banned Solidarity, and detained Walesa, but then was obliged to release him into a state in rebellious turmoil against the communist regime, the huge phenomena was the response of Gorbachev, which was no military response.In 1956 in Hungary, in 1968 in ‘Czechoslovakia’ resistance to Communist authority was met by Russian forces entering those countries, like Putin in Ukraine. However Gorbachev decided not to do the same in Poland, which gave confidence to people like Vaclev Havel in Prague to push for change.
In 1977 playwright Tom Stoppard wrote ‘Professional Foul’, a great play exploring football and resistance in Russian dominated Eastern Europe. I think that work of art had some influence. Havel was a playwright.
I find it interesting and inspiring that Zelensky in Ukraine has emerged from the creative world.
It is no surprise that oppressive regimes are afraid of creativity, look at Ai Wei Wei in China, and of course over here the Tories want to excoriate creative subjects from the school curriculum.
Russia still saw Jaruselski in charge, and he wasn't the immediate threat that Dubcek for example was seen to be during the Prague spring.
Also, the period from Walesa's release from jail through to Gorbachev's appointment as President (General Secretary) coincided with two (one very short lived) weak Soviet leaders in Andropov and then Chernenko.
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We have the word 'defenestration' too, though it's little used as our troublemakers tend to be assassinated by the daily mail instead.PragueAddick said:
The Czechs taught them how to do it. Over the ages many important people ended their lives in most unfortunate falls from a high window of Prague Castle. They have a word for it : “defenestrace”. If you speak some French you’ll recognise the French word for “window” in there. I’ve never understood how the French word got in there, because the Czech word for window is “okno”. Anyway, Mr Lukoil has been “de-windowed”…kentaddick said:
Seems to be a common occurrence with Russian citizens falling from high up places.ShootersHillGuru said:The chairman of Russia's Lukoil oil giant, Ravil Maganov, has died after falling from a hospital window in Moscow, reports say.The company confirmed his death but said only that Maganov, 67, had "passed away following a severe illness".Russian media said he was being treated at Moscow's Central Clinical Hospital and died of his injuries.Maganov is the latest of a number of high-profile business executives to die in mysterious circumstances.
How unlucky1 -
Why isn’t this a RIP thread?
I have nothing but complete admiration for him and what he achieved and utter contempt for his eventual successor.
RIP a man who made all of our lives safer (if in part temporarily).1 -
There is a question of why SHOULD Russia do things the way we want them done? They have every right to expect us to do things their way. Looking at the end of Western Civilization being played out in our very own lifetimes it begs the question ~ what in our Western Civilization should Russia "work together" with us on?ken_shabby said:Every now and then you get a politician who goes against the populist narrative to improve things. Whatever the motive, Gorbachev tried to do this. I remember how things changed at the tail end of the eighties when it actually seemed as if Russia would join th rest of the world working together rather than against. The contrast with today could barely be more stark.
RIP
Gorbachev was very popular here. For obvious reasons..Loathed in Russia. I quite liked him. The perception I had of him at any rate. May he rest in eternal peace..0 -
Speaking to Russians here in London in previous years they speak of prosperity, freedom and identity in Russia and are very happy with post-Soviet Russia.ShootersHillGuru said:
Absolutely. His true legacy lays outside of his own country rather than within. What an enormous shame that Russia is now not as free, modern and forward thinking as the other countries that escaped from the USSR.PragueAddick said:well, my Twitter is full of the most amazing dissonance of views from intelligent coherent people, depending largely on how far East of London they are from. And I can see where they are coming from.
Nevertheless as I replied to one of the strongest critics, I am writing this in a cool little Prague cafe, surrounded mainly by young people, talking about the same things, making the same plans, as their counterparts in London, Amsterdam, or Stockholm. And all of that, including my own presence, is thanks to Mikhail Gorbachev. Absolutely no question.RIP a true global statesman. Probably the most significant of my lifetime.
Russia clearly has, under Putin, a questionable version of democracy with Litvinyenko, Navalny et al but it cannot be reasonably said that Putin wants to recreate the Soviet Union. Since 1990, they have built 30,000 churches. This is as far removed from Stalinist Soviet misery as one could imagine.
I am sure this war grieved Gorbachev greatly in his final days. It is brutal and unnecessary and I hear few leaders clamouring for peace.
Rest in peace Mikhail Gorbachev.0 -
To be fair, he was trying to do something similar to what China has done but it failed and in the vacuum facism found a home. He seemed like a decent enough man considering, but he didn't want the Soviet Union to fall and wasn't trying to make that happen.0
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Because the OP apparently does not wish him that. A take which surprised me from HI, but there we areIAgree said:Why isn’t this a RIP thread?
I have nothing but complete admiration for him and what he achieved and utter contempt for his eventual successor.
RIP a man who made all of our lives safer (if in part temporarily).0 -
Loved Russia so much, had a tattoo of it on his head.
RIP0 -
The desire to jump out of windows is indeed a severe illness, especially if they are high ones. As is criticising Putin. A severe illness that normally results in death.ShootersHillGuru said:The chairman of Russia's Lukoil oil giant, Ravil Maganov, has died after falling from a hospital window in Moscow, reports say.The company confirmed his death but said only that Maganov, 67, had "passed away following a severe illness".Russian media said he was being treated at Moscow's Central Clinical Hospital and died of his injuries.Maganov is the latest of a number of high-profile business executives to die in mysterious circumstances.
How unlucky0
