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Where does the 8 million go each year?
Mendonca In Asdas
Posts: 22,658
It’s been mentioned before that we make a 8 million loss each year, (maybe why we haven’t spent a fee in the transfer window) I’d love to know how much is spent on player wages, signing on fees, agents and bonuses, and how do we reduce our losses, some big transfer sales I guess (guess what we’ll be doing in January).
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Is it our business?0
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https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01788466/filing-history
It's all here, in the public demain. I really don't understand why something that is a matter of public record is disputed and argued over so much.7 -
Player wages predominantly off the top of my head0
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Fag packet maths.kinveachyaddick said:Player wages predominantly off the top of my head
Total costs about 16 million (of which about 9 million is staff costs). Income is about 8 million.
Loss is about 8 million.
So if everyone, including the players, worked for free we might break even.1 -
Even I know this one. The club has financial commitments over and beyond what the business brings in. That shortfall needs to be met by the owner sticking his hand in his pocket.3
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Frankly as a Finance Director, these accounts frighten the life out of meCafc43v3r said:https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01788466/filing-history
It's all here, in the public demain. I really don't understand why something that is a matter of public record is disputed and argued over so much.4 -
7 million pounds on stationery and computers seems a lot though!Cafc43v3r said:
Fag packet maths.kinveachyaddick said:Player wages predominantly off the top of my head
Total costs about 16 million (of which about 9 million is staff costs). Income is about 8 million.
Loss is about 8 million.
So if everyone, including the players, worked for free we might break even.0 -
Where does the money go in football ?
Same for all clubs - players and agents.1 -
Can you explain the almost 7m? I can understand some of this, but we’re just given an administrative number just of 16m, and staff costs around 9m. I can see some obvious outgoings for tax, lease, interest and some odd bit, but the don’t come close to the 7m.kimbo said:
Frankly as a Finance Director, these accounts frighten the life out of meCafc43v3r said:https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01788466/filing-history
It's all here, in the public demain. I really don't understand why something that is a matter of public record is disputed and argued over so much.I’m wondering how much of that was exceptional expense related to the takeover and charged back to the accounts.0 -
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Can't believe we spent £500k on buying copies of Addicks to Victory1
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Cafc43v3r said:https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01788466/filing-history
It's all here, in the public demain. I really don't understand why something that is a matter of public record is disputed and argued over so much.
Could you break them down then? As an expert.
Taking into account the movements for two takeovers during the period, the non cash movements like depreciation and amortisation etc.
Obviously accounts also through Covid so ticket income of £200K not representative of this year.
I see TS loan £10.5M and the club had +£3M in cash on balance sheet yet you state categorically in another thread that TS has put £20M in. Where is that other £9.5M - all since June '21? Seems a lot when we had £3M cash and we're tightening our belts.
Would love to get a bit more analysis as I am certainly no expert and these accounts are not simple and show a very unusual trading year.
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Up my nose1
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The 20 million I quoted was the 8 for the trading year these accounts detail which covers the 20/21 season. Thomas said the loss was about the same last year, we won't actually get the accounts until early next year, plus the 4 he predicts for this season.Athletico Charlton said:Cafc43v3r said:https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/01788466/filing-history
It's all here, in the public demain. I really don't understand why something that is a matter of public record is disputed and argued over so much.
Could you break them down then? As an expert.
Taking into account the movements for two takeovers during the period, the non cash movements like depreciation and amortisation etc.
Obviously accounts also through Covid so ticket income of £200K not representative of this year.
I see TS loan £10.5M and the club had +£3M in cash on balance sheet yet you state categorically in another thread that TS has put £20M in. Where is that other £9.5M - all since June '21? Seems a lot when we had £3M cash and we're tightening our belts.
Would love to get a bit more analysis as I am certainly no expert and these accounts are not simple and show a very unusual trading year.
It says that the depreciation and amortisation isn't included in the 16 million.
I am not an expert, but if you go to the 18/19 or 17/18 the operating loss is pretty similar. Apart from the TV/gate money for the play offs. Airman has actually posted a simplified graphic on a different thread today.1 -
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It’s really important to look at this stuff year on year and not just in any particular year. Unfortunately, 20/21 isn’t very useful because 1) there was almost no ticket revenue and 2) the transfer of the leasehold assets by Thomas to Roland distorts the figures.
As per the other thread, the operating loss was £7.2m in 2013/14, and £7.8m in 2014/15. It all went a bit bonkers in 15/16.0 -
Wonder why...0
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For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:0 -
we can all go on about where the money goes. but what all this proves is we need a billionaire owner who can afford the losses and more to get us out of this division and have a chance of staying in the championship.
otherwise we will be back to soon and wondering if we will have a club to support.0 -
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Centrally negotiated contracts, including TV contracts and EFL sponsorship deals, plus Premier League solidarity payments.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:
In 20/21 that figure included compensation for loss of ticket revenue, hence the unusual figure of £4.7m in L1.
The 2018/19 matchday revenue is inflated by play-off final income.2 -
Thank youAirman Brown said:
Centrally negotiated contracts, including TV contracts and EFL sponsorship deals, plus Premier League solidarity payments.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:
In 20/21 that figure included compensation for loss of ticket revenue, hence the unusual figure of £4.7m in L1.
The 2018/19 matchday revenue is inflated by play-off final income.0 -
I know the 21/22 loss, assumed to be £(8)M, isn't shown above as it's yet to be published, but I'm presuming it will include the compensation payments made in respect of Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Marshall, and the fees paid for Kirk, Fraser and Aneke as partially offset by the Burstow money in as all those transactions happened after June 21 but before July 22.Airman Brown said:
Centrally negotiated contracts, including TV contracts and EFL sponsorship deals, plus Premier League solidarity payments.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:
In 20/21 that figure included compensation for loss of ticket revenue, hence the unusual figure of £4.7m in L1.
The 2018/19 matchday revenue is inflated by play-off final income.
If it doesn't, surely the Operating loss will be more than £(8)M and if Turnover was £10M as we've been told, Central Income for 2022 must have remained at close to the outlier inflated 2021 figure?0 -
On agent fees we spent £195k in 21/22, the sixth highest in L1.
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/football/news/sheffield-wednesday-agent-fees-23558847.ampEight highest League One spenders on agents' fees 2021/22:
- Sheffield Wednesday - £796,224
- Ipswich Town - £779,739
- Wigan Athletic - £355,774
- Sunderland - £310,244
- Wycombe Wanderers - £258,952
- Charlton Athletic - £195,079
- Portsmouth - £194,124
- Oxford United - £171,934
For comparison to the Prem and Champ:
https://www.90min.com/posts/agent-fees-fa-figures-paid-premier-league-efl-clubs-2021-22/ampMan City were the biggest spenders at £35m, Hull the lowest at £243k.1 -
Just scraped into the play off spots 😎Scoham said:On agent fees we spent £195k in 21/22, the sixth highest in L1.
https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/football/news/sheffield-wednesday-agent-fees-23558847.ampEight highest League One spenders on agents' fees 2021/22:
- Sheffield Wednesday - £796,224
- Ipswich Town - £779,739
- Wigan Athletic - £355,774
- Sunderland - £310,244
- Wycombe Wanderers - £258,952
- Charlton Athletic - £195,079
- Portsmouth - £194,124
- Oxford United - £171,934
For comparison to the Prem and Champ:
https://www.90min.com/posts/agent-fees-fa-figures-paid-premier-league-efl-clubs-2021-22/ampMan City were the biggest spenders at £35m, Hull the lowest at £243k.
I was talking to a Sheff Wed fan the other day who reckons the current owner and his family businesses have ploughed over £200M into the Club. Haven't they done well! They seem to operate in a parallel universe finance wise.0 -
The transfer fees don't feature in the operating loss as shown above, hence player trading is shown as a separate line.swordfish said:
I know the 21/22 loss, assumed to be £(8)M, isn't shown above as it's yet to be published, but I'm presuming it will include the compensation payments made in respect of Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Marshall, and the fees paid for Kirk, Fraser and Aneke as partially offset by the Burstow money in as all those transactions happened after June 21 but before July 22.Airman Brown said:
Centrally negotiated contracts, including TV contracts and EFL sponsorship deals, plus Premier League solidarity payments.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:
In 20/21 that figure included compensation for loss of ticket revenue, hence the unusual figure of £4.7m in L1.
The 2018/19 matchday revenue is inflated by play-off final income.
If it doesn't, surely the Operating loss will be more than £(8)M and if Turnover was £10M as we've been told, Central Income for 2022 must have remained at close to the outlier inflated 2021 figure?
There is a further complication as fees PAID are written down over the duration of a contract. So for example if Charlton signed Charlie Kirk on a three-year contract for £500,000, a third of that amount is written off the balance sheet each year rather than being shown as a full cost in one year. In effect, each year the annualised cost of acquiring players (including agent fees) is deducted from the club's assets until that value has expired. (This has nothing to do with their wages, which are included in the operating loss.)
Fees RECEIVED are booked in year and not over several years, the principle being that the value of the incoming asset is utilised over the period of the contract, whereas a player who is sold is gone. There are then adjustments made where players leave in contract.
Assuming there was no cost of acquiring Burstow, the entire fee payable should be included in the 2021/22 player trading, but only a third (or whatever) of Kirk's acquisition cost.
I'm sure that's clear as mud and I'm not an accountant, so I defer to those who are.
In short, compensation yes, transfer fees no, in the operating loss. The compensation for Adkins/Jackson will likely appear as an "exceptional item" but I wouldn't expect it to go far beyond £500k in total.
Interesting question as to whether the compensation for Garner/Marshall will be treated like a transfer fee and whether their contracts are deemed to be assets in the same way as the players. My guess is not. But I don't think we're talking significant money in transfer terms anyway.
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Your explanation couldn't be any clearer to me @Airman Brown, so thank you for that.Airman Brown said:
The transfer fees don't feature in the operating loss as shown above, hence player trading is shown as a separate line.swordfish said:
I know the 21/22 loss, assumed to be £(8)M, isn't shown above as it's yet to be published, but I'm presuming it will include the compensation payments made in respect of Adkins, Jackson, Garner and Marshall, and the fees paid for Kirk, Fraser and Aneke as partially offset by the Burstow money in as all those transactions happened after June 21 but before July 22.Airman Brown said:
Centrally negotiated contracts, including TV contracts and EFL sponsorship deals, plus Premier League solidarity payments.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:
For someone of little understanding. What is ‘central income’ ?Airman Brown said:
In 20/21 that figure included compensation for loss of ticket revenue, hence the unusual figure of £4.7m in L1.
The 2018/19 matchday revenue is inflated by play-off final income.
If it doesn't, surely the Operating loss will be more than £(8)M and if Turnover was £10M as we've been told, Central Income for 2022 must have remained at close to the outlier inflated 2021 figure?
There is a further complication as fees PAID are written down over the duration of a contract. So for example if Charlton signed Charlie Kirk on a three-year contract for £500,000, a third of that amount is written off the balance sheet each year rather than being shown as a full cost in one year. In effect, each year the annualised cost of acquiring players (including agent fees) is deducted from the club's assets until that value has expired. (This has nothing to do with their wages, which are included in the operating loss.)
Fees RECEIVED are booked in year and not over several years, the principle being that the value of the incoming asset is utilised over the period of the contract, whereas a player who is sold is gone. There are then adjustments made where players leave in contract.
Assuming there was no cost of acquiring Burstow, the entire fee payable should be included in the 2021/22 player trading, but only a third (or whatever) of Kirk's acquisition cost.
I'm sure that's clear as mud and I'm not an accountant, so I defer to those who are.
In short, compensation yes, transfer fees no, in the operating loss.0 -
We had a player on £16k a week (not currently).10% of our annual loss each year on one guy.None of which goes back into football.A bad player on good wages - sits tight
A good player on bad wages - asks for more or leaves.It has to implode eventually, probably when the game runs out of rich guys with vanity projects.As the bookies say when they get a big losing punter - he/she will either wise-up or go skint.1
