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Insulating old houses

edited February 2023 in Not Sports Related
I've been insulating my old house Kent peg brick and timber frame lately, mainly loft, and attempting to curtail some of the drafts. Fencing will have to wait until spring..

I've been going to 300mm, replacing very old 100mm and doing the top up layer. There was a fair bit of 100mm in the eaves but I'm not convinced that makes any difference except perhaps for sound, in what are 'cold' lofts. 

The walls on the ground floor are pretty thick three course brick, 1st floor is timber frame and who knows what kind of insulation or material behind Kent Peg.

Its quite a challenge on an old property, but thats what we signed up for. I expect the huge investment of redoing the tiles behind timber and insulation is the only real answer, but I might look at the stairwell which seems to be a  main source of cold air.

some pics to follow, one in particular shows an internal gutter
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Comments



  • For those of you missing the fencing - there may be some happening in spring.. 🤭
  •  Nice one Raz, you should notice a difference adding that top layer. It seems to be the norm now, the rule of thumb is if you can see the rafters you don’t have enough insulation 
  • @razil said : I've been insulating my old house Kent peg brick and timber frame lately, mainly loft, and attempting to curtail some of the drafts. Fencing will have to wait until spring..

    Why would you be insulating your fence?
  • edited February 2023
    Do you have a front gate raz?
    If so always remember to keep it shut……I’ve found there’s a hell of a draught comes through them.
    Every little bit helps.👋🏼👋🏼👋🏼
  • @razil said : I've been insulating my old house Kent peg brick and timber frame lately, mainly loft, and attempting to curtail some of the drafts. Fencing will have to wait until spring..

    Why would you be insulating your fence?
    En-garde! You may have picked up the wrong end of the stick - he is surely referring to time to donate to his sports hobby 😉
  • The insulation should be pulled back from the eaves to allow an air flow
  • I would assume your loft hatch opens into the loft space? It would be better for excluding the draft if it was drop down
  • edited February 2023
    I am putting some raised boarding in for storage in one area of it, I wonder how much insulation the boarding itself represents? Will be on top of the 300mm tho
  • @razil said : I've been insulating my old house Kent peg brick and timber frame lately, mainly loft, and attempting to curtail some of the drafts. Fencing will have to wait until spring..

    Why would you be insulating your fence?
    To prevent piles when sitting on it?
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  • We seem to have very similar properties and identical to do lists. At least you're cracking on rather than pontificating like me!
  • I tend to buy lots of materials leave them in the loft and then pontificate or have various gos at it... horrible stuff to handle, cover skin, mask and goggles (which fog up immediately) so two of my three loft areas are between 1/3 and 2/3 done :)
  • I would go with

    Your render is loose
    Your chimney stack is crooked
    Your windows are draughty
    Your stairs are creaky

    Oh sorry, insulating not insulting
  • You'll likely find the 1st floor has no insulation or old hay. Unless of course someone has attended to in recent times. I'd definitely sort that, heat rises as well all know so will be getting up to the 1st and out pretty darn quick!
  • Rob7Lee said:
    You'll likely find the 1st floor has no insulation or old hay. Unless of course someone has attended to in recent times. I'd definitely sort that, heat rises as well all know so will be getting up to the 1st and out pretty darn quick!
    Heat doesn’t rise. Warm air does 
  • Just an observation but it looks to me like your roof membrane is not breathable. If so just make sure that you have decent ventilation in the loft space. We owned an old cottage once and had big problems with condensation on the inside of the membrane. It was dripping!
  • I think the gaping big hole where the gutter enters may assist
  • edited February 2023
    I keep thinking the thread title is, 'Insulting' old houses. 

    "Your mother was a maisonette and your father was a caravan!"
  • edited February 2023
    Rob7Lee said:
    You'll likely find the 1st floor has no insulation or old hay. Unless of course someone has attended to in recent times. I'd definitely sort that, heat rises as well all know so will be getting up to the 1st and out pretty darn quick!
    Heat doesn’t rise. Warm air does 
    Thanks for that, I never knew  ;) 

    Insulating old properties becomes a balance, the costs sometimes outweigh the benefits even with todays energy costs. I don't know how @Razil heats his home, but making sure that's as efficient as possible as well as sensible insulation is probably the best you can do. My new boiler is 3-4 times more efficient (less cost to run) than my old one. To achieve the same in a very old property by insulation alone would be likely cost prohibitive.
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  • Doing the same on our renovation, timber framed gaff up in Worcestershire, huge difference when we put over 400mm insulation in old loft space, the new build extension across the back sorted the draughts and heat retention out that side of the house and internally boarded and insulated weather facing side, supplemented with a couple of wood burners and a new efficient CH and hot water system. The original timber framed walls were old oak timbers and single bricks on edge, not the most efficient to retain heat. Work in progress but we are getting there & still kept most of the original oak beams, the old house dates back to 1652, remarkably it wasn’t listed, with the piggery and scullery extension going on in 1904, now a bedroom and part of the extended kitchen. Don’t have an internal gutter to boast about  but do have a soil pipe through the hallway on display, it will be changed.

    Our previous old cobb wall thatch place in Dorset took me 23 years to renovate, consequence of a 5 year plan going awry with a young family and a busy work work life and occasional weekends away back to London watching our mob,  my gawd  that was a very cold place in winter to start with, we were limited to do what we could do as it was listed, always bemused me that we were not able to fit double glazing, in the end we brazenly fitted new hand made oak, double glazed  windows to the Nth side, that totally matched the old softwood windows that were falling apart, we had ivy growing in the house through one of the frames. 


     Best of luck with your renovations @ Razil. 
  • Looks beautiful!
    My house is a shambles for heat retention. It's a brick and chalk terraced cottage built in 1797 so a new build by your standards. It has a 1940s rear kitchen extension with a big area of single glazing, and a 1970s flat roof loft conversion with only token insulation, very chilly on cold nights. I've replaced the 48 sq ft of rotten wooden window with double glazing but it's still not cosy. The boiler is new, the central heating is pretty efficient and there's a wood burner that gets a lot of use, but hot water bottles are still the answer!
  • IdleHans said:
    Looks beautiful!
    My house is a shambles for heat retention. It's a brick and chalk terraced cottage built in 1797 so a new build by your standards. It has a 1940s rear kitchen extension with a big area of single glazing, and a 1970s flat roof loft conversion with only token insulation, very chilly on cold nights. I've replaced the 48 sq ft of rotten wooden window with double glazing but it's still not cosy. The boiler is new, the central heating is pretty efficient and there's a wood burner that gets a lot of use, but hot water bottles are still the answer!
    Being that old is it listed?
  • No, it's just in a conservation area. There are 80 or so listed buildings here of far more architectural merit that date back to the 16th and 17th century. Mine's a shed by comparison.
  • Doing the same on our renovation, timber framed gaff up in Worcestershire, huge difference when we put over 400mm insulation in old loft space, the new build extension across the back sorted the draughts and heat retention out that side of the house and internally boarded and insulated weather facing side, supplemented with a couple of wood burners and a new efficient CH and hot water system. The original timber framed walls were old oak timbers and single bricks on edge, not the most efficient to retain heat. Work in progress but we are getting there & still kept most of the original oak beams, the old house dates back to 1652, remarkably it wasn’t listed, with the piggery and scullery extension going on in 1904, now a bedroom and part of the extended kitchen. Don’t have an internal gutter to boast about  but do have a soil pipe through the hallway on display, it will be changed.

    Our previous old cobb wall thatch place in Dorset took me 23 years to renovate, consequence of a 5 year plan going awry with a young family and a busy work work life and occasional weekends away back to London watching our mob,  my gawd  that was a very cold place in winter to start with, we were limited to do what we could do as it was listed, always bemused me that we were not able to fit double glazing, in the end we brazenly fitted new hand made oak, double glazed  windows to the Nth side, that totally matched the old softwood windows that were falling apart, we had ivy growing in the house through one of the frames. 


     Best of luck with your renovations @ Razil. 
    Cheers

    My place is listed, part of one of the fireplaces includes large stones from Leeds Priory demolished during Henry VIII time. We've restored some of the lathe and plaster but the vandalism of previous owners would make your eyes water, including a lot of oak flooring replaced with chip board.

    We've replaced some of the old fashioned radiators with modern convectors, and gradually putting electronic trvs in.

    The boiler is a bit under spec and isn't a combi, but we have an immersion that is both electric and gas (via a hot pipe off the boiler). I'm still looking at what level of insulation we can achieve before deciding on a replacement and considering an ASHP.

    Also not sure what is most efficient for the water. I've heard that combis being instant aren't as cost effective as system boilers because they have to blast so much heat for the instant hot water, but it probably depends how much its used.

    The biggest problem elsewhere I have are trying to make the kitchen retain heat due to unfathomable drafts, and probably needs a new bigger rad as we don't use the aga so much; and the very drafty stair well which funnels cold air downwards, I suspect due to poor insulation and no rads. That is going to be a costly job to remove the kp and insulate, although the first floor isn't cold so I could just focus on the stair well somehow. The previous owners put William Morris wallpaper on and elsewhere, and the wife isn't keen for me to go over the top of it.. 




  • My 2c on heating and hot water having been refurbishing a very new compared to you guys (1969!) property.

    Radiators, although relatively expensive go for aluminium, the heat they pump out and and speed they do so is ridiculous. They also hold much less water making the system far more efficient.

    Got most of mine from here via a local plumbers merchant as get around 35% off their list price;

    www.theradiatorcompany.co.uk

    Always make sure you check what BTU you need for each room and Radiator.

    I came to the conclusion that ASHP aren't quite up to the job yet, my mate has one and you can't ever really turn the heating off in winter as it takes too long to warm up, that's in a very modern Huff Haus.

    I looked at a combi but with a large house with a number of bathrooms I decided against, went for a pressurised system (so no more tanks in the loft) with a Vaillant Ecotec system boiler and a 340l ish water tank, it can run on immersion but not bothered yet, may try in the summer as just fitted a T-Smart controller. The tank is very well insulated these days, retains the heat very well, once when I accidentally turned the timer off we still had hot water for 2 days before I noticed, the tanks in the garage.

    I run it all via Hive controller and thermostat (then apple home) which if you like smart home is very good.

    Having changed all the system I now pay a lot less than I did a bit over a year ago for Gas, I reckon with price increases I'm saving at least 2/3rds compared to the old system and boiler which would be north of £750 a month now.
  • I use Hive/Tuya/zigabee with Alexa. I hear what you're saying with heatpumps, I'm still cautious on that.

    I don't know how efficient my boiler is, however if I get the insulation right and upgrade the rads, I'm wondering if it needs changing as long as its relatively modern.
  • razil said:
    I use Hive/Tuya/zigabee with Alexa. I hear what you're saying with heatpumps, I'm still cautious on that.

    I don't know how efficient my boiler is, however if I get the insulation right and upgrade the rads, I'm wondering if it needs changing as long as its relatively modern.
    It's definitely a balance between cost and performance. I would look at the radiators, although they cost a lot more, the heat they pump out and the fact there is 5x less water in the system to heat make them so much more efficient. Also if you can insulate the pipes to them.

    Which boiler do you have?

    Although most of my house is 'smart' I went for just standard Drayton TRV's in the end as all I read is people with issues with the current smart one's (generally Hive but others too) and having balanced and set them I generally rarely touch them now.
  • razil said:
    Doing the same on our renovation, timber framed gaff up in Worcestershire, huge difference when we put over 400mm insulation in old loft space, the new build extension across the back sorted the draughts and heat retention out that side of the house and internally boarded and insulated weather facing side, supplemented with a couple of wood burners and a new efficient CH and hot water system. The original timber framed walls were old oak timbers and single bricks on edge, not the most efficient to retain heat. Work in progress but we are getting there & still kept most of the original oak beams, the old house dates back to 1652, remarkably it wasn’t listed, with the piggery and scullery extension going on in 1904, now a bedroom and part of the extended kitchen. Don’t have an internal gutter to boast about  but do have a soil pipe through the hallway on display, it will be changed.

    Our previous old cobb wall thatch place in Dorset took me 23 years to renovate, consequence of a 5 year plan going awry with a young family and a busy work work life and occasional weekends away back to London watching our mob,  my gawd  that was a very cold place in winter to start with, we were limited to do what we could do as it was listed, always bemused me that we were not able to fit double glazing, in the end we brazenly fitted new hand made oak, double glazed  windows to the Nth side, that totally matched the old softwood windows that were falling apart, we had ivy growing in the house through one of the frames. 


     Best of luck with your renovations @ Razil. 
    Cheers

    My place is listed, part of one of the fireplaces includes large stones from Leeds Priory demolished during Henry VIII time. We've restored some of the lathe and plaster but the vandalism of previous owners would make your eyes water, including a lot of oak flooring replaced with chip board.

    We've replaced some of the old fashioned radiators with modern convectors, and gradually putting electronic trvs in.

    The boiler is a bit under spec and isn't a combi, but we have an immersion that is both electric and gas (via a hot pipe off the boiler). I'm still looking at what level of insulation we can achieve before deciding on a replacement and considering an ASHP.

    Also not sure what is most efficient for the water. I've heard that combis being instant aren't as cost effective as system boilers because they have to blast so much heat for the instant hot water, but it probably depends how much its used.

    The biggest problem elsewhere I have are trying to make the kitchen retain heat due to unfathomable drafts, and probably needs a new bigger rad as we don't use the aga so much; and the very drafty stair well which funnels cold air downwards, I suspect due to poor insulation and no rads. That is going to be a costly job to remove the kp and insulate, although the first floor isn't cold so I could just focus on the stair well somehow. The previous owners put William Morris wallpaper on and elsewhere, and the wife isn't keen for me to go over the top of it.. 




    This was our last house in Kent.

    High Street Halling Rochester 3 bed end of terrace house - 495000

    Built c1470 and Listed Grade II* so there was virtually nothing we could do with it to make it more efficient, absolute nightmare and cost a fortune to heat. Listing sounds great but it's a pain in the rear - great house though and similar to yours, the inglenook had stone pillars taken from the old Rochester Bishop's Palace. Our place in Cheshire is a positive puppy by comparison - built in 1740 to house cows! Thankfully not listed but permitted development rights were removed when it was converted in around 1990 - but there is more I can do and have done to make it more efficient.
  • Pretty identical set up as you Rob Lee except my rads ain't aluminium.
    Basically got 4 manifolds  - hot/cold flow/return.
    Motorised attenuators on the flow with each rad being individually piped.
    Wall stat in each room controlling attenuator.
    More pipework and hard wiring, but not pumping a heating loop just individual rads as an when asked for.

    Every hot/cold outlet piped back individually also.

    Should allow for simple changeover from gas boiler to ASHP once they improve/become more efficient.

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