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Grass roots referees

edited March 2023 in General Charlton
Driving home from the game yesterday evening, I was listening to 606 on 5 live, with Savage and Sutton. They did a 606 special on the verbal and physical abuse that referees get. It was prompted by Milocovic's push on the ref at the Man Utd game.
However this was focused on youth, grass routes and semi-pro football.
They had people calling in, refs, coaches, supporters and parents, some of their stories were horrendous!
A ref was killed in Holland when he had been  reffing an amateur game,  he was attacked coming off the pitch by parents and supporters.
A 19 Yr old in Norfolk I believe,  was punched in the ribs by a coach of an amateur team and another, in Scotland, had death threats sent to him and his family after officiating at a semi-pro game.
Refs are now leaving the grass routes game in their droves, where soon there the grass routes game could cease.
I have to admit when I was coaching in both youth and senior football, it could get 'heated' but it never entered my head to physically attack a ref, and if any of players ever did or overstepped the mark, they would never have played for me again.
A lot of what is seen in the pro game filters down, so is it time that the FA/EFL, started to get serious with deterrents?
Milokovic gets a rest of season ban and a very hefty fine?
Players who surround the ref, are booked?
We take a leaf out of Rugby's book, only the Captain allowed to talk to the ref?
If players argue with a decision, FK for arguments sake, the ref moves the FK 10 yds forward and keeps doing so, if the arguing continues?
In my opinion something has to be done, or I fear grass roots referees will disappear completely.

Any thoughts?




Comments

  • Sorry to hear of your troubles @usetobunkin it is getting worse I fear mate.
  • Sorry to hear of your troubles @usetobunkin it is getting worse I fear mate.
    My experience was 20yrs ago!
  • The problem is in most cases the coaches and parents allow this behaviour to take place.
    Sometimes even joining in, when they should be actively trying to stop it.

    I thought all parents and coaches signed a declaration with the league that they would treat everyone with respect and positivity.

    The issue here is that the leagues don’t back this up, and they give little support to the referee’s when they do report abuse. With the excuse of they can’t sanction parents because their child has a right to play so, if you punish the parents you punish the child.

    Usetobunkin, that coach had a responsibility to deal with the parent, and should of asked him to leave as he was disrupting the game. If he refused then the coach should sub his child off and refuse to play him until the parent falls in line.

    If this fails then threaten to call the police to have him removed for breach of the peace or arrested under a public order offence. 

    If this happened every time a parent was being abusive or threatening then this behaviour would soon stop. Everyone one would get the message that it’s not acceptable and they would all behave themselves.

    Also, clubs should put pressure on the leagues committee to support referees and take their reports seriously and act to stamp out this behaviour. And the FA should put huge sanctions on professional players who behave badly against referees, because it’s obvious that they set the example for our kids to follow.

    That way referees would be able to learn their trade unhindered at grassroots, and the older and more experienced they become the more chance of they have of becoming a full time ref. Helping to make the standard of refereeing higher in this country.

  • I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

  • Driving home from the game yesterday evening, I was listening to 606 on 5 live, with Savage and Sutton. They did a 606 special on the verbal and physical abuse that referees get. It was prompted by Milocovic's push on the ref at the Man Utd game.
    However this was focused on youth, grass routes and semi-pro football.
    They had people calling in, refs, coaches, supporters and parents, some of their stories were horrendous!
    A ref was killed in Holland when he had been  reffing an amateur game,  he was attacked coming off the pitch by parents and supporters.
    A 19 Yr old in Norfolk I believe,  was punched in the ribs by a coach of an amateur team and another, in Scotland, had death threats sent to him and his family after officiating at a semi-pro game.
    Refs are now leaving the grass routes game in their droves, where soon there the grass routes game could cease.
    I have to admit when I was coaching in both youth and senior football, it could get 'heated' but it never entered my head to physically attack a ref, and if any of players ever did or overstepped the mark, they would never have played for me again.
    A lot of what is seen in the pro game filters down, so is it time that the FA/EFL, started to get serious with deterrents?
    Milokovic gets a rest of season ban and a very hefty fine?
    Players who surround the ref, are booked?
    We take a leaf out of Rugby's book, only the Captain allowed to talk to the ref?
    If players argue with a decision, FK for arguments sake, the ref moves the FK 10 yds forward and keeps doing so, if the arguing continues?
    In my opinion something has to be done, or I fear grass roots referees will disappear completely.

    Any thoughts?




    This topic had been flagged up weeks ago to be discussed on last nights show and was not prompted by what went on at the Utd/Fulham game. Sutton himself reffed a local youth game in Norfolk a few weeks ago for the purpose of this special 606 on Grass Roots abuse of officials. When there is no Prem at the weekend they often focus on other issues in the game like this.  
     This topic has been highlighted so many times, not only by the BBC but other media outlets. The sad thing is nothing has been done about it by the FA, and it is 100% down to them to sort it.  
  • edited March 2023
    It has been a problem in football for some time that those participating have anger management issues. Whether that be players, managers or supporters. The league my son played in and I managed in were very strict about this but I have seen others like a local Greek league where the behaviour from the sidelines was disgusting. My son is a ref and he hasn't experienced anything too unreasonable. He has had managers trying to put pressure on him but he sees it as part of the game. Ultimately, the leagues have to be very tough on it.

    I sometimes walk the dog on a Sunday and watch some of the games at the park. A couple of months ago, I saw a manager hit out at the ref. Not a punch, but the ref was young and he was a mature guy. The parents did get him away quickly and he left the area but at the end of the game as I was going home I saw him in the car park being comiserated by parents. I was tempted to tell him he was in line for a big fine and long ban and that he was a wanker but the first two he will get anyway and wankers don't know they are so there was no point. 

    I think body cams seems to be a good idea. It is pretty straightforward, cheap, technology nowadays.
  • edited March 2023
    I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    Well I have to say that if I were a manager being reffed by you, I would certainly challenge 2 on a technicality and 2 which are open to interpretation depending on intent / context.

    Let's start with the most obvious. In what circumstances can you be offside in your own half? If you can be, then I'm happy to learn something new after 25 years of playing and 45 years of watching...
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  • I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    ok I'll ask...

    surely ungentlemanly conduct (always was when I've played)
    really - I'll learn something new here then
    agreed
    pretty sure that one's been outlawed a few years now

  • edited March 2023
    I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    ok I'll ask...

    surely ungentlemanly conduct (always was when I've played)
    really - I'll learn something new here then
    agreed
    pretty sure that one's been outlawed a few years now

    Only if it distracts an opponent (which in my experience is quite rare and usually quite deliberate and obvious) though I do always ask them to try and "call a name" if I hear it
  • I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    Well I have to say that if I were a manager being reffed by you, I would certainly challenge 2 on a technicality and 2 which are open to interpretation depending on intent / context.

    Let's start with the most obvious. In what circumstances can you be offside in your own half? If you can be, then I'm happy to learn something new after 25 years of playing and 45 years of watching...
    Ball played towards a forward in an offside position (not an offence) in the opposition half who comes back into his own half to play the ball (the offside offence).

    it happened to Charlton under Karl Robinson who inevitably was going mental because the ref quite correctly allowed the opposition to take the FK from the Charlton half.
    I stand corrected...at least I'm in good company if professional managers are also ignorant of the law.

    Of course in the old days, if you were offside when the ball was played you were offside, end of the matter. Much simpler times...

    Happy to stand corrected again on the ball being played backwards...
  • edited March 2023
    I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    Well I have to say that if I were a manager being reffed by you, I would certainly challenge 2 on a technicality and 2 which are open to interpretation depending on intent / context.

    Let's start with the most obvious. In what circumstances can you be offside in your own half? If you can be, then I'm happy to learn something new after 25 years of playing and 45 years of watching...
    Ball played towards a forward in an offside position (not an offence) in the opposition half who comes back into his own half to play the ball (the offside offence).

    it happened to Charlton under Karl Robinson who inevitably was going mental because the ref quite correctly allowed the opposition to take the FK from the Charlton half.
    I stand corrected...at least I'm in good company if professional managers are also ignorant of the law.

    Of course in the old days, if you were offside when the ball was played you were offside, end of the matter. Much simpler times...

    Happy to stand corrected again on the ball being played backwards...
    Ball being played backwards to a player in an offside position is quite rare as they would have to be ahead of the ball when played backwards, but it happened to Spurs in a VaR check earlier this season. 

    Short corner routines might lead to this scenario if ball is played 'back' to the taker to create a better crossing angle (who then returns to play the ball from an offside position virtually on the goal line).

    Either way Law 11 (Offside) doesn't refer to the direction the ball is played/touched.
  • I definitely think the rugby rule of only the captain speaking to the ref is a good idea. Anyone else talks and you get penalised. I don’t understand the surrounding of the ref at the highest level anyway, pretty much everything is checked by VAR. Not sure what you do about parents, my son has played rugby since he was 6 and you still have problems, maybe not to the same extent they just add sir to the end of their abuse at the ref.
  • Nug said:
    I definitely think the rugby rule of only the captain speaking to the ref is a good idea. Anyone else talks and you get penalised. I don’t understand the surrounding of the ref at the highest level anyway, pretty much everything is checked by VAR. Not sure what you do about parents, my son has played rugby since he was 6 and you still have problems, maybe not to the same extent they just add sir to the end of their abuse at the ref.
    Completely agree and it baffles me why the relevant authorities (IFAB?) haven't got the courage to introduce it.  Show players getting booked for challenging the ref in the top leagues and it would kill it in the grassroots overnight.
  • Body cams are definitely a good idea in my opinion.

    I also think that part of the problem is that the referees at grassroots level are typically there by themselves. Younger refs, say under 20, should have a more senior person there exclusively to support them.

    Ideally at each match location there would be a senior referee overseeing all behaviour and handling complaints for all.
  • Might be a nuclear option, but how about some sort of "contract" between payers and parents and the club, or the FA regarding behaviour (if this doesn't already exist) clearly stating where the line is with behaviour (understand there is always a judgement call, football is passionate etc) and if a kid kicks off, or their parents does, they are kicked out? I'm sure eventually the penny will drop.
  • I’ve reffed junior games, where I didn’t know the names of the teams, nor the league positions and regularly got slated by parents. 
    It’s a trait I’m afraid, and despite doing my utmost to be correct and fair, spectators regularly thought I was biased or just not good enough. 
    My replies were usually:
    ”we need more refs, come and help”
    or the more profound
    ”kids can’t play organised footy unless adults give up their free time. Be grateful”

    Hats off to those that run the gauntlet every week. 

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  • I referee youth games and fortunately haven't encountered anything too unsavoury but the ignorance of the laws by inevitably the most vociferous managers/coaches is rife (I can excuse the players given their age) eg.

    "Ref you can't shout 'mine' or 'leave it'" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside in your own half" (you can)

    "Ref you can't be offside if the ball is played backwards" (you can)

    "Ref you can't tackle from behind" (you can)

    Well I have to say that if I were a manager being reffed by you, I would certainly challenge 2 on a technicality and 2 which are open to interpretation depending on intent / context.

    Let's start with the most obvious. In what circumstances can you be offside in your own half? If you can be, then I'm happy to learn something new after 25 years of playing and 45 years of watching...
    Ball played towards a forward in an offside position (not an offence) in the opposition half who comes back into his own half to play the ball (the offside offence).

    it happened to Charlton under Karl Robinson who inevitably was going mental because the ref quite correctly allowed the opposition to take the FK from the Charlton half.
    I stand corrected...at least I'm in good company if professional managers are also ignorant of the law.

    Of course in the old days, if you were offside when the ball was played you were offside, end of the matter. Much simpler times...

    Happy to stand corrected again on the ball being played backwards...
    Ball being played backwards to a player in an offside position is quite rare as they would have to be ahead of the ball when played backwards, but it happened to Spurs in a VaR check earlier this season. 

    Short corner routines might lead to this scenario if ball is played 'back' to the taker to create a better crossing angle (who then returns to play the ball from an offside position virtually on the goal line).

    Either way Law 11 (Offside) doesn't refer to the direction the ball is played/touched.
    Every day's a school day - I consider myself better educated...
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