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Kingsway Tramway Subway

AddicksAddictAddicksAddict
in Charlton International
I know it's not about trains, but it's pretty close.

We got invited to a walk and talk in the Kingsway Tramway Subway on Sunday.  A lot of you will know about the underpass at the end of Waterloo Bridge that goes under Aldwych.  That's the southern end of a tram subway that came out by Holborn station.  That end is still there but usually closed to the public.
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Comments

  • AddicksAddictAddicksAddict
    This is where the trams used to run.  It's now owned by Camden Council and they store a lot of road furniture and general tat down there.  Occasionally, there are guided walks.


  • AddicksAddictAddicksAddict
    The London Transport Museum had some posters down there that tell you a bit about it.


  • AddicksAddictAddicksAddict
    Two references to Charlton.

    Charlton Athletic FC, middle left.  Hard to read but the lighting down there wasn't great.

    The 'last tram' being burnt at a scrapyard in Charlton - obviously not the last because there are some in museums.

  • GlassHalfFullGlassHalfFull

    Maybe this works

    https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/65469/for-march51-and-all-cl-tramistas-normal-folks-should-look-away-now#latest

    From YouTube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EFfD-5VHIk

  • InspectorSandsInspectorSands
    The tracks were still there at Penhall Road three years ago, and not much has happened there since: https://charltonchampion.co.uk/2020/07/09/tracks-revealed-at-charltons-lost-last-tram-yard/ 
  • CheshireAddickCheshireAddick
    Pure charlton porn!
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  • CatfordCatCatfordCat
    At a slightly further tangent, I'm told (but haven't been to look for them) there's tram rails still visible somewhere on the Greenwich power station site - this was built by the LCC Tramways when they started electrifying the tramways, on the site of a horse tram depot. 
  • GlassHalfFullGlassHalfFull

    Greenwich power station has also been covered by Secrets of the London Underground. I will need to look at the film again but I think the rails are too wide for tram tracks and may be for the cranes that discharged the vessels bringing the station's fuel supplies up the river.

    Btw, the clue is in the name - London Transporn ....
  • GlassHalfFullGlassHalfFull

    Secrets of the London Underground - Greenwich power station

    https://uktvplay.co.uk/shows/secrets-of-the-london-underground/series-2/episode-9/6308637885112
  • RedhenryRedhenry
    Love that pic, I worked in the building on the corner of Kingsway/ Aldwych until lockdown.
  • R0TWR0TW
    When it was open as a vehicular underpass, the Royal Mail stopped allowing their vans to pass through due to theft.
    Had the opportunity to view a lot of trams up close hand at the LT Museum at Acton.
    Certainly worth a visit.

    Bit off topic, but those early double deckers that had a ticket machine/turnstile installed.
  • IsawlearyplayIsawlearyplay
    Would cycle thru daily on my way to work at Pearl Assurance building in High Holborn 1957.....
    Good memories ' almost there ' , bit of a trek from Eltham.
  • HertsseasiderHertsseasider
    Brilliant pics, thanks for posting 
  • BudingtonBudington
    edited May 2023
    AddicksAddict said:
    Two references to Charlton.

    Charlton Athletic FC, middle left.  Hard to read but the lighting down there wasn't great.

    The 'last tram' being burnt at a scrapyard in Charlton - obviously not the last because there are some in museums.

    Penhall Road for the scraping of trams I believe

    Edit: Someone already mentioned!
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  • Raith_C_ChattonellRaith_C_Chattonell
    Another subterranean site in Kingsway is the now decommissioned telephone exchange - some 60 metres underground.  

    Quite a secretive installation originally, but well known about now - Wiki gives a good overall description - Youtube provides plenty of videos - fascinating stuff.  I worked there occasionally in the 90s as a BT engineer, where an ancient frame containing a few telephone and data circuits was still operational.  The site boasted its own water supply served by an artesian well. 


  • lancashire ladlancashire lad
    what a memory, I remember them well as they terminated at the bottom of Downham Way at Grove Park. I wonder of roads like Downham Way are so wide so as to make room for the tram lines?
  • bobmunrobobmunro
    Even I'm not old enough to remember trams - but I do remember the tram rails in Beresford Square.
  • AddicksAddictAddicksAddict
    edited May 2023
    FiveGoalSummers said:
    Well, I couldn't miss adding my comments to this discussion. The Kingsway Subway closed in April 1952, when I was still very young. My mother and grandparents, who lived north of the Thames, used services 31, 33 and 35 often to visit relatives in our part of the world. Fares were cheap and the trams were favoured by those who had an aversion to travelling by tube.
       Charlton Works closed in 1959. There used to be a group from the Central Repair Depot, who stood near us on the East Terrace on match days. As for Penhall Road scrapyard, it finished its destructive work with the local trolleybuses also in 1959. Colour film exists on the internet.
       In the late thirties London Transport supplied trams from North London for match specials at the Valley. They traversed the Subway and took fans as far as Highgate, Manor House and Hackney. So well into Arsenal territory!
    All for a few pennies.
       I envy those who have had the opportunity to explore what remains of the Subway. It is a monument to London Transport's folly and to British short termism in general.







    One of the women doing the talk mentioned the two people at the top of London Transport in the '30s.  One hated trams, one was ambivalent about them, so there was very little, if any, investment and they gradually gave way to trolley buses and diesel buses.

    To be fair, there were problems with them.  Trams, and trolley buses, can't easily be diverted.  Also, as you can see in the bottom picture here, there was a 'third rail' from where the power was picked up - actually, it's a slot with the power line underneath.  That meant having to switch the trams over from overhead to underground power when they came into the centre of town, and vice versa on the way back out, so you had to have someone on duty all the time to do that switching, it being a manual process, and kids would short out the power line by dropping bits of metal down the gap.  Repairs were difficult.  Not forgetting, the gap was potentially dangerous to people wearing high heels.
  • Off_itOff_it
    Raith_C_Chattonell said:
    Another subterranean site in Kingsway is the now decommissioned telephone exchange - some 60 metres underground.  

    Quite a secretive installation originally, but well known about now - Wiki gives a good overall description - Youtube provides plenty of videos - fascinating stuff.  I worked there occasionally in the 90s as a BT engineer, where an ancient frame containing a few telephone and data circuits was still operational.  The site boasted its own water supply served by an artesian well. 


    Is that what caught fire and burned for days around the time of the Hatton Garden job?
  • usetobunkinusetobunkin
    bobmunro said:
    Even I'm not old enough to remember trams - but I do remember the tram rails in Beresford Square.
    I worked on a stall on the High pavement, when I was about 12. The older barrow boys used to load their barrow and run them down to the incinerator up a side road. 
    Me being a cocky little gobshite decided to copy them.  So I loaded my barrow and started to run it down Beresford Square and the barrow wheels got caught in the old tramlines and I couldn’t stop the F@#king thing. I came hurtling down to the copper on points duty outside the Arsenal and instead of going left I went right and ended up outside the covered in market.
  • Raith_C_ChattonellRaith_C_Chattonell
    Off_it said:
    Raith_C_Chattonell said:
    Another subterranean site in Kingsway is the now decommissioned telephone exchange - some 60 metres underground.  

    Quite a secretive installation originally, but well known about now - Wiki gives a good overall description - Youtube provides plenty of videos - fascinating stuff.  I worked there occasionally in the 90s as a BT engineer, where an ancient frame containing a few telephone and data circuits was still operational.  The site boasted its own water supply served by an artesian well. 


    Is that what caught fire and burned for days around the time of the Hatton Garden job?
    I don't know tbh although I doubt it as it is so deep. 

    I know BT has another 25 miles worth of tunnels under central London at 30 - 40 metres deep, Royal Mail has tunnels and no doubt other services have their own - come to think of it, I'm surprised sink holes haven't started to appear everywhere! :)  
  • Off_itOff_it
    Raith_C_Chattonell said:
    Off_it said:
    Raith_C_Chattonell said:
    Another subterranean site in Kingsway is the now decommissioned telephone exchange - some 60 metres underground.  

    Quite a secretive installation originally, but well known about now - Wiki gives a good overall description - Youtube provides plenty of videos - fascinating stuff.  I worked there occasionally in the 90s as a BT engineer, where an ancient frame containing a few telephone and data circuits was still operational.  The site boasted its own water supply served by an artesian well. 


    Is that what caught fire and burned for days around the time of the Hatton Garden job?
    I don't know tbh although I doubt it as it is so deep. 

    I know BT has another 25 miles worth of tunnels under central London at 30 - 40 metres deep, Royal Mail has tunnels and no doubt other services have their own - come to think of it, I'm surprised sink holes haven't started to appear everywhere! :)  
    I was once told that HM Customs & Excise (as was) had a tunnel under the Thames that led into Custom House, just along from the Tower of London. It was used, so I was told, by their undercover officers as a way of getting into the building without going through the front door and risk being spotted, with the entrance being via a non-descript building south of the water.

    It always intrigued me, but I'd largely dismissed it as probable bollocks until I read about the Tower Subway a few years ago, which pops up just along from Custom House (and so it's not inconceivable there was a separate branch into the building).

    Maybe my mate Thorpey, who worked at Custom House for a few years, wasn't telling me porkies after all?

    I love this stuff!
  • RothkoRothko
    Still one of the most short term bit of thinking to happen to London, especially south of the Thames where Trams were filling in for the lack of tubes 
  • willieduffwillieduff
    If anyone wants to venture to Derbyshire The National Tram Museum at Chrich, near Matlock is well worth a visit. It has a mile and a half of a working tram line and a fabulous sheds holding trams from all over the UK and the world.
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