Playing two formations at the same time

Callumcafc

In possession versus out of possession.

A lot has been made of the 3-5-2 formation and “putting our best attacking option at wing back” but looking at the positional heat maps from yesterday’s game tells an interesting story. 

Take a look at CBT’s heatmap where he spent the vast majority of the game stationed in Orient’s third:

This isn’t something Holden is asking of both wide men. Check out Asiimwe’s heatmap by comparison which is far more typical of a traditional full back / wing back:



Big gaps behind CBT you would think? Perhaps, but most interesting of all was looking thirdly at Terrell Thomas’ positioning yesterday. You don’t often see a centre back hugging the touchline like this:

All that is to say is maybe our formation isn’t as cut and dried as it appears at first glance. This looks far more like a 4-3-3 with CBT and Campbell either side of May & TT filling in at left back, than a 3-5-2 as seems to have been commonly accepted.

I suspect it’s to do with our in possession shape (4-3-3) vs out of possession shape (3-5-2) and against the best teams in this division, a lot is going to depend on how effective our wide players are at transitioning between winger and wing back.

Cafc43v3r

I got poo pooed for saying that was happening at Dartford, despite it actually happening in front on my very eyes.  Only difference was Roddy, not Thomas, was playing left back. 

WishIdStayedinthePub

Was discussing this at half time with a mate.  I was convinced we were switching between the two in the first half.  Not so much the second half.

Covered End

There was no way CBT played LWB yesterday.
He never got near any defensive play really.

Kap10

Callumcafc said:

In possession versus out of possession.

A lot has been made of the 3-5-2 formation and “putting our best attacking option at wing back” but looking at the positional heat maps from yesterday’s game tells an interesting story. 

Take a look at CBT’s heatmap where he spent the vast majority of the game stationed in Orient’s third:

This isn’t something Holden is asking of both wide men. Check out Asiimwe’s heatmap by comparison which is far more typical of a traditional full back / wing back:



Big gaps behind CBT you would think? Perhaps, but most interesting of all was looking thirdly at Terrell Thomas’ positioning yesterday. You don’t often see a centre back hugging the touchline like this:

All that is to say is maybe our formation isn’t as cut and dried as it appears at first glance. This looks far more like a 4-3-3 with CBT and Campbell either side of May & TT filling in at left back, than a 3-5-2 as seems to have been commonly accepted.

I suspect it’s to do with our in possession shape (4-3-3) vs out of possession shape (3-5-2) and against the best teams in this division, a lot is going to depend on how effective our wide players are at transitioning between winger and wing back.

Thanks for those, really interesting and great insights, where do you source them from?

balham red

Nice one, how about May and TC heat map? Does it backup the 4-3-3 also?

Cafc43v3r

balham red said:

Nice one, how about May and TC heat map? Does it backup the 4-3-3 also?

It's neither 433 nor 353, it is basically
R                 L
       X   X     X 
X         X  
         X X 
                    X
     X    X 

But even that's not right because they restart with a a flat back 4.  The average touch position charts won't tell you the full story either because they don't always tough the ball from restarts.

fenaddick

This is one of the things that makes TT’s case for starting stronger, the fact he can play that LCB/LB role is really important out of possession. I would imagine the first choice back 3 will be Jones, Hector, Thomas

NabySarr

Would still describe it as 3-5-2. Campbell was mostly to the left of May and on the same side as Blackett-Taylor so not in a front 3. 

I think Holden just adapted slightly after seeing Aberdeen and to keep CBT in the team by picking Thomas and telling Asiimwe to not bomb on too much. Once we have Leaburn/new striker it will be even more 3-5-2 as we will have 2 proper strikers. 

Also think an issue with this was that we were only threatening down the left hand side. It’s a good way to get CBT in the team and worked to get the win, but other times we will need a more varied attack so Edun playing and a more traditional 3-5-2 will be needed so we can threaten from both flanks.

Will be a big test next week for this system with Mason-Clark and Poku on the wing for Peterborough, probably the best pair of wingers in the league 

Callumcafc

Kap10 said:

Callumcafc said:

In possession versus out of possession.

A lot has been made of the 3-5-2 formation and “putting our best attacking option at wing back” but looking at the positional heat maps from yesterday’s game tells an interesting story. 

Take a look at CBT’s heatmap where he spent the vast majority of the game stationed in Orient’s third:

This isn’t something Holden is asking of both wide men. Check out Asiimwe’s heatmap by comparison which is far more typical of a traditional full back / wing back:



Big gaps behind CBT you would think? Perhaps, but most interesting of all was looking thirdly at Terrell Thomas’ positioning yesterday. You don’t often see a centre back hugging the touchline like this:

All that is to say is maybe our formation isn’t as cut and dried as it appears at first glance. This looks far more like a 4-3-3 with CBT and Campbell either side of May & TT filling in at left back, than a 3-5-2 as seems to have been commonly accepted.

I suspect it’s to do with our in possession shape (4-3-3) vs out of possession shape (3-5-2) and against the best teams in this division, a lot is going to depend on how effective our wide players are at transitioning between winger and wing back.

Thanks for those, really interesting and great insights, where do you source them from?

Source is sofascore.com or they also have an app you can use on your phone.

Callumcafc

balham red said:

Nice one, how about May and TC heat map? Does it backup the 4-3-3 also?

TC:

May:

sillav nitram

Very Interesting but 

https://youtu.be/sTd_73Slj3Q

NabySarr

Would also add that Thomas was actually playing left back for the last 15 minutes when we went 4-5-1 so that would have had an impact on his heatmap and probably made it look a bit more like a left back

NabySarr

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

sam3110

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

NabySarr

sam3110 said:

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

Yep i think Holden just learned from the Aberdeen game and tweaked it slightly so that we would get the best out of CBT but not be too exposed at the back

fenaddick

sam3110 said:

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

it’s the modern way of playing a 352 really, one attacking and one defensive wing back. 

fenaddick

NabySarr said:

Would also add that Thomas was actually playing left back for the last 15 minutes when we went 4-5-1 so that would have had an impact on his heatmap and probably made it look a bit more like a left back

I wasn’t at the game so curious as to if there was anything particular about Orient that might have made this happen? Edun is more of wing back than a winger as far as I know so interesting that Holden made that switch 

NabySarr

fenaddick said:

NabySarr said:

Would also add that Thomas was actually playing left back for the last 15 minutes when we went 4-5-1 so that would have had an impact on his heatmap and probably made it look a bit more like a left back

I wasn’t at the game so curious as to if there was anything particular about Orient that might have made this happen? Edun is more of wing back than a winger as far as I know so interesting that Holden made that switch 

Not that I noticed. Possibly just thought we didn’t need 2 strikers on defending a lead but yeah I’m not sure why we changed to a back 4. As we were defending a lot at the end Edun was pretty much playing like a wing back would anyway, and did look good when he got on the ball 

fenaddick

NabySarr said:

fenaddick said:

NabySarr said:

Would also add that Thomas was actually playing left back for the last 15 minutes when we went 4-5-1 so that would have had an impact on his heatmap and probably made it look a bit more like a left back

I wasn’t at the game so curious as to if there was anything particular about Orient that might have made this happen? Edun is more of wing back than a winger as far as I know so interesting that Holden made that switch 

Not that I noticed. Possibly just thought we didn’t need 2 strikers on defending a lead but yeah I’m not sure why we changed to a back 4. As we were defending a lot at the end Edun was pretty much playing like a wing back would anyway, and did look good when he got on the ball 

Thanks, thinking more I seem to remember Edun saying he could play in midfield too so maybe Holden thought he could cover that half space between TT and whoever the left sided 8 was at that point 

MuttleyCAFC

I think CBT's role is a part time wing back. By that I mean he is primarily a left winger who helps out when the team is defending. On a break, he won't be there so Thomas has to cover the position. What makes this viable is CBT can be unplayable and there is a tendancy to put more than one defender on him.

Cafc43v3r

NabySarr said:

sam3110 said:

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

Yep i think Holden just learned from the Aberdeen game and tweaked it slightly so that we would get the best out of CBT but not be too exposed at the back

We played that exact same system in the second half against Dartford, weeks before the Aberdeen game.  Obviously one that was already in the "box of tricks".

I am not sure why nonsymmetrical formations come as such a surprise.  Liverpool's great team of the late 80s, SAFs first great united team and Wengers first great team weren't symmetrical, neither was Powell's team.

wmcf123

fenaddick said:

sam3110 said:

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

it’s the modern way of playing a 352 really, one attacking and one defensive wing back. 

Yes - we did this under the guy that user to wear number 4

SuedeAdidas

It’s a twenty foot cock n balls man. 

YoungFishCosta4tune

I had assumed we were playing 4-4-2 diamond during the first half yesterday and figured Holden was holding back the 3-5-2 until we'd signed a couple more players to suit.
Regardless, on early evidence we look far more fluid than we have done in a good few seasons.

Garrymanilow

I think static formations have been a thing of the past for a while. Ever since Conte's Chelsea went 343 with a 5ft8 right back at centre back and a winger at RWB English teams have started to see the value in a formation that offers fluidity outside of the traditional player roles. Obviously Guardiola is at the peak of the formations are meaningless boom, but with lesser players you can still offer a fluid structure at lower levels. Telling CBT to stay high and Thomas to pull wider really isn't at all different to what Jackson was initially doing with Matthews at CB and Leko at RWB before the players gave up on it, though it looks like hopefully Holden is doing a bit more with the midfield to encourage control and more up front to create movement. It'll be interesting to see what we do when Edun is available to start. He doesn't have the pace of CBT but he's a capable midfielder so I imagine we'll have another plan that sees him up a bit higher than the traditional wingback. 

The important thing is that we stay fluid and dynamic though; after a little while Jackson's team went completely flat. DJ became a standard wingback, Clare a standard CB and we were just a static 352 with players out of position, no movement in the shape and a strategy of pumping it up to Stockley and praying Chuks was fit. It was horrific by the end.

Chunes

Good to see interesting tactical analysis on here. Cheers @Callumcafc

Noticed Asiimwe was playing further back and when he received the ball there was nobody ahead of him. Felt like we didn't plan to progress play much down that side. TC was operating more centrally, or at times coming over to the left to link and create an overload with CBT. Didn't feel like he was switching to a RW role with the ball. 

Are we going to be easy to suss if we play mostly down that wing? Surely it's going to create acres of space on the right if teams try to bring men over to the left, but didn't see an obvious switch on Saturday. Not that we needed one as it was working well. 

Oggy Red

Cafc43v3r said:

NabySarr said:

sam3110 said:

NabySarr said:

Our players average positions are quite interesting though. Not sure how this is worked out but I’d assume it is an average of all the positions they touched the ball in 

That looks like 352 to me still, just CBT is more forward minded than Asiimwe. 

Whatever it is, let's hope it's successful 

Yep i think Holden just learned from the Aberdeen game and tweaked it slightly so that we would get the best out of CBT but not be too exposed at the back

We played that exact same system in the second half against Dartford, weeks before the Aberdeen game.  Obviously one that was already in the "box of tricks".

I am not sure why nonsymmetrical formations come as such a surprise.  Liverpool's great team of the late 80s, SAFs first great united team and Wengers first great team weren't symmetrical, neither was Powell's team.

Nor even Curbs' 4-4-2 in the noughties - with 3 CMs lopsided and moving together across the park to cover.

NabySarr

Garrymanilow said:

I think static formations have been a thing of the past for a while. Ever since Conte's Chelsea went 343 with a 5ft8 right back at centre back and a winger at RWB English teams have started to see the value in a formation that offers fluidity outside of the traditional player roles. Obviously Guardiola is at the peak of the formations are meaningless boom, but with lesser players you can still offer a fluid structure at lower levels. Telling CBT to stay high and Thomas to pull wider really isn't at all different to what Jackson was initially doing with Matthews at CB and Leko at RWB before the players gave up on it, though it looks like hopefully Holden is doing a bit more with the midfield to encourage control and more up front to create movement. It'll be interesting to see what we do when Edun is available to start. He doesn't have the pace of CBT but he's a capable midfielder so I imagine we'll have another plan that sees him up a bit higher than the traditional wingback. 

The important thing is that we stay fluid and dynamic though; after a little while Jackson's team went completely flat. DJ became a standard wingback, Clare a standard CB and we were just a static 352 with players out of position, no movement in the shape and a strategy of pumping it up to Stockley and praying Chuks was fit. It was horrific by the end.

I wonder if we could see Edun on the left and CBT on the right with either Jones/Ness/Deji covering behind him 

Dazzler21

So what I am seeing from these screenshots is that we are playing a lopsided 3-5-2 with one wing being more attacking than the other. 




I do think we need to get those low hard crosses in more rather than pumping the ball to May. 


I also see that Anderson, Dobson and Fraser are IMO too close to one another. Anderson and Dobson especially - but it worked Saturday as Dobson cleaned up whenever Anderson made a mistake and often covered off Fraser's space too. 

This formation allows Dobson to shine. 

NabySarr

Dazzler21 said:

So what I am seeing from these screenshots is that we are playing a lopsided 3-5-2 with one wing being more attacking than the other. 




I do think we need to get those low hard crosses in more rather than pumping the ball to May. 


I also see that Anderson, Dobson and Fraser are IMO too close to one another. Anderson and Dobson especially - but it worked Saturday as Dobson cleaned up whenever Anderson made a mistake and often covered off Fraser's space too. 

This formation allows Dobson to shine. 

I think a proper striker (Leaburn) will help a lot with those issues. Leaburn is tall so we can vary our crosses a bit more as he can score with his head. 

Also Campbell playing centrally and dropping into those spaces in between the lines is probably not helping Fraser as that’s where he wants to be operating. So a proper striker will then mean Fraser can play a little bit higher and hopefully get on the ball in more dangerous areas. 

Blackett-Taylor playing so high and wide, plus May stretching the defence by running in behind should create the perfect conditions for Fraser, as both will mean he has more space in that left of centre area. Just at the moment both him and Campbell are there so not quite working