Rugby World Cup - Nationality Qualifications.

Sillybilly

Not sure if there is a thread already but my already diminishing interest was dulled even further by this article today. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/66528936

I think the nationality rules are now utterly out of hand. Not a xenophobic comment at all as I am a proud Scot who could and would now happily represent England in the Paralympics if my time came. I have however done 40 years service, raised my kids here, married an Englishwoman and am proud to call the place home. Incidentally the secret of the longevity of my marriage is that she’s never actually understood a word I’ve said!

Thoughts from the masses?  (On the rugger rather than my marriage please🤣)

WelshAddick

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

Lincsaddick

Rugby Union talent is spread pretty thin. Nowadays there is a demand especially for huge young men to play in the forwards, the South Pacific Islands and (e.g.) South Africa have a surplus of such giants. Forget New Zealand for a minute, Scotland have four Saffie born players in their squad, two wingers and two props, England have (e.g.) Saffie born Ribbans , and the seemingly omnipresent, undroppable Billy Vunipola. France include a Saffie and at least two 'Islanders'. Italy usually have more 'imports' than natives in their teams, Wales also regularly have an 'Islander' or two in their squad. 
I suspect that without the influx of overseas born players, who after all have to comply with a qualification period, there would be no real international competition, not ideal but that is the position.

As for @WelshAddick's example of poaching youngsters, that is worrying, but the good news might be that the RFU is prepared to pay big money to strengthen the women's team. The RFU has 'sponsored' overseas players for many years, the aforementioned Billy Vunipola and his brother for example.

I suspect that @Sillybilly is still a proud Scot at heart despite being 'englishised'.  I m o the Scots R U team is punching well above it's weight (no pun intended) and is in good and confident order with the best coach and captain in the home nations (see the recent performance v France for example).  Irish supporters might question that assertion. I only wish that the England outfit was in such good nick going into the World Cup
 

killerandflash

It's ridiculous I agree, but then I would go further and removed the "grandparent" eligibility for international football as well.

The problem is that international managers and boards treat international sport like club sport, where if your team isn't good enough you "sign" someone to make it better.

Chizz

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

Blackheathen

South African born John Hewie played for Scotland and joked that he never set foot north of the border until he pulled on his international jersey at the age of 24.

PrincessFiona

Blackheathen said:

South African born John Hewie played for Scotland and joked that he never set foot north of the border until he pulled on his international jersey at the age of 24.

Van der Merwe only qualifies through residency. But he talks genuinely and passionately about his love for Scotland and how he was able to resurrect his rugby career there, despite failing his medical, they gave him a chance It's his forever home now and wants to keep living there when he retires

Rothko

the shock that a minority sport with a self inflated view of itself, bends the rules to make it fit it 

Blackheathen

WelshAddick said:

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

So right about New Zealand WelshAddick.  I could name several of the All Blacks from 50 years ago, the Colin Meads/Don Clarke era.  Now, I simply don’t know most of the team,  much less pronounce their names.  Sorry if that seems a bit racial Seth.

Lincsaddick

Blackheathen said:

WelshAddick said:

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

So right about New Zealand WelshAddick.  I could name several of the All Blacks from 50 years ago, the Colin Meads/Don Clarke era.  Now, I simply don’t know most of the team,  much less pronounce their names.  Sorry if that seems a bit racial Seth.

as a youngster playing and nearly as obsessed with R U as with football, I well recall the 1963 A Bs UK tour and the big debate about would they select a Maori, the little Mack Herewini , for an international .. if memory serves he was the only Maori in the party .. funny what trivia one can recall ..  Herewini gave his occupation as 'contract boner', that is one who tours farms and abatoires butchering and trimming sheep's carcasses .. 1963–64 New Zealand rugby union tour of Britain, Ireland, France and North America - Wikipedia

CAFCTrev

I think in football if you're born in the UK you can actually play for any of the 4 UK nations?

iaitch

Lincsaddick said:

Blackheathen said:

WelshAddick said:

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

So right about New Zealand WelshAddick.  I could name several of the All Blacks from 50 years ago, the Colin Meads/Don Clarke era.  Now, I simply don’t know most of the team,  much less pronounce their names.  Sorry if that seems a bit racial Seth.

as a youngster playing and nearly as obsessed with R U as with football, I well recall the 1963 A Bs UK tour and the big debate about would they select a Maori, the little Mack Herewini , for an international .. if memory serves he was the only Maori in the party .. funny what trivia one can recall ..  Herewini gave his occupation as 'contract boner', that is one who tours farms and abatoires butchering and trimming sheep's carcasses .. 1963–64 New Zealand rugby union tour of Britain, Ireland, France and North America - Wikipedia

Sounds more like a porn star.

PrincessFiona

Rothko said:

the shock that a minority sport with a self inflated view of itself, bends the rules to make it fit it 

how does it have an inflated view of itself? What sports do you claim are not a minority sport? A minority of people watch football and even less  play it. Football isn't even in the top 3 in the world, but I don't see much about volleyball in comparison.

How are they 'bending' the rules compared to football?

Lincsaddick

iaitch said:

Lincsaddick said:

Blackheathen said:

WelshAddick said:

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

So right about New Zealand WelshAddick.  I could name several of the All Blacks from 50 years ago, the Colin Meads/Don Clarke era.  Now, I simply don’t know most of the team,  much less pronounce their names.  Sorry if that seems a bit racial Seth.

as a youngster playing and nearly as obsessed with R U as with football, I well recall the 1963 A Bs UK tour and the big debate about would they select a Maori, the little Mack Herewini , for an international .. if memory serves he was the only Maori in the party .. funny what trivia one can recall ..  Herewini gave his occupation as 'contract boner', that is one who tours farms and abatoires butchering and trimming sheep's carcasses .. 1963–64 New Zealand rugby union tour of Britain, Ireland, France and North America - Wikipedia

Sounds more like a porn star.

he was talking in a more innocent era lol

follett

CAFCTrev said:

I think in football if you're born in the UK you can actually play for any of the 4 UK nations?

Nope, you still have to have a grandparent from the country you play for. There used to be a rule where if you were born abroad you could pick any of the 4 countries though. Maik Taylor was born in Germany as a British citizen and picked Northern Ireland despite having no connection.

killerandflash

follett said:

CAFCTrev said:

I think in football if you're born in the UK you can actually play for any of the 4 UK nations?

Nope, you still have to have a grandparent from the country you play for. There used to be a rule where if you were born abroad you could pick any of the 4 countries though. Maik Taylor was born in Germany as a British citizen and picked Northern Ireland despite having no connection.

Our own John Robinson too. Born in Zimbabwe, I think his father was Scottish 

se9addick

killerandflash said:

follett said:

CAFCTrev said:

I think in football if you're born in the UK you can actually play for any of the 4 UK nations?

Nope, you still have to have a grandparent from the country you play for. There used to be a rule where if you were born abroad you could pick any of the 4 countries though. Maik Taylor was born in Germany as a British citizen and picked Northern Ireland despite having no connection.

Our own John Robinson too. Born in Zimbabwe, I think his father was Scottish 

Yep.

Pat van de Hauwe didn’t have a drop of Welsh blood in him either!

I didnt realise that loophole had actually been closed. 

Lincsaddick

Rugby World Cup: Jack Dempsey on not being Scottish - and not pretending to be - BBC Sport

Chizz

CAFCTrev said:

I think in football if you're born in the UK you can actually play for any of the 4 UK nations?

No, I think that's not quite right.  There's an extra qualification if you want to play for England, Wales or Northern Ireland: you have to be quite good at football as well. 

iaitch

Lincsaddick said:

Rugby World Cup: Jack Dempsey on not being Scottish - and not pretending to be - BBC Sport

I bet secretly he says 'Hoots mon' and recites 'wee timorous beastie' and drinks a pint of heavy and pronounces the word 'murder' as 'mudder'.

Sillybilly

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Rothko

PrincessFiona said:

Rothko said:

the shock that a minority sport with a self inflated view of itself, bends the rules to make it fit it 

how does it have an inflated view of itself? What sports do you claim are not a minority sport? A minority of people watch football and even less  play it. Football isn't even in the top 3 in the world, but I don't see much about volleyball in comparison.

How are they 'bending' the rules compared to football?

Its a sport with lower participation rates then Netball, Mountaineering, and martial arts, but has a disproportionate level of attention due to the demographic who surround it, and gets its inflated view of itself from that. As for bending rules, shall we do how Owen Farrell got off from his red card. 

PrincessFiona

Sillybilly said:

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Shame if David Gower couldn't have played for ENG though. And countless other examples

Lincsaddick

Rothko said:

PrincessFiona said:

Rothko said:

the shock that a minority sport with a self inflated view of itself, bends the rules to make it fit it 

how does it have an inflated view of itself? What sports do you claim are not a minority sport? A minority of people watch football and even less  play it. Football isn't even in the top 3 in the world, but I don't see much about volleyball in comparison.

How are they 'bending' the rules compared to football?

Its a sport with lower participation rates then Netball, Mountaineering, and martial arts, but has a disproportionate level of attention due to the demographic who surround it, and gets its inflated view of itself from that. As for bending rules, shall we do how Owen Farrell got off from his red card. 

agree that Farrell is a lucky boy, especially as the disciplinary panel was all Australian .. could be that they thought him being in the side, given his better international days are well behind him both tactically and physically, his selection gives all the other nations much more of a chance .. as for disproportionate media coverage, perhaps only in the more 'upmarket' press .. thing is if you're not interested in Rugby, then skip the TV, radio and printed press coverage ..

 i m o as an ex player with a pretty good knowledge of the game, watching Rugby holds more interest for me than (e.g.) watching people mountain climbing. however precarious and dangerous that particular 'sport' might be with it's potential for death and disaster. Enjoy (if you can as an Addick) the football season

JohnnyH2

PrincessFiona said:

Sillybilly said:

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Shame if David Gower couldn't have played for ENG though. And countless other examples

David Gower was born in Kent 

McBobbin

PrincessFiona said:

Sillybilly said:

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Shame if David Gower couldn't have played for ENG though. And countless other examples

Not to mention Nawab Mohammad Iftikhar Ali Khan Pataudi,

Lincsaddick

McBobbin said:

PrincessFiona said:

Sillybilly said:

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Shame if David Gower couldn't have played for ENG though. And countless other examples

Not to mention Nawab Mohammad Iftikhar Ali Khan Pataudi,

and countless other overseas born England test cricketers (Cowdrey, Dexter, Stokes etc etc)

PrincessFiona

PrincessFiona said:

Rothko said:

the shock that a minority sport with a self inflated view of itself, bends the rules to make it fit it 

how does it have an inflated view of itself? What sports do you claim are not a minority sport? A minority of people watch football and even less  play it. Football isn't even in the top 3 in the world, but I don't see much about volleyball in comparison.

How are they 'bending' the rules compared to football?

Its a sport with lower participation rates then Netball, Mountaineering, and martial arts, but has a disproportionate level of attention due to the demographic who surround it, and gets its inflated view of itself from that. As for bending rules, shall we do how Owen Farrell got off from his red card. 

 

More go to games and viewing figures as an ex-player of both rugby and netball, I don't know many people who'd watch the netball on tv let alone go to watch it compared to the rugby. Very difficult to get tickets for the rugby, so must be popular!

I don't know how he got off the red card though

PrincessFiona

JohnnyH2 said:

PrincessFiona said:

Sillybilly said:

Chizz said:

As long as rugby is allowed to set its own rules and it polices them properly, I don't have an issue with it.  Dempsey has a Scottish grandfather and therefore, within the rules, he is allowed to represent Scotland.  He has also represented another country, but hasn't played for them for three years - again, that's within the rules.  

As long as there are rules in place and the rules are followed, then there shouldn't be an issue.  

It does, however, shine a light on the notion of being "Scottish" or "English", and so on.  No-one has a Scottish passport, or an English passport.  So, is there a straightforward, testable definition of being "Scottish" or "English" that works? 

To my simple mind the ultimate test is being born there and I can just about stretch to having a parent from that country. After that it loses me I’m afraid. 

Shame if David Gower couldn't have played for ENG though. And countless other examples

David Gower was born in Kent 

My mistake. I'll think of a better example - Nat Sciver and Terry Butcher

Blackheathen

Lincsaddick said:

Blackheathen said:

WelshAddick said:

Totally agree, New Zealand have cherry picked the best talent from the pacific islands for years. Utter farce. It’s the same here in wales with the women’s team. My friends daughter is wales u18 captain. The welsh ru pay her £4000 per year. She’s in Hartbury College. The English ru have offered her £50,000 with free boarding and and a place at Kingston uni with no fees. 

So right about New Zealand WelshAddick.  I could name several of the All Blacks from 50 years ago, the Colin Meads/Don Clarke era.  Now, I simply don’t know most of the team,  much less pronounce their names.  Sorry if that seems a bit racial Seth.

as a youngster playing and nearly as obsessed with R U as with football, I well recall the 1963 A Bs UK tour and the big debate about would they select a Maori, the little Mack Herewini , for an international .. if memory serves he was the only Maori in the party .. funny what trivia one can recall ..  Herewini gave his occupation as 'contract boner', that is one who tours farms and abatoires butchering and trimming sheep's carcasses .. 1963–64 New Zealand rugby union tour of Britain, Ireland, France and North America - Wikipedia

Remember Mac Herewini, fly half who did a lot of kicking. In those days you could kick direct into touch without the ball bouncing.  Boring rugby compared to the open rugby of today.  That said, there is too much whistle these days with so many technicalities.

Nug

It really has become a bit silly, the pilfering of South Pacific Island players by all the major nations is beyond ridiculous but you cannot blame the players. Moving from Tonga to play for the All Blacks has huge financial rewards. They could stay and the money spreads around more evenly but that doesn't look like happening all the while the Tier 1 nations control the game. Have to say the Springjocks....sorry the Scottish national team, are particularly punching above their weight with the South African influx.

I feel for the smaller countries like Georgia who have a phenomenal team but have to fight against this merry go round of player nationalities as well as being held down by World Rugby and the tier 1 nations who are protecting their income stream. I love rugby it's a great game but it needs a massive overhaul across the world. It also needs an overhaul in this country too so it's not stacked in the favour of elite schools and their players.