How big are we?

Leuth

At least we're not in the circle of hell that many of the Greater Manchester clubs are in. Sadly that's as good as can be said for us right now. We have a lovely stadium! 

9goalswentpastperry

Richard J said:

Think @DOUCHER has correctly identified the top ten. Even when Aston Villa , Leeds and Newcastle have been in lower Divisions I always felt that they could pierce the Champions League given the right circumstances. Everton are another sleeping giant and the city of Liverpool is big enough for them to regrow probably when the new stadium is built.

Of the others Villa because they are by far the biggest club in Birmingham, Leeds the same for Yorkshire ( Wednesday suffer because they share the City with United) although when I worked in the area I discovered that there is a bigger passion for Rugby League. Likewise Newcastle in the north east. I always felt that they were bigger than Sunderland.

We are in the next tier in that we have a ceiling of the top half of the PL and a floor of roughly where we are and as others have said there are probably 40/50 clubs in that category although I accept that the likes of Sunderland, Wednesday and Forest are probably ' bigger' than us.

Those last three clubs you mention, I don't think there's any 'probably" about it. If you asked 100 football fans who's bigger out of us versus any of those three I doubt a single one would vote for us. 

Stig

DOUCHER said:

Stig said:

DOUCHER said:

And I’d put the top ten as - not in order 

Man Utd 
Man City 
liverpool
Arsenal
newcastle 
Chelsea 
spurs 
everton 
Leeds 
Aston Villa 

there’s probably another category actually who r deffo bigger than us:  sheff wed ,Sunderland, forest etc but is their potential any bigger? Probably not - the London factor closes that gap 

I was with you up until the London factor bit, which I think is often overstated. Sure it must help recruitment that it's one of the World's best known cities and that its famous for its culture, but there's a couple of big buts. It's a city with an overabundance of clubs. Three of which are huge, and half a dozen are, at least for the moment, on par or doing better than us. The other thing is that most of the provincial clubs come from single (or at most) two club towns and cities. We are never going to get the same levels of local support as them because there's too much competition and the population is too fluid.

but there is a much bigger local floating support - which explains why fulham, brentford and even ourselves managed to sell out in the prem - wycombe or bournmouth or exeter would struggle - a one city club will have a much more consistently sized support - norwich and ipswich's gates don't change much regardless of division 

I don't think there is bigger local floating support. I think there's a bigger population who may be attracted given the right conditions. But we haven't sold out The Valley for 16 years. There's a missing ingredient in making the most of that bigger local population; top flight football. People will turn up to watch a familiar team (ie one that's regularly on the telly) playing close to their home, and they may be sympathetic towards Charlton but that doesn't make them fans, nor does it make it easy to convert them into fans.  

sillav nitram

We're not.

We have a Premier League Stadium and that's about it.

killerandflash

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

DOUCHER

Maybe I need to clarify - closes the gap when in the prem - the glory boy floating pool is bigger in London 

MillwallFan

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

Well obviously there's clubs like Bournemouth, Luton, Sheff Utd and Brentford that aren't seen as PL clubs.

But there's no way you can class Charlton as being in the 'top tier'. There's only 20 PL spots and there's a ton of clubs not currently in the PL who are either bigger than us (Leeds, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Leicester, Derby, Southampton) or at least on a par with us (Ipswich, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Birmingham, Bristol City, Cardiff).

In any given metric (aside from academy quality) we are not top tier.

I’m not sure id put you on par with Ipswich and Norwich to be honest. There’s something about those two clubs. No matter how bad they’re doing on the pitch their attendances, both home and away, always seem to remain very healthy. 

Boro I’d say are bigger than Charlton, and Stoke are just. The last three I’d agree you’re on par with although Birmingham have won a major trophy in recent history and have huge potential. 

In answer to the original question, as an outsider looking in, I’d say mid to lower championship. We’re lower championship/ upper L1. We seem to spend most of our history flipping between the two. Recent years we’ve bucked the trend though. 

MillwallFan

se9addick said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

I’m not sure Charlton really tick any of those boxes. Being in London is a gift and curse, the market is saturated with more professional football teams than any other city on earth. You are also competing for finite disposable income with some of the greatest cultural attractions in the world too. 

Also, is there really room to expand the stadium anymore? Thought it had mainly been sold off.

This is very true. Sadly, it’s palace who have the biggest catchment area out of all the south London clubs. They’re right on the edge of south London so have most of Surrey as well as their part of south London. And as we know Surrey is full of people who would like to get in to “the footy” in this day and age, and have the disposable income to do so.  

Unfortunately I can only see them going from strength to strength 

MillwallFan

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

blackpool72

MillwallFan said:

se9addick said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

I’m not sure Charlton really tick any of those boxes. Being in London is a gift and curse, the market is saturated with more professional football teams than any other city on earth. You are also competing for finite disposable income with some of the greatest cultural attractions in the world too. 

Also, is there really room to expand the stadium anymore? Thought it had mainly been sold off.

This is very true. Sadly, it’s palace who have the biggest catchment area out of all the south London clubs. They’re right on the edge of south London so have most of Surrey as well as their part of south London. And as we know Surrey is full of people who would like to get in to “the footy” in this day and age, and have the disposable income to do so.  

Unfortunately I can only see them going from strength to strength 

Have patience. 
Sooner or later Palarce will crash and burn.
It might take a few more years,  but it will happen. 

SporadicAddick

blackpool72 said:

MillwallFan said:

se9addick said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

I’m not sure Charlton really tick any of those boxes. Being in London is a gift and curse, the market is saturated with more professional football teams than any other city on earth. You are also competing for finite disposable income with some of the greatest cultural attractions in the world too. 

Also, is there really room to expand the stadium anymore? Thought it had mainly been sold off.

This is very true. Sadly, it’s palace who have the biggest catchment area out of all the south London clubs. They’re right on the edge of south London so have most of Surrey as well as their part of south London. And as we know Surrey is full of people who would like to get in to “the footy” in this day and age, and have the disposable income to do so.  

Unfortunately I can only see them going from strength to strength 

Have patience. 
Sooner or later Palarce will crash and burn.
It might take a few more years,  but it will happen. 

A bit like a monkey, a typewriter and the bible...

Chris_from_Sidcup

MillwallFan said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

Well obviously there's clubs like Bournemouth, Luton, Sheff Utd and Brentford that aren't seen as PL clubs.

But there's no way you can class Charlton as being in the 'top tier'. There's only 20 PL spots and there's a ton of clubs not currently in the PL who are either bigger than us (Leeds, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Leicester, Derby, Southampton) or at least on a par with us (Ipswich, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Birmingham, Bristol City, Cardiff).

In any given metric (aside from academy quality) we are not top tier.

I’m not sure id put you on par with Ipswich and Norwich to be honest. There’s something about those two clubs. No matter how bad they’re doing on the pitch their attendances, both home and away, always seem to remain very healthy. 

Boro I’d say are bigger than Charlton, and Stoke are just. The last three I’d agree you’re on par with although Birmingham have won a major trophy in recent history and have huge potential. 

In answer to the original question, as an outsider looking in, I’d say mid to lower championship. We’re lower championship/ upper L1. We seem to spend most of our history flipping between the two. Recent years we’ve bucked the trend though. 

When Ipswich were treading water in the lower reaches of the championship a few years ago their average crowds for the season were:

16/17 - 16,980
17/18 - 16,272

For 10 consecutive seasons (10/11 to 19/20) they didn't once average over 20k.

Norwich i probably agree with you, but they have spent the last decade either in the PL or getting promoted out of the championship. It'll be interesting to see what happens if they spend a few years stuck down in the championship.

Stoke i'd say are pretty similar to us. In the early 2000s their attendances were shit, (13-14k) but obviously can pull a crowd when doing well. Last year they averaged 20k in the championship which is a 7k drop off from their PL years. Nothing too dissimilar to us. 

DOUCHER

MillwallFan said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

Well obviously there's clubs like Bournemouth, Luton, Sheff Utd and Brentford that aren't seen as PL clubs.

But there's no way you can class Charlton as being in the 'top tier'. There's only 20 PL spots and there's a ton of clubs not currently in the PL who are either bigger than us (Leeds, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Leicester, Derby, Southampton) or at least on a par with us (Ipswich, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Birmingham, Bristol City, Cardiff).

In any given metric (aside from academy quality) we are not top tier.

I’m not sure id put you on par with Ipswich and Norwich to be honest. There’s something about those two clubs. No matter how bad they’re doing on the pitch their attendances, both home and away, always seem to remain very healthy. 

Boro I’d say are bigger than Charlton, and Stoke are just. The last three I’d agree you’re on par with although Birmingham have won a major trophy in recent history and have huge potential. 

In answer to the original question, as an outsider looking in, I’d say mid to lower championship. We’re lower championship/ upper L1. We seem to spend most of our history flipping between the two. Recent years we’ve bucked the trend though. 

You are a third division club with flirtations to 2nd and 4th - we are 2nd division with flirtations to top division and div 3 - regardless of the last 10 years - u r having a spell in the sun, we are having a spell in the shade  

DOUCHER

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

As u can all the others - my sister in law works in the nhs -  they get offered free millwall tickets every game - something charlton have only just caught on to coz she asked why they didn’t do it 

MillwallFan

DOUCHER said:

MillwallFan said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

Well obviously there's clubs like Bournemouth, Luton, Sheff Utd and Brentford that aren't seen as PL clubs.

But there's no way you can class Charlton as being in the 'top tier'. There's only 20 PL spots and there's a ton of clubs not currently in the PL who are either bigger than us (Leeds, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Leicester, Derby, Southampton) or at least on a par with us (Ipswich, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Birmingham, Bristol City, Cardiff).

In any given metric (aside from academy quality) we are not top tier.

I’m not sure id put you on par with Ipswich and Norwich to be honest. There’s something about those two clubs. No matter how bad they’re doing on the pitch their attendances, both home and away, always seem to remain very healthy. 

Boro I’d say are bigger than Charlton, and Stoke are just. The last three I’d agree you’re on par with although Birmingham have won a major trophy in recent history and have huge potential. 

In answer to the original question, as an outsider looking in, I’d say mid to lower championship. We’re lower championship/ upper L1. We seem to spend most of our history flipping between the two. Recent years we’ve bucked the trend though. 

You are a third division club with flirtations to 2nd and 4th - we are 2nd division with flirtations to top division and div 3 - regardless of the last 10 years - u r having a spell in the sun, we are having a spell in the shade  

Dragging this ‘spell’ out aren’t you? 😁

blackpool72

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

Every season ticket that is sold counts towards the official attendance. 
This applies to all 92 clubs.
Not just Charlton. 
When watching premiere league games on sky you often see plenty of empty seats at Arsenal for instance but they still count in the attendance. 

MillwallFan

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

MillwallFan said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

letthegoodtimesroll said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

I'd honestly be very surprised if many fans see us as a PL club.

For most of my lifetime we were a run of the mill second tier side and i think that would be about our level, (as the 50/40/30/20 year averages in the original post kind of confirm).

There are PL clubs I don’t see as PL clubs and even some of the biggest are often only a bad season or a bad owner away from losing that crown.

Charlton has to be in that top tier of potential in terms of its catchment area, location (ie London and access to a young and affluent fanbase) and room for expansion of the ground. Most clubs can’t tick two of those boxes, let alone all three. 

As it stands, the stadium with all its faults is light years ahead of many others, including the PL. Sparrows Lane could probably accommodate the facilities available to half the league.

Are we a big club ? I suspect we are a lot bigger than people realise, including our own fan base.

Well obviously there's clubs like Bournemouth, Luton, Sheff Utd and Brentford that aren't seen as PL clubs.

But there's no way you can class Charlton as being in the 'top tier'. There's only 20 PL spots and there's a ton of clubs not currently in the PL who are either bigger than us (Leeds, Sunderland, Sheff Weds, Leicester, Derby, Southampton) or at least on a par with us (Ipswich, Norwich, Middlesbrough, Stoke, Birmingham, Bristol City, Cardiff).

In any given metric (aside from academy quality) we are not top tier.

I’m not sure id put you on par with Ipswich and Norwich to be honest. There’s something about those two clubs. No matter how bad they’re doing on the pitch their attendances, both home and away, always seem to remain very healthy. 

Boro I’d say are bigger than Charlton, and Stoke are just. The last three I’d agree you’re on par with although Birmingham have won a major trophy in recent history and have huge potential. 

In answer to the original question, as an outsider looking in, I’d say mid to lower championship. We’re lower championship/ upper L1. We seem to spend most of our history flipping between the two. Recent years we’ve bucked the trend though. 

When Ipswich were treading water in the lower reaches of the championship a few years ago their average crowds for the season were:

16/17 - 16,980
17/18 - 16,272

For 10 consecutive seasons (10/11 to 19/20) they didn't once average over 20k.

Norwich i probably agree with you, but they have spent the last decade either in the PL or getting promoted out of the championship. It'll be interesting to see what happens if they spend a few years stuck down in the championship.

Stoke i'd say are pretty similar to us. In the early 2000s their attendances were shit, (13-14k) but obviously can pull a crowd when doing well. Last year they averaged 20k in the championship which is a 7k drop off from their PL years. Nothing too dissimilar to us. 

Fair points but I would say that if you swapped positions with Ipswich they would still be getting more than the 8-10k you are currently getting 

MillwallFan

blackpool72 said:

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

Every season ticket that is sold counts towards the official attendance. 
This applies to all 92 clubs.
Not just Charlton. 
When watching premiere league games on sky you often see plenty of empty seats at Arsenal for instance but they still count in the attendance. 

But Charlton also include all the comps they give away, regardless of whether they’re used or not. I read that once on here from someone ITK.  

blackpool72

MillwallFan said:

blackpool72 said:

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

Every season ticket that is sold counts towards the official attendance. 
This applies to all 92 clubs.
Not just Charlton. 
When watching premiere league games on sky you often see plenty of empty seats at Arsenal for instance but they still count in the attendance. 

But Charlton also include all the comps they give away, regardless of whether they’re used or not. I read that once on here from someone ITK.  

I stand to be corrected but I don't believe that is the case now.

MillwallFan

blackpool72 said:

MillwallFan said:

blackpool72 said:

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

Every season ticket that is sold counts towards the official attendance. 
This applies to all 92 clubs.
Not just Charlton. 
When watching premiere league games on sky you often see plenty of empty seats at Arsenal for instance but they still count in the attendance. 

But Charlton also include all the comps they give away, regardless of whether they’re used or not. I read that once on here from someone ITK.  

I stand to be corrected but I don't believe that is the case now.

Fair enough 

BalladMan

Stig said:

DOUCHER said:

Stig said:

DOUCHER said:

And I’d put the top ten as - not in order 

Man Utd 
Man City 
liverpool
Arsenal
newcastle 
Chelsea 
spurs 
everton 
Leeds 
Aston Villa 

there’s probably another category actually who r deffo bigger than us:  sheff wed ,Sunderland, forest etc but is their potential any bigger? Probably not - the London factor closes that gap 

I was with you up until the London factor bit, which I think is often overstated. Sure it must help recruitment that it's one of the World's best known cities and that its famous for its culture, but there's a couple of big buts. It's a city with an overabundance of clubs. Three of which are huge, and half a dozen are, at least for the moment, on par or doing better than us. The other thing is that most of the provincial clubs come from single (or at most) two club towns and cities. We are never going to get the same levels of local support as them because there's too much competition and the population is too fluid.

but there is a much bigger local floating support - which explains why fulham, brentford and even ourselves managed to sell out in the prem - wycombe or bournmouth or exeter would struggle - a one city club will have a much more consistently sized support - norwich and ipswich's gates don't change much regardless of division 

I don't think there is bigger local floating support. I think there's a bigger population who may be attracted given the right conditions. But we haven't sold out The Valley for 16 years. There's a missing ingredient in making the most of that bigger local population; top flight football. People will turn up to watch a familiar team (ie one that's regularly on the telly) playing close to their home, and they may be sympathetic towards Charlton but that doesn't make them fans, nor does it make it easy to convert them into fans.  

Is it true we have not sold out the Valley for 16 years?  Doncaster Play-off semi final I am pretty sure was a sell out.  During 19/20, Blackburn also came within a few hundred of a sell out crowd (albeit cheap tickets).  I think the does help to prove that there is a paying audience there, if the team are successful.  

Six-a-bag-of-nuts

We aren't big are we.
That's why I find it so cringe when a new manager or player comes in and say we are "massive".
Those 40k, 50k and 60k attendances of the 1940s and 50s are an historical anachronism now.
I remember spending a lot of the 60s and 70s thinking that if only we could show some ambition or success those crowds might return.
But the demographic was different then, mostly working class men from Woolwich and surrounds. And Woolwich was thriving,  with thousands of factory workers employed in the Royal Ordnance or companies like Siemens.
I don't know exactly what our demographic is now but it is much more of a mixed bag and widespread.
This is only my uneducated speculation but I reckon if we are still in this shit league in 10 years time and Millwall remain where they are our "core" support will have become less than theirs.
Playing in our huge stadium it will look stark and depressing.

MillwallFan

DOUCHER said:

MillwallFan said:

killerandflash said:

Looking at the average L1 attendances this season, we're 4th but well behind the top 3

Derby 26605
Bolton 21455
Pompey 18006
Charlton 12622

The top 2 are obviously doing better this season, but even if we were leading the table no way would be averaging over 20000 in L1.

And you can probably knock a couple of thousand off your average attendance if you’re talking about actual fans through the door. 

As u can all the others - my sister in law works in the nhs -  they get offered free millwall tickets every game - something charlton have only just caught on to coz she asked why they didn’t do it 

We sell out quite a lot these days, or come close to sell outs, so I doubt we’re giving too many comps away at the moment. 

And anyway, from what I’ve been told by someone very high up at Millwall , we don’t, and never have, included the comps in our attendance unless they get used. 

oohaahmortimer

What happened to the alleged 15k of home fans who turned up for the mouthwatering local derby v Orient 
soon dipped to nearly half of that turning up

we’re a minge of a club now , like scum used to be 
they’ve been  punching a bit for a while , literally and metaphorically (cnuts) 

TonyWebstersShed

I think we underestimate ourselves. The Valley is in need of a lick of paint but it's a lot better than some Premier League grounds. (Biased I know but Selhurst would still be a disgrace at Championship level.)

We should be one of that cluster of clubs that drifts between the Premier League and the top end of the Championship. In London terms we are at least the equal of Palace, Fulham and - for heaven's sake - Brentford. 

Chizz

msomerton said:

Also over half the population of London were not born in the UK.
So we do not have a demographic that has historical al links of family watching Charlton

They will have come here with allegiance to the team in the home country they have come from, 
And the big 6 prem teams they watched on TV.
So it will be a struggle to build a fanbase for us.

I didn't want this nonsense not to be called out, so I'm doing so. 

This is nonsense. 

JamesSeed

What we need is a graph that shows our end of year league positions over the years.
I suspect if it was the profile of a Tour de France stage we'd be looking at a downhill finish.

JamesSeed

Chizz said:

msomerton said:

Also over half the population of London were not born in the UK.
So we do not have a demographic that has historical al links of family watching Charlton

They will have come here with allegiance to the team in the home country they have come from, 
And the big 6 prem teams they watched on TV.
So it will be a struggle to build a fanbase for us.

I didn't want this nonsense not to be called out, so I'm doing so. 

This is nonsense. 

Correct. It's supposed to be around 40%, but that of course includes the many people who live and work here who are only here temporarily for work reasons. 

cabbles

I’m almost 42 and find it fascinating that Fulham, who were solid Division 3, Div 4 when I was growing up are now an established Prem team (of sorts, they have had the odd bit of yo-yo’ing in recent years.  Brentford were going nowhere until 12 years ago and look at Brighton’s reversal from the abyss.  If you ask someone older than me they’ll tell you Fulham and Brentford were established teams in the top division back in their day.

Football moves in cycles for some clubs more than others, and if you look back over our history, pre and post WW2, we were a decent club competing in the top division.  As it is, recent history dictates that our days of being considered anything other than a league 1 team are long gone.

I always find the best example is when I meet someone from abroad who likes English football.  They ask who I support and if I think they’re old enough, I can reference that 20 years ago, we were in the Prem to see if they’ve heard of us.  

I don’t stand on ceremony at all and actually, I sometimes think it’s my close mates that still think of us from those Prem days, or people of a certain age similar to myself.  I always get the ‘what’s going on at Charlton?’ Question, because I think they remember the Curbs era more than we do.  I honestly get so bored of discussing us with non CAFC fans now.  I give them soundbites.  Another takeover, no understanding of the fans, we lose too much money each year, etc etc.

I’m still passionate about us despite the toll of recent years, but boy do I find it boring to talk about our predicament outside of here.  

Football has changed so much with the money now.  Footballers, generally speaking are plastic.  Premier league football and some of the coverage and TV companies competing with one another to broadcast has made it even more plastic, and I do think it’s going to get harder for clubs to do what Brentford and Brighton have done.

But, it can all change again - who knows.  I’ll take a solid run in the championship all day long 

The Red Robin

PWR. About six inches on a good day.