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Sheffield Wednesday - Into Administration (p44)
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One of their administrators has actually said they won't be laying off any staff because Chansiri had already done that and staffing levels were down the bare bones. If anything now that fans will start going back to games and spending money in the club shop etc, they will need to hire additional staff.altrinchamaddick said:So, going into administration means that lots of creditors will not be paid, including HMRC? Workforce will be cut to the bone, so people will lose their jobs. There is a massive fallout when a club goes into administration, people with children and mortgates to pay, taxes that would have gone into the public purse to support the NHS, police, whatever.
A 12 point deduction seems leniant to me. I'm old enough to remember Luton Town getting a 30 point deduction for something less.
Reading comments from the EFL and the Government advisory board, they appear to be fawning over the vision of saving an historic club, but there is no mention of the hardship that this will cause local creditors.
The SW fans seem really happy with this outcome, tearing up the Chansiri seats, I guess they are hoping for some rich Americans coming over the hill.
To me, it just sucks, too many people, and taxpayers have been shafted by administration, and I have no doubt that someone will bail them out.
I still go back to so many people supporting this historic club must survive, but to me, there should be stricter rules re administration, it is too easy for struggling teams.
My solution is an immediate 2 league relegation. The only problem with this solution is that I'm not sure it would put dodgy owners off, but it might make clubs do more research and due diligence on prospective owners.1 -
No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.4
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Listened to one of the administrators, who was on Radio Sheffield yesterday.lordromford said:I’m still puzzled by Chansiri’s approach to this whole saga, particularly the refusal to sell at a decent price a few months ago.On the face of it, it looks like he’s thrown a ton of money away, but I’m dubious. It does make me wonder if he’s playing 4D chess here? How does he stand to gain from this? Some of you lot are far more knowledgeable about money matters than me, so is there some loophole he’s exploited?The only thing I can think of is that maybe his plan is to effectively end up back in control after the sale of the club through being linked to whoever ends up buying them? Presumably administration will remove a lot of the club debt so he’d end up benefitting this way? I don’t know, I assume there are restrictions in place to prevent this, (for one, would he have any say in who the successful buyer is?) but if you’re dodgy enough and willing enough to use underhand tactics to make money, could he find a way around these restrictions?
I don’t know, I’m just kicking ideas around with no real knowledge of how these things work. I just don’t believe he’s taken this path without ensuring he makes money out of it.
He said that as Chansiri was one of the major creditors, he should receive around 25% of what he is supposedly owed by the club when any sale is made.
Receiving £10million from £40million owed to him.
Even though he apparently turned down a £40million offer not long ago.
Not sure if he is greedy or pig headed or just an idiot.
The administrators (one of them is a Wednesday fan) have control over who the club is sold to.
Chansiri will have no further control over any running of the club.3 -
They've rearranged the seats ahead of today's game.
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Think that HMRC get first priority over any available funds? The administrator will need to make serious cuts in the budget even if he is a Wendies fan? Surely he has to act properly in accordance with standard accounting practices. There will need to be wage cuts.......?1
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So did we nearly after the JJ freekick game. Even remember a woman giving it the biggen to us.ValleyGary said:No sympathy. Me and another poster on here got started on outside after our fa cup win so fuck em. They’re too big to go out of business but let them suffer for a while.0 -
Yet another reason to hate the stripy pricksKap10 said:
Palace screwed a large numbet of local suppliers when they went into administration. It was against this background that the foundations of their rise and Premiership success was built.iaitch said:stevexreeve said:
Administration is surely a good way to address some of these issues. It effectively lets a club (or any other business) wipe its most of its debt and become a "viable" business again.Karim_myBagheri said:Something I guess we already all know but found it sad to hear that the administrators have said
"Like many football clubs, it has been trading at a significant loss for many years, with those losses historically funded by the owner. Mr Chansiri is no longer willing to provide that financial support"
and this the football authorities, the TV companies, the richest clubs in the premier League and the government still do nothing about to relieve this pressure on so many historic clubs. Of course this is a global game and we need other leagues and countries involved but surely the richest football nation should be setting an example and being first to address these issues. How they do that I don't exactly but the way it's going it's not sustainable.
Shef Wed without debt are always going to be a viable business even if they are dumped into the 9th tier of the pyramid!
As we learnt from Southall, it is owners who simply take company money and spend it on themselves that need to be legally stopped. But this applies to all businesses (including schools) not just football!
It's not a good way for the people that are owed money.3 -
Says in the Times today the massives were so starved of cash that the squad were forced to take a coach to Charlton as there was not enough money to pay the players and staff to go on the train.
And to add insult to injury, the heating was broken on the coach and the journey down was delayed by traffic and took 6 hours!3 -
On a radio discussion last night, Palace were held up as the poster boys for how well a club can prosper after administration.blackpool72 said:
Yet another reason to hate the stripy pricksKap10 said:
Palace screwed a large numbet of local suppliers when they went into administration. It was against this background that the foundations of their rise and Premiership success was built.iaitch said:stevexreeve said:
Administration is surely a good way to address some of these issues. It effectively lets a club (or any other business) wipe its most of its debt and become a "viable" business again.Karim_myBagheri said:Something I guess we already all know but found it sad to hear that the administrators have said
"Like many football clubs, it has been trading at a significant loss for many years, with those losses historically funded by the owner. Mr Chansiri is no longer willing to provide that financial support"
and this the football authorities, the TV companies, the richest clubs in the premier League and the government still do nothing about to relieve this pressure on so many historic clubs. Of course this is a global game and we need other leagues and countries involved but surely the richest football nation should be setting an example and being first to address these issues. How they do that I don't exactly but the way it's going it's not sustainable.
Shef Wed without debt are always going to be a viable business even if they are dumped into the 9th tier of the pyramid!
As we learnt from Southall, it is owners who simply take company money and spend it on themselves that need to be legally stopped. But this applies to all businesses (including schools) not just football!
It's not a good way for the people that are owed money.
Warms your cockles, doesn't it? 😕0 -
Don’t get how this is a celebration is a cheating way out of paying your debts .. 12 points really that’s 8 wins to catch us and only 5 to get out of relegation spots is that a punishment… any team who takes the admin option should be relegated to the league two next….3
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Not any more. (Since 2020, I think). In a regular administration (But see below) this is the order of things:CharltonManor1966 said:Think that HMRC get first priority over any available funds? The administrator will need to make serious cuts in the budget even if he is a Wendies fan? Surely he has to act properly in accordance with standard accounting practices. There will need to be wage cuts.......?
First dibs go to secured creditors with a fixed charge over assets (are there any of these?)
Then the Administrators get paid.
Next in line are preferential creditors in respect of unpaid wages, pensions and holiday pay.
HMRC are the next with their snouts in the trough as a secondary preferential creditor.
Secured creditors with a floating charge come next
Followed by ordinary creditors
And finally, shareholders.
As ever things are never the same with football clubs. There is a category called "Football Super Creditors". They come above all the others. This category includes player and manager wages, debts due to other clubs for transfer fees, etc and monies owed to the Premier League or EFL.
The well publicised debts and likely complexity of the administration would lead me to guess there will be precious little left after the Administrators have taken their slice of the pie. I actually wonder whether they will get paid at all frankly. They seem to think there will be enough available from the sale of the club to cover these though.
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Heard from a Sheffield mate (not an Owl) that Mike Ashley is poking around? Any truth in this one?0
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You have to wonder what hidden debts, arrangements and “dodgy dealings” are lurking in Wednesdays books that won’t come to light until the administrators get to grips with it. Perhaps it might not be quite as straightforward as some are thinking to unravel Chansiri’s ownership. I think we can all agree that he’s been one of the worst owners that English football has ever seen.1
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Palace also got Selhurst on the cheap.CaptainRobbo said:
On a radio discussion last night, Palace were held up as the poster boys for now well a club can prosper after administration.blackpool72 said:
Yet another reason to hate the stripy pricksKap10 said:
Palace screwed a large numbet of local suppliers when they went into administration. It was against this background that the foundations of their rise and Premiership success was built.iaitch said:stevexreeve said:
Administration is surely a good way to address some of these issues. It effectively lets a club (or any other business) wipe its most of its debt and become a "viable" business again.Karim_myBagheri said:Something I guess we already all know but found it sad to hear that the administrators have said
"Like many football clubs, it has been trading at a significant loss for many years, with those losses historically funded by the owner. Mr Chansiri is no longer willing to provide that financial support"
and this the football authorities, the TV companies, the richest clubs in the premier League and the government still do nothing about to relieve this pressure on so many historic clubs. Of course this is a global game and we need other leagues and countries involved but surely the richest football nation should be setting an example and being first to address these issues. How they do that I don't exactly but the way it's going it's not sustainable.
Shef Wed without debt are always going to be a viable business even if they are dumped into the 9th tier of the pyramid!
As we learnt from Southall, it is owners who simply take company money and spend it on themselves that need to be legally stopped. But this applies to all businesses (including schools) not just football!
It's not a good way for the people that are owed money.
Warms your cockles, doesn't it? 😕
I firmly believe that any club that goes into administration and rises from the ashes to gain Premier League status should be forced to pay those creditors that had to accept pence in the £ the balance of their debt. This should be time limited for sake of argument 5 years.
I spoke about this to a finance guy involved in company liquidation and he argued strongly that it should not be the case .... he was also a Palace fan.8 -
Swap them for ones in the away endmoutuakilla said:
If they've taken them out without breaking them the could just jumble the blue and white seats up.addickson said:
Surely they can't be allowed to spend money on something so petty if they are in admin?fenaddick said:The Chansiri seats are being removed already. A cosmetic change but a good one
12 points is very lenient. In Scotland it's a 15 point deduction (with 10 less games in a league season) with a further 5 points deducted the following season.0 -
My reading on it has always been the same as Roland: arrogance and refusal to accept that the idiot fans were right when they said that the strategy wasn't right and were even more right when it failed. The only way to get out with an unbruised ego is to sell with no overall loss of investment. You buy the club for x, you invest y and yet you've made such a mess of it that it's valued at z, which is much lower than x+y. It doesn't matter that you spaffed 10s of millions on rubbish players, it doesn't matter that you're a division lower than you were when you started and the club just isn't worth as much to a sensible investor, if you leave the club having made a big loss then they were right that you failed. Walk out breaking even and it was just a weird thing you did for a while for fun that didn't cost you anything. The price Chansiri was offered was decent for what the club is, but it wasn't enough to cover the losses he made being an idiot so it couldn't be accepted. Same with Roland and the Australians, it all could have been over much earlier if not for some stubborn old rich dickhead refusing to accept that he might get it wrong sometimes and taking the financial hit. Weds might be luckier than us in that the administrators have hold of the stadium and can sell the whole thing rather than having to keep the moron as a landlord, but equally admin isn't a silver bullet so who knows.lordromford said:I’m still puzzled by Chansiri’s approach to this whole saga, particularly the refusal to sell at a decent price a few months ago.On the face of it, it looks like he’s thrown a ton of money away, but I’m dubious. It does make me wonder if he’s playing 4D chess here? How does he stand to gain from this? Some of you lot are far more knowledgeable about money matters than me, so is there some loophole he’s exploited?The only thing I can think of is that maybe his plan is to effectively end up back in control after the sale of the club through being linked to whoever ends up buying them? Presumably administration will remove a lot of the club debt so he’d end up benefitting this way? I don’t know, I assume there are restrictions in place to prevent this, (for one, would he have any say in who the successful buyer is?) but if you’re dodgy enough and willing enough to use underhand tactics to make money, could he find a way around these restrictions?
I don’t know, I’m just kicking ideas around with no real knowledge of how these things work. I just don’t believe he’s taken this path without ensuring he makes money out of it.2 -
Again says a lot about their all about them attitudeFremlinsFellow said:No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.1 -
Serious question but am I right in thinking that Sheff Wednesday FC and Hillsborough are both owned by Chansiri but not one entity ? Both went into administration at the same time but would the administration of these two companies be one and the same or will there be two administrators . Given that the job of the administrator is to obtain the very best financial outcome for the creditors of that company would there not be a conflict of interest if the administration of these two entities were joined ?Garrymanilow said:
My reading on it has always been the same as Roland: arrogance and refusal to accept that the idiot fans were right when they said that the strategy wasn't right and were even more right when it failed. The only way to get out with an unbruised ego is to sell with no overall loss of investment. You buy the club for x, you invest y and yet you've made such a mess of it that it's valued at z, which is much lower than x+y. It doesn't matter that you spaffed 10s of millions on rubbish players, it doesn't matter that you're a division lower than you were when you started and the club just isn't worth as much to a sensible investor, if you leave the club having made a big loss then they were right that you failed. Walk out breaking even and it was just a weird thing you did for a while for fun that didn't cost you anything. The price Chansiri was offered was decent for what the club is, but it wasn't enough to cover the losses he made being an idiot so it couldn't be accepted. Same with Roland and the Australians, it all could have been over much earlier if not for some stubborn old rich dickhead refusing to accept that he might get it wrong sometimes and taking the financial hit. Weds might be luckier than us in that the administrators have hold of the stadium and can sell the whole thing rather than having to keep the moron as a landlord, but equally admin isn't a silver bullet so who knows.lordromford said:I’m still puzzled by Chansiri’s approach to this whole saga, particularly the refusal to sell at a decent price a few months ago.On the face of it, it looks like he’s thrown a ton of money away, but I’m dubious. It does make me wonder if he’s playing 4D chess here? How does he stand to gain from this? Some of you lot are far more knowledgeable about money matters than me, so is there some loophole he’s exploited?The only thing I can think of is that maybe his plan is to effectively end up back in control after the sale of the club through being linked to whoever ends up buying them? Presumably administration will remove a lot of the club debt so he’d end up benefitting this way? I don’t know, I assume there are restrictions in place to prevent this, (for one, would he have any say in who the successful buyer is?) but if you’re dodgy enough and willing enough to use underhand tactics to make money, could he find a way around these restrictions?
I don’t know, I’m just kicking ideas around with no real knowledge of how these things work. I just don’t believe he’s taken this path without ensuring he makes money out of it.0 -
You're right that it's two separate entities. Three people from Begbies Traynor have been appointed joint administrators of Sheffield Wednesday Football Club Limited and of Sheffield 3 Limited, the company that owns the club’s stadium. You need to be able to give 10 years' security on a lease or own a ground to have a club in the EFL so I think it's quite easy for them to argue that the best deal you can get will involve both entities bundled together. One isn't all that much use without the other and there's no guarantee (although it's very likely of course) that Wednesday would choose to play at Hillsborough or that the new owners of Hillsborough would lease the stadium to Wednesday. Selling it all in one go when one needs the other is the safest financial choice.ShootersHillGuru said:
Serious question but am I right in thinking that Sheff Wednesday FC and Hillsborough are both owned by Chansiri but not one entity ? Both went into administration at the same time but would the administration of these two companies be one and the same or will there be two administrators . Given that the job of the administrator is to obtain the very best financial outcome for the creditors of that company would there not be a conflict of interest if the administration of these two entities were joined ?Garrymanilow said:
My reading on it has always been the same as Roland: arrogance and refusal to accept that the idiot fans were right when they said that the strategy wasn't right and were even more right when it failed. The only way to get out with an unbruised ego is to sell with no overall loss of investment. You buy the club for x, you invest y and yet you've made such a mess of it that it's valued at z, which is much lower than x+y. It doesn't matter that you spaffed 10s of millions on rubbish players, it doesn't matter that you're a division lower than you were when you started and the club just isn't worth as much to a sensible investor, if you leave the club having made a big loss then they were right that you failed. Walk out breaking even and it was just a weird thing you did for a while for fun that didn't cost you anything. The price Chansiri was offered was decent for what the club is, but it wasn't enough to cover the losses he made being an idiot so it couldn't be accepted. Same with Roland and the Australians, it all could have been over much earlier if not for some stubborn old rich dickhead refusing to accept that he might get it wrong sometimes and taking the financial hit. Weds might be luckier than us in that the administrators have hold of the stadium and can sell the whole thing rather than having to keep the moron as a landlord, but equally admin isn't a silver bullet so who knows.lordromford said:I’m still puzzled by Chansiri’s approach to this whole saga, particularly the refusal to sell at a decent price a few months ago.On the face of it, it looks like he’s thrown a ton of money away, but I’m dubious. It does make me wonder if he’s playing 4D chess here? How does he stand to gain from this? Some of you lot are far more knowledgeable about money matters than me, so is there some loophole he’s exploited?The only thing I can think of is that maybe his plan is to effectively end up back in control after the sale of the club through being linked to whoever ends up buying them? Presumably administration will remove a lot of the club debt so he’d end up benefitting this way? I don’t know, I assume there are restrictions in place to prevent this, (for one, would he have any say in who the successful buyer is?) but if you’re dodgy enough and willing enough to use underhand tactics to make money, could he find a way around these restrictions?
I don’t know, I’m just kicking ideas around with no real knowledge of how these things work. I just don’t believe he’s taken this path without ensuring he makes money out of it.4 -
Not the fault of the fans, who will not be happy that others have lost money and jobs being lost.FremlinsFellow said:No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.3 -
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Celebrating that Chansiri is out. Same as any other clubs fans would celebrate being rid of a bad owner.EugenesAxe said:
Again says a lot about their all about them attitudeFremlinsFellow said:No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.1 -
League two would be a bit harsh, but i do think the punishment for going into administration should be automatic relegation.RonnieMoore said:Don’t get how this is a celebration is a cheating way out of paying your debts .. 12 points really that’s 8 wins to catch us and only 5 to get out of relegation spots is that a punishment… any team who takes the admin option should be relegated to the league two next….
Let's say a team goes into administration, but then ends the season with 65 points (so 53 points with the deduction). They'd still be in the same division with no real punishment.
It doesn't really impact Wednesday that much as they were likely going to be relegated anyway, so the -12 means nothing, but i think it does need looking at for the future.1 -
No going into administration, I understand celebrating because he’s gone.swordfish said:
Celebrating that Chansiri is out. Same as any other clubs fans would celebrate being rid of a bad owner.EugenesAxe said:
Again says a lot about their all about them attitudeFremlinsFellow said:No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.0 -
There's one thing you can do when your club goes into admin to help those local businesses and that's spend money. And to be fair to them, that's what the fans are doing. They've spent over £200,000 in the club shop since admin and in the 24 hours after they sold 9,000 tickets. That's money that will go to paying off creditors and help pay wages of normal staff. Can't argue with that really
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"So happy, despite the minus 12 and the uncertainty"EugenesAxe said:
No going into administration, I understand celebrating because he’s gone.swordfish said:
Celebrating that Chansiri is out. Same as any other clubs fans would celebrate being rid of a bad owner.EugenesAxe said:
Again says a lot about their all about them attitudeFremlinsFellow said:No Sheffield Wednesday fans should be celebrating going into administration - as previous posters have stated it will be honest local suppliers and organisations like St John’s Ambulance who will lose out.
That was the reaction from a Wednesday supporting friend of mine on hearing the news. Make of it what you will.0 -
Cannot really see what's wrong with automatic expulsion from the league into the national!Chris_from_Sidcup said:
League two would be a bit harsh, but i do think the punishment for going into administration should be automatic relegation.RonnieMoore said:Don’t get how this is a celebration is a cheating way out of paying your debts .. 12 points really that’s 8 wins to catch us and only 5 to get out of relegation spots is that a punishment… any team who takes the admin option should be relegated to the league two next….
Let's say a team goes into administration, but then ends the season with 65 points (so 53 points with the deduction). They'd still be in the same division with no real punishment.
It doesn't really impact Wednesday that much as they were likely going to be relegated anyway, so the -12 means nothing, but i think it does need looking at for the future.
Players that want to leave should be specially auctioned off to pay club debts.
Sher Wed would get back to league 1 or the championship in a couple of "Wrexham style" years!
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But then, why should a team from the national league south or north miss out on promotion to accommodate Sheffield Wednesday?stevexreeve said:
Cannot really see what's wrong with automatic expulsion from the league into the national!Chris_from_Sidcup said:
League two would be a bit harsh, but i do think the punishment for going into administration should be automatic relegation.RonnieMoore said:Don’t get how this is a celebration is a cheating way out of paying your debts .. 12 points really that’s 8 wins to catch us and only 5 to get out of relegation spots is that a punishment… any team who takes the admin option should be relegated to the league two next….
Let's say a team goes into administration, but then ends the season with 65 points (so 53 points with the deduction). They'd still be in the same division with no real punishment.
It doesn't really impact Wednesday that much as they were likely going to be relegated anyway, so the -12 means nothing, but i think it does need looking at for the future.
Players that want to leave should be specially auctioned off to pay club debts.
Sher Wed would get back to league 1 or the championship in a couple of "Wrexham style" years!1 -
Chansiri is the largest creditor…fenaddick said:There's one thing you can do when your club goes into admin to help those local businesses and that's spend money. And to be fair to them, that's what the fans are doing. They've spent over £200,000 in the club shop since admin and in the 24 hours after they sold 9,000 tickets. That's money that will go to paying off creditors and help pay wages of normal staff. Can't argue with that really0 -
I think the first two in your list are actually the other way around. The Administrator's should always be the first to get paid (and in full) - otherwise, no firm of Administrators would take on the task.cafcfan said:
Not any more. (Since 2020, I think). In a regular administration (But see below) this is the order of things:CharltonManor1966 said:Think that HMRC get first priority over any available funds? The administrator will need to make serious cuts in the budget even if he is a Wendies fan? Surely he has to act properly in accordance with standard accounting practices. There will need to be wage cuts.......?
First dibs go to secured creditors with a fixed charge over assets (are there any of these?)
Then the Administrators get paid.
Next in line are preferential creditors in respect of unpaid wages, pensions and holiday pay.
HMRC are the next with their snouts in the trough as a secondary preferential creditor.
Secured creditors with a floating charge come next
Followed by ordinary creditors
And finally, shareholders.
As ever things are never the same with football clubs. There is a category called "Football Super Creditors". They come above all the others. This category includes player and manager wages, debts due to other clubs for transfer fees, etc and monies owed to the Premier League or EFL.
The well publicised debts and likely complexity of the administration would lead me to guess there will be precious little left after the Administrators have taken their slice of the pie. I actually wonder whether they will get paid at all frankly. They seem to think there will be enough available from the sale of the club to cover these though.0
