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HS2 - "focus group" discussion.
Comments
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Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Friend Or Defoe said:Chippycafc said:colthe3rd said:Chippycafc said:colthe3rd said:Chippycafc said:ShootersHillGuru said:Chippycafc said:Stig said:Put an end to nonsense like this. We need to encourage rail travel, not discourage it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66913117
Well done sadiq and some people quired why I have an opinion of him living where I do.
Theres lots of ways to skin a cat and I will be utilising it.
I do wonder how this sits with the anti ulez lot about the poorest in London being impacted the most? Don't you agree they should be protected first given their most likely to need to use the services to survive?
Apologies for adding to the derailment (pun intended) of this thread, it will be my last post on this particular point.
Dont know what it cost now but i recall about 6 years ago making a single tube journey on a Sunday afternoon from Kings Cross to Waterloo and it cost me £4.20. God know what it does now and this was pre pandemic bla bla days.
Lots of people outside of the city contribute to those profits. Its very inward thinking of those that support Khan that has led to this. I will probably drive now so they have lost my contribution but i will now add more smog to the city. Great thinking Sadiq some Londoners certainly deserve you.
End of story.
You can't get a single tube from Kings Cross to Waterloo.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Are you suggesting that you used to be able to get a tube directly from Kings Cross to Waterloo without changing , when you can't do that now?
There was no mention of me going direct without changing think you got the wrong end of the stick.
I wasn't going to comment further as the smug smirk on my face knowing i was correct AGAIN was enough.
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Chippycafc said:Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Off_it said:Chippycafc said:Friend Or Defoe said:Chippycafc said:colthe3rd said:Chippycafc said:colthe3rd said:Chippycafc said:ShootersHillGuru said:Chippycafc said:Stig said:Put an end to nonsense like this. We need to encourage rail travel, not discourage it.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66913117
Well done sadiq and some people quired why I have an opinion of him living where I do.
Theres lots of ways to skin a cat and I will be utilising it.
I do wonder how this sits with the anti ulez lot about the poorest in London being impacted the most? Don't you agree they should be protected first given their most likely to need to use the services to survive?
Apologies for adding to the derailment (pun intended) of this thread, it will be my last post on this particular point.
Dont know what it cost now but i recall about 6 years ago making a single tube journey on a Sunday afternoon from Kings Cross to Waterloo and it cost me £4.20. God know what it does now and this was pre pandemic bla bla days.
Lots of people outside of the city contribute to those profits. Its very inward thinking of those that support Khan that has led to this. I will probably drive now so they have lost my contribution but i will now add more smog to the city. Great thinking Sadiq some Londoners certainly deserve you.
End of story.
You can't get a single tube from Kings Cross to Waterloo.
Hope that clears things up for you.
Are you suggesting that you used to be able to get a tube directly from Kings Cross to Waterloo without changing , when you can't do that now?
There was no mention of me going direct without changing think you got the wrong end of the stick.
I wasn't going to comment further as the smug smirk on my face knowing i was correct AGAIN was enough.
To be honest, you speak in complete riddles most of the time so it's very difficult to understand exactly what it is you're trying to say. And then when people try to clarify what you're saying you answer with more opaque and vague statements.
If you'd care to read it back I clearly said you can get a single ticket anywhere, just not a direct train. But seriously, whatever floats your boat and makes you happy is fine with me.
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I speak in riddles all of the time not most.1
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Rothko said:There’s no room at either for proper border controls if I remember right
Re-opening the intermediate stations (where demand and yields are much lower) would make things even worse as it would take away from London vital border police resources. The reality of traffic numbers is such that a police officer controls 5 to 10 times more passengers in our large terminals than in intermediate stations
If you used Eurostar you may recall that until a few years ago a UK guard stood in a fixed booth checking passports, even though he didn't need to, before the next booth staffed by a French guard. Relatively recently, they equipped the UK guards with hand-held passport scanners, and took the booth away, together with the twat who saw fit to interrogate me on why I (a UK citizen with a UK passport, leaving the UK) was travelling to Prague. I started a thread on here about it. As I understand it, you'd need the restoration of the booth, or a newer machine, and the whole thing would be a bit slower and less pleasant, but the volume of passengers would still make it manageable I'd have thought. As for inbound trains, do they need anyone? Surely that's all done at the "UK Border" in Paris/Brussels/Lille?
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Our unelected Prime Minister Sunak quickly selling off HS2 assets at a loss, so that his decision cannot be reversed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67141579
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/govt-selling-off-hs2-land-at-a-loss-to-prevent-future-administrations-reversing-its-decision-361302/
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He knows that he won't be in the job this time next year and is deliberately queering the pitch for whoever his successor is. The man is a despicable wrecker.13
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Stig said:He knows that he won't be in the job this time next year and is deliberately queering the pitch for whoever is successor is. The man is a despicable wrecker.
The entire pro- HS2 rail community is seething about this. The shrinking of Euston is also permananet, so there will never now be the capacity increase that the whole project was about.Like I said, putting aside political tribalism, this seems like just childish spite and I do not see where the votes are in such behaviour. Who wins because of this?10 -
PragueAddick said:Stig said:He knows that he won't be in the job this time next year and is deliberately queering the pitch for whoever is successor is. The man is a despicable wrecker.
The entire pro- HS2 rail community is seething about this. The shrinking of Euston is also permananet, so there will never now be the capacity increase that the whole project was about.Like I said, putting aside political tribalism, this seems like just childish spite and I do not see where the votes are in such behaviour. Who wins because of this?11 -
There is a petition to stop the sale of this land in case anyone is interested
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/halt-the-sale-of-all-land-purchased-for-hs2?source=rawlink&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=rawlink&share=3c0e4015-debe-41ec-9fa3-0946e8259d8e
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ME14addick said:There is a petition to stop the sale of this land in case anyone is interested
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/halt-the-sale-of-all-land-purchased-for-hs2?source=rawlink&utm_medium=socialshare&utm_source=rawlink&share=3c0e4015-debe-41ec-9fa3-0946e8259d8e
Like the granting of a 9 year franchise renewal for the dreadful Avanti West Coast last month, this rush to sell off the HS2 land smacks to me of a dog in the manger action against the next government.
I don't doubt the sale will also be to the benefit of some major Tory supporters, rather than returning it to those who were dispossessed when it was compulsorily purchased. New party leader - same old boys network, as seen with the PPE contracts?
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Big expose on how HS2 Ltd hid the escalating costs and the Government misled Parliament. I knew about some of this already but it's pretty shocking. Behind a paywall I'm afraid.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5d44eafa-6f4b-11ee-8275-e4bad3604bca?shareToken=f49a696776af35ac38a02f53ab2bc8e5
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It looks like this Tweet, from a guy I follow, might open the Times article for you, it still does for me. I have some things to say about that article, though
https://x.com/Ogilvie_CJ/status/1715990729476976894?s=20
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The problem with this summary is that it is suggesting the entire project was fundamentally flawed from the start, and, sadly, suggests an editorial agenda at work, which for me undermines the undoubtedly diligent work of the two journos who are credited. One of the big reasons why costs have risen is the need to dig tunnels in the Chilterns because the government caved in to local and very well-connected NIMBYs. And yes, all HS lines need to be more straight and level than conventional lines to facilitate the highest speeds, but all HS lines have curves, of course they do, FFS. Take a look at how HS1 approaches Ebbsfleet.
That said I'm always here for exposes of massive public sector waste,so long as we learn lessons from them. One of the most difficult aspects of the current debate re HS2 is that there is no definitive account of what the cost budget has been at various times and what the components were. Even the pro-HS2 guys who are pushing back cannot seem to agree, which is making my work more difficult. But one example is that the cost of the trains themselves is part of the Govt. "narrative" figure. This is a nonsense, unless the Government is planning to both build and operate the trains itself. Even if the railway were fully nationalised the trains would not go into that budget. It's amateur hour public budgetting, and I'm being kind by assuming it's just an error. But one lesson is, the country needs to up its game in costing, assessing and controlling major infrastructure budgets.1 -
"Super-fast" sounds like something a child might say about a toy car.
What exactly does it mean?
Perhaps it would have been wiser to publish reasonable cost estimates for different levels of capacity and speed. Together with a summary of similar projects throughout the world.
300 km / hr seems to be the normal speed for new railway lines and about 100 km /hr for roads.
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All modern rail and road projects should have tunnels and bridges. Not just because they a going through hilly and/or beautiful areas, but because we need to allow animals freedom of movement too.6
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stevexreeve said:"Super-fast" sounds like something a child might say about a toy car.
What exactly does it mean?
Perhaps it would have been wiser to publish reasonable cost estimates for different levels of capacity and speed. Together with a summary of similar projects throughout the world.
300 km / hr seems to be the normal speed for new railway lines and about 100 km /hr for roads.0 -
In terms of fast, how much does it matter?
They have recently lowered the speed limit of the TFL owned Eltham Road (double red lines) from Sutcliffe Park athletics track corner to Lee Green, from 30mph to 20mph.
I can’t see how that change has a negative effect on anybody.0 -
Capacity is going to be one of the major problems going forward. There is definitely and rightly so a move to get people out of cars and onto public transport. It’s so short sighted to cancel a project that significantly relieves capacity issues. At present it’s the unreliability and cost of train travel keeping people in cars and as a person that now lives a four hour drive from my London roots with a need to make the journey fairly often I’ve looked at going by train and it’s not quicker and certainly not cheaper than sitting in the comfort of my car. “They” won’t reduce fares to make rail travel attractive and if by some miracle they do then there is not the capacity to make it work. The whole rail service and infrastructure needs a complete rethink. At the moment it’s hard to see a way of squaring the circle.5
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ShootersHillGuru said:Capacity is going to be one of the major problems going forward. There is definitely and rightly so a move to get people out of cars and onto public transport. It’s so short sighted to cancel a project that significantly relieves capacity issues. At present it’s the unreliability and cost of train travel keeping people in cars and as a person that now lives a four hour drive from my London roots with a need to make the journey fairly often I’ve looked at going by train and it’s not quicker and certainly not cheaper than sitting in the comfort of my car. “They” won’t reduce fares to make rail travel attractive and if by some miracle they do then there is not the capacity to make it work. The whole rail service and infrastructure needs a complete rethink. At the moment it’s hard to see a way of squaring the circle.
The balance was tilted a bit by road tolls, both national payable in Austria and specific, through a mountain tunnel. But 2nd class would have been cheaper just based on the fuel cost. And there were the epic views as the train takes the legendary Semmering line. The journey took 6hours45, and was on time in both directions.
So that seems to be evidence of another specific British problem for the rail sector0 -
By way of example I thought I’d do a Trainline ticket search for this coming Friday 27th October which for me would be a realistic scenario as I would try and go to London and take in a game before returning on Sunday seeing friends and family in the process. Booking much further ahead might result in a saving but that’s not always or even often an option. The train times are something I would look to book. It takes me on average just under four hours by car to Greenwich and the fuel cost return is I suppose around £50. By the time I build into the journey travel to departing station and onward travel from Kings X to Greenwich and return the cost increases as does the time,to something closer to the journey time by car. It is of course for me anyway a nicer journey in my car. If we want to do the trip as a family you can see the cost is just ridiculous by train.0
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ShootersHillGuru said:By way of example I thought I’d do a Trainline ticket search for this coming Friday 27th October which for me would be a realistic scenario as I would try and go to London and take in a game before returning on Sunday seeing friends and family in the process. Booking much further ahead might result in a saving but that’s not always or even often an option. The train times are something I would look to book. It takes me on average just under four hours by car to Greenwich and the fuel cost return is I suppose around £50. By the time I build into the journey travel to departing station and onward travel from Kings X to Greenwich and return the cost increases as does the time,to something closer to the journey time by car. It is of course for me anyway a nicer journey in my car. If we want to do the trip as a family you can see the cost is just ridiculous by train.
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PragueAddick said:The problem with this summary is that it is suggesting the entire project was fundamentally flawed from the start, and, sadly, suggests an editorial agenda at work, which for me undermines the undoubtedly diligent work of the two journos who are credited. One of the big reasons why costs have risen is the need to dig tunnels in the Chilterns because the government caved in to local and very well-connected NIMBYs. And yes, all HS lines need to be more straight and level than conventional lines to facilitate the highest speeds, but all HS lines have curves, of course they do, FFS. Take a look at how HS1 approaches Ebbsfleet.
The Select Committee agreed with HS2 but did agree that a shorter extension of 2.6km would be appropriate at a cost of £47m, a trivial sum in the context of the scheme. This has been known about since 2016.
So (a) it wasn't the Government who "caved in", it was the Select Committee of MPs (form various parties) who ordered a modest change (b) the NIMBYs (if you can really call them that) did not get want they want at all (c) the costs were a tiny pecentage of the overall increased costs (d) they were already known about before the massive budget increases.
The Select Committee report can be found at the link below and contains a full discussion of the Chiltern Tunnel options including costs.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/7/notes/division/11/index.htm
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clive said:ShootersHillGuru said:By way of example I thought I’d do a Trainline ticket search for this coming Friday 27th October which for me would be a realistic scenario as I would try and go to London and take in a game before returning on Sunday seeing friends and family in the process. Booking much further ahead might result in a saving but that’s not always or even often an option. The train times are something I would look to book. It takes me on average just under four hours by car to Greenwich and the fuel cost return is I suppose around £50. By the time I build into the journey travel to departing station and onward travel from Kings X to Greenwich and return the cost increases as does the time,to something closer to the journey time by car. It is of course for me anyway a nicer journey in my car. If we want to do the trip as a family you can see the cost is just ridiculous by train.
Types of Railcard
To find out more about a Railcard – including prices, eligibility, restrictions and more – click on the individual links below:
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This is a good piece but sadly not very recent. I doubt it’s got better since though.
https://www.vouchercloud.com/resources/train-prices-across-europe
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This will help, again journey time is mentioned but the effects on over crowding are obvious!0 -
ME14addick said:Our unelected Prime Minister Sunak quickly selling off HS2 assets at a loss, so that his decision cannot be reversed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67141579
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/govt-selling-off-hs2-land-at-a-loss-to-prevent-future-administrations-reversing-its-decision-361302/
This is not just spite, it's sabotage.
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Jints said:PragueAddick said:The problem with this summary is that it is suggesting the entire project was fundamentally flawed from the start, and, sadly, suggests an editorial agenda at work, which for me undermines the undoubtedly diligent work of the two journos who are credited. One of the big reasons why costs have risen is the need to dig tunnels in the Chilterns because the government caved in to local and very well-connected NIMBYs. And yes, all HS lines need to be more straight and level than conventional lines to facilitate the highest speeds, but all HS lines have curves, of course they do, FFS. Take a look at how HS1 approaches Ebbsfleet.
The Select Committee agreed with HS2 but did agree that a shorter extension of 2.6km would be appropriate at a cost of £47m, a trivial sum in the context of the scheme. This has been known about since 2016.
So (a) it wasn't the Government who "caved in", it was the Select Committee of MPs (form various parties) who ordered a modest change (b) the NIMBYs (if you can really call them that) did not get want they want at all (c) the costs were a tiny pecentage of the overall increased costs (d) they were already known about before the massive budget increases.
The Select Committee report can be found at the link below and contains a full discussion of the Chiltern Tunnel options including costs.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2017/7/notes/division/11/index.htm
https://www.constructionnews.co.uk/sections/news/hs2-plans-leave-no-room-for-mistakes-11-01-2012/So maybe the extent of the Nimby effect on costs depends on the start date for the calculation. Every year of delay adds to cost, so delays caused by local disputes have a cumulative effect on the budget beyond the one-off increase due to a specific alteration to a tunnel ( or anything else which is changed.Gareth Dennis (whom I lean on a lot for knowledge of these issues) has done a podcast on that article which I haven’t had a chance to listen to, once I have I will return to this. Although it is striking that nobody- neither media nor publicly commissioned report - can really nail down the costs (not even the starting cost) and explain each subsequent increase with sufficient authority that all other interested qualified people accept it.0 -
Cafc43v3r said:
This will help, again journey time is mentioned but the effects on over crowding are obvious!
Run one train a day and make sure it runs on time. Every day. Then bingo, reliability has just increased. Bonuses all round.4 -
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Stig said:
Shameless.
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