Surrey were definitely missing a front line spinner this week. I knew it was a spin friendly pitch, but I hadn't realised that in the Surrey second innings the 2 Notts spinners bowled all 53 overs! Quite extraordinary for just 2 bowlers to bowl all 53 overs.
It'll be interesting which bowlers England take to Pakistan, as I don't think it'll be as spin dominated as India was. A massive shame that Dawson is effectively retired from England duty, a 10fer and an unbeaten century in his latest match, and he's only a year older than Leach.
This season Dawson has 706 runs at 58.83 and 42 wickets at 24.24.
And Jacks bowled, after those two Notts spinners took all 10 wickets, 15 overs and failed to take a wicket.
As for England, of the three youngsters that they took to India, Bashir isn't first choice at Somerset and the other two have had disastrous seasons - Rehan Ahmed has taken 9 wickets at 64.66 and Hartley has 4 wickets at 68.25. Remember McCullum telling counties that they should be playing all three of them so that they gain that experience? Perhaps if matches were played at the right time of year for spinners, at the height of the summer, instead of most of them in April, May and September then they might get that.
Surrey were definitely missing a front line spinner this week. I knew it was a spin friendly pitch, but I hadn't realised that in the Surrey second innings the 2 Notts spinners bowled all 53 overs! Quite extraordinary for just 2 bowlers to bowl all 53 overs.
It'll be interesting which bowlers England take to Pakistan, as I don't think it'll be as spin dominated as India was. A massive shame that Dawson is effectively retired from England duty, a 10fer and an unbeaten century in his latest match, and he's only a year older than Leach.
This season Dawson has 706 runs at 58.83 and 42 wickets at 24.24.
And Jacks bowled, after those two Notts spinners took all 10 wickets, 15 overs and failed to take a wicket.
As for England, of the three youngsters that they took to India, Bashir isn't first choice at Somerset and the other two have had disastrous seasons - Rehan Ahmed has taken 9 wickets at 64.66 and Hartley has 4 wickets at 68.25. Remember McCullum telling counties that they should be playing all three of them so that they gain that experience? Perhaps if matches were played at the right time of year for spinners, at the height of the summer, instead of most of them in April, May and September then they might get that.
It was pretty obvious watching them bowl that neither Rehan nor Hartley are really FC standard spinners let alone Test spinners, tbf
I really do hope Virdi signs permanently. Obviously tragic circumstances but Worcs need a proper spinner and he's still young and clearly extremely gifted
In Div 1, looking at the English spinners with the most wickets this season, after Dawson with 42, in second place is Matt Parkinson with 27. At 52.77 though
If Jacks is Surrey's number one spinner then they don't really have a frontline spinner at all because he's taken 7 wickets this season and has, at the age of 25 (some 9 years older than Farhan Ahmed), just 44 wickets from 54 matches to his name. Bashir has 47 wickets and he's five years younger at 20 and has only played 18 matches. But I agree that, as he can't bat, Surrey probably isn't the place for Bashir and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to him when Surrey dropped him. He would probably have ended up like Moriarty or Virdi and going nowhere fast. Presumably, Bashir was let go not just because of Jacks, Moriarty and Virdi but because they also had in the same age group as Bashir, Tommy Ealham, who is still at Surrey but can't get near the red ball side.
7 wickets in two games to be fair to the guy.
With all 7 wickets in one game on a bunsen burner. If that one match were the criteria for success than 16 year old Farhan would be selected for England ahead of him. The telling stats are 44 wickets from 54 matches (37 wickets in his previous 53 games) at 42.61 at the age of almost 26. He's not a frontline red ball spinner on two fronts - one because he rarely plays red ball and two because when he does play, he simply does not regularly take wickets.
I'm not arguing that he is a frontline spinner nor am I arguing that he is international quality or even first class quality as a spinner. But 3 posts in a row you at best twisted facts to try and make your point, calling Cam Steel surreys one spinner, discounting Jacks wickets when comparing to the bowling of 2 opposition spinners and then presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season. Its misleading when it doesn't need to be. Your point isn't wrong so no need to misrepresent to make it.
I really do hope Virdi signs permanently. Obviously tragic circumstances but Worcs need a proper spinner and he's still young and clearly extremely gifted
I agree, hope he is a great success there. Definitely a good bowler and despite his well documented fitness and attitude issues does seem like a genuinely good bloke (his work with the homeless though a south London Sikh charity is incredible). Surrey dont deserve him frankly and his career will be much better served elsewhere.
If Jacks is Surrey's number one spinner then they don't really have a frontline spinner at all because he's taken 7 wickets this season and has, at the age of 25 (some 9 years older than Farhan Ahmed), just 44 wickets from 54 matches to his name. Bashir has 47 wickets and he's five years younger at 20 and has only played 18 matches. But I agree that, as he can't bat, Surrey probably isn't the place for Bashir and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to him when Surrey dropped him. He would probably have ended up like Moriarty or Virdi and going nowhere fast. Presumably, Bashir was let go not just because of Jacks, Moriarty and Virdi but because they also had in the same age group as Bashir, Tommy Ealham, who is still at Surrey but can't get near the red ball side.
7 wickets in two games to be fair to the guy.
With all 7 wickets in one game on a bunsen burner. If that one match were the criteria for success than 16 year old Farhan would be selected for England ahead of him. The telling stats are 44 wickets from 54 matches (37 wickets in his previous 53 games) at 42.61 at the age of almost 26. He's not a frontline red ball spinner on two fronts - one because he rarely plays red ball and two because when he does play, he simply does not regularly take wickets.
I'm not arguing that he is a frontline spinner nor am I arguing that he is international quality or even first class quality as a spinner. But 3 posts in a row you at best twisted facts to try and make your point, calling Cam Steel surreys one spinner, discounting Jacks wickets when comparing to the bowling of 2 opposition spinners and then presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season. Its misleading when it doesn't need to be. Your point isn't wrong so no need to misrepresent to make it.
I called Steel Surrey's number one spinner in the first post only because that's what I thought he was. I was prepared to accept your argument that he isn't because you pointed out that he doesn't play when Jacks does though that appears to have only happened once this season and statistically, that really is a moot point - Steel has 23 wickets at 27.65 and Jacks has 7 wickets at 26.85 this season and in their careers Steel has 60 wickets at 32.21 and Jacks has 44 wickets at 42.61. All 7 of Jacks' wickets were taken on a track where the ball was turning square. Joe Root could have done that.
You also say that I'm "presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season" but that is all I have for this season and is a small representation which is why I looked at his career, one where he is averaging less than one wicket a match. That is awful for someone who is meant to be a county number one spinner. In fact, Jacks has less wickets in the last four seasons (37 in total) than Dawson has taken this year. Which is why I concluded that Surrey do not have a number one spinner in the true sense. They play a batsman that can bowl spin which is why they pick the likes of Jacks and Steel and often, even when Jacks isn't available, don't bother with playing a spinner at all.
So we are both agreed. Surrey have stifled the careers of both Moriarty and Virid and had Bashir not been shown the door, he would be no way near the first team simply because, as you confirmed, Surrey wouldn't have played him due to his lack of ability with the bat. Which is why I concluded that as Bashir needs to leave Somerset (who already have a proper spinner) there would be absolutely no point him going back to them. In fact, Tommy Ealham should go back to Kent because he would get a game there and probably never will at Surrey unless he starts to average 50 plus with the bat in their 2s.
If Jacks is Surrey's number one spinner then they don't really have a frontline spinner at all because he's taken 7 wickets this season and has, at the age of 25 (some 9 years older than Farhan Ahmed), just 44 wickets from 54 matches to his name. Bashir has 47 wickets and he's five years younger at 20 and has only played 18 matches. But I agree that, as he can't bat, Surrey probably isn't the place for Bashir and it was probably the best thing that could have happened to him when Surrey dropped him. He would probably have ended up like Moriarty or Virdi and going nowhere fast. Presumably, Bashir was let go not just because of Jacks, Moriarty and Virdi but because they also had in the same age group as Bashir, Tommy Ealham, who is still at Surrey but can't get near the red ball side.
7 wickets in two games to be fair to the guy.
With all 7 wickets in one game on a bunsen burner. If that one match were the criteria for success than 16 year old Farhan would be selected for England ahead of him. The telling stats are 44 wickets from 54 matches (37 wickets in his previous 53 games) at 42.61 at the age of almost 26. He's not a frontline red ball spinner on two fronts - one because he rarely plays red ball and two because when he does play, he simply does not regularly take wickets.
I'm not arguing that he is a frontline spinner nor am I arguing that he is international quality or even first class quality as a spinner. But 3 posts in a row you at best twisted facts to try and make your point, calling Cam Steel surreys one spinner, discounting Jacks wickets when comparing to the bowling of 2 opposition spinners and then presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season. Its misleading when it doesn't need to be. Your point isn't wrong so no need to misrepresent to make it.
I called Steel Surrey's number one spinner in the first post only because that's what I thought he was. I was prepared to accept your argument that he isn't because you pointed out that he doesn't play when Jacks does though that appears to have only happened once this season and statistically, that really is a moot point - Steel has 23 wickets at 27.65 and Jacks has 7 wickets at 26.85 this season and in their careers Steel has 60 wickets at 32.21 and Jacks has 44 wickets at 42.61. All 7 of Jacks' wickets were taken on a track where the ball was turning square. Joe Root could have done that.
You also say that I'm "presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season" but that is all I have for this season and is a small representation which is why I looked at his career, one where he is averaging less than one wicket a match. That is awful for someone who is meant to be a county number one spinner. In fact, Jacks has less wickets in the last four seasons (37 in total) than Dawson has taken this year. Which is why I concluded that Surrey do not have a number one spinner in the true sense. They play a batsman that can bowl spin which is why they pick the likes of Jacks and Steel and often, even when Jacks isn't available, don't bother with playing a spinner at all.
So we are both agreed. Surrey have stifled the careers of both Moriarty and Virid and had Bashir not been shown the door, he would be no way near the first team simply because, as you confirmed, Surrey wouldn't have played him due to his lack of ability with the bat. Which is why I concluded that as Bashir needs to leave Somerset (who already have a proper spinner) there would be absolutely no point him going back to them. In fact, Tommy Ealham should go back to Kent because he would get a game there and probably never will at Surrey unless he starts to average 50 plus with the bat in their 2s.
Yes completely agree with your central point. That Surrey isn't a good place for spinners who can't bat. Recent attempts to turn Lawrence into an all rounder back this up.
Or surrey need to change approach under that famous quick bowler Gareth Batty.
long shot. I have 2 tickets for England v Australia ODI at Trent Bridge on 19th September . Unfortunately I'm unable to go through illness. Anyone interested?
Talking about spinners, there is a combined Essex/Kent 2nd XI playing Surrey 2nd XI currently going on. Surrey have scored to date 88 & 153-5 and Essex/Kent made 213. Of the 25 wickets to fall, 23 have gone to seamers. Of the 106 overs bowled, 15 have been bowled by spinners - Majid (10), Ealham (1) and Qadri (4).
There are no 2s red ball cricket, in the same way as there are no CC matches, played in August with most games being shunted to either end of the season. So, if spinners can't learn their craft in the CC or in the 2s, where do they? In essence, they are there to make up the numbers. And each and every year we ask the same question. Why do spinners take such few wickets?
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Excellent! Read earlier a few days ago it was possible. I also read something about Freddie leaving some role because of Trescothick
Flintoff is coming in as batting coach for the final test I think, this has freed Trescothick up to do the interim white ball stuff until January.
ok, that's more positive than what I thought I read. I thought it was because they 'weren't getting on', so I hope I mis-read as only glanced at it as was going into a meeting
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Excellent! Read earlier a few days ago it was possible. I also read something about Freddie leaving some role because of Trescothick
Flintoff is coming in as batting coach for the final test I think, this has freed Trescothick up to do the interim white ball stuff until January.
ok, that's more positive than what I thought I read. I thought it was because they 'weren't getting on', so I hope I mis-read as only glanced at it as was going into a meeting
I think both are right. He isn't working on the white ball stuff because he and Tres don't gel but Rob Key wants him involved still so he's taking Tres's place on the test team staff for this match. Would expect going forward one of them does white ball and the other does red ball
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Excellent! Read earlier a few days ago it was possible. I also read something about Freddie leaving some role because of Trescothick
Flintoff is coming in as batting coach for the final test I think, this has freed Trescothick up to do the interim white ball stuff until January.
ok, that's more positive than what I thought I read. I thought it was because they 'weren't getting on', so I hope I mis-read as only glanced at it as was going into a meeting
It was buttler and flintoff that werent getting on
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Excellent! Read earlier a few days ago it was possible. I also read something about Freddie leaving some role because of Trescothick
Flintoff is coming in as batting coach for the final test I think, this has freed Trescothick up to do the interim white ball stuff until January.
ok, that's more positive than what I thought I read. I thought it was because they 'weren't getting on', so I hope I mis-read as only glanced at it as was going into a meeting
It was buttler and flintoff that werent getting on
Thanks for the correction. Wonder if this means Tres stays on the white ball coaching staff and Flintoff stays with the red ball?
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Excellent! Read earlier a few days ago it was possible. I also read something about Freddie leaving some role because of Trescothick
Flintoff is coming in as batting coach for the final test I think, this has freed Trescothick up to do the interim white ball stuff until January.
ok, that's more positive than what I thought I read. I thought it was because they 'weren't getting on', so I hope I mis-read as only glanced at it as was going into a meeting
It was buttler and flintoff that werent getting on
Oh yes, my mistake, apologies - my opinion of Buttler has changed in the last 2 years
Quite heart-breaking what Gus Atkinson and his family have been through over the past four years. Court hearings in recent weeks to sentence the driver who killed his mother. All while he turned in record-breaking performances in his first tests.
Quite heart-breaking what Gus Atkinson and his family have been through over the past four years. Court hearings in recent weeks to sentence the driver who killed his mother. All while he turned in record-breaking performances in his first tests.
Wasn't aware of this at all. Been a tough few years for him with injuries too. Hopefully some closure comes at a similar time to his England career really taking off!
After what he's been through, perhaps it's not surprising Atkinson seems so steady on the pitch, some things are far more important than 5fers and centuries.
Comments
As for England, of the three youngsters that they took to India, Bashir isn't first choice at Somerset and the other two have had disastrous seasons - Rehan Ahmed has taken 9 wickets at 64.66 and Hartley has 4 wickets at 68.25. Remember McCullum telling counties that they should be playing all three of them so that they gain that experience? Perhaps if matches were played at the right time of year for spinners, at the height of the summer, instead of most of them in April, May and September then they might get that.
You also say that I'm "presenting Jacks wickets in 2 matches as figures for the season" but that is all I have for this season and is a small representation which is why I looked at his career, one where he is averaging less than one wicket a match. That is awful for someone who is meant to be a county number one spinner. In fact, Jacks has less wickets in the last four seasons (37 in total) than Dawson has taken this year. Which is why I concluded that Surrey do not have a number one spinner in the true sense. They play a batsman that can bowl spin which is why they pick the likes of Jacks and Steel and often, even when Jacks isn't available, don't bother with playing a spinner at all.
So we are both agreed. Surrey have stifled the careers of both Moriarty and Virid and had Bashir not been shown the door, he would be no way near the first team simply because, as you confirmed, Surrey wouldn't have played him due to his lack of ability with the bat. Which is why I concluded that as Bashir needs to leave Somerset (who already have a proper spinner) there would be absolutely no point him going back to them. In fact, Tommy Ealham should go back to Kent because he would get a game there and probably never will at Surrey unless he starts to average 50 plus with the bat in their 2s.
Or surrey need to change approach under that famous quick bowler Gareth Batty.
There are no 2s red ball cricket, in the same way as there are no CC matches, played in August with most games being shunted to either end of the season. So, if spinners can't learn their craft in the CC or in the 2s, where do they? In essence, they are there to make up the numbers. And each and every year we ask the same question. Why do spinners take such few wickets?
Baz to coach both red and white ball teams from January. Trescothick to take the white ball side to the West Indies.
Jailed for 8.5 years.
After what he's been through, perhaps it's not surprising Atkinson seems so steady on the pitch, some things are far more important than 5fers and centuries.