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Not enough home grown

edited June 2012 in General Charlton
Any one else feel the reasons England have lost their way now,is because of the lack of young blood being allowed to come through the ranks.
The top clubs want instant success so much,they haven't the time or paitence to let many young stars come through and the few we have got are not yet fully
skilled,apart from the exception of one or two.We keep changing the manager,when its the system itself that needs changing, years ago you were only allowed
upto 4 non english,now it appears to be the other way round.If it carries on,we'll be picking players from league 1 to make up a team.
It certainly doesn't seem to work that filling your team with exspensive imports, brings out the best in our players when they don't have enough of our players to start with, bring back the old league 1 days now that was English football at its exciting best.
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Comments

  • Yeah. Bring back the good old days of the 1970s when we dominated world cups.

    Who can forget 74 and 78 when we didn't even qualify.

    There are problems and we do need to make changes but harking back to a mythical past when everything was OK won't help.

    Look forward and give the current managers and players the thing you ask for: time.
  • Put Yann on the Eurostar back to France and re-sign Paul Benson...

    But seriously, when it comes down to it, if you gave me the choice of Charlton winning the league with eleven foreigners or England doing well I'd take Charlton every time.

    Also it's massively illegal to try and limit the number of players from the EU at a club anyway.
  • We're not producing enough decent player. Hopefully the new St. George's Centre, which should've been built 20 years ago will put things right (HA!)
  • Utter utter utter sh!te. And that is how it has been for years (aside from a blip Euro 96ish). Not sure what realistically we can do, the St George's Park centre is a step in the right direction. We could talk for days on here about the state of our national game, it is just boring now. Personally I have not supported or even got remotely excited about an England match since the days when Keegan and Brooking etc were playing. Have we signed anyone yet BTW?
  • Think people are missing the point about foreign imports. We have the only league in the world that is over saturated with foreign 'stars'. Not saying get rid of them, but let's be honest, for every Zola, klinsmann and Henry, there are 3 times the Mutu's, Nelson Vivas and Auelio's.
    With all the money in the top flight surely we can produce some decent players. Just ask any of the top flight bar Man Utd, how many players in your team have come up from there youth team?
  • You've only got to look at Real Madrid, Barca, Juve and Bayern Munich to see the benefit to the national team of having home grown talent in the club sides. 7 Juve players in that Italian team last night and There's 7 Bayern Munich players in the German side. This is the way that our teams should go but there has to be the will. When Chelsea or Man U or Man City sign a Balotelli or a Silva they don't go out and buy a Rooney or a Gerrard as a replacement. They bring in another Italian or Spaniard to fill the void and so the supply chain starts again.
  • Think people are missing the point about foreign imports. We have the only league in the world that is over saturated with foreign 'stars'. Not saying get rid of them, but let's be honest, for every Zola, klinsmann and Henry, there are 3 times the Mutu's, Nelson Vivas and Auelio's.
    With all the money in the top flight surely we can produce some decent players. Just ask any of the top flight bar Man Utd, how many players in your team have come up from there youth team?
    Producing young players takes time. Juve and Bayern have had their dry periods recently, which has allowed them to develop young talent. English fans want their club to be successful now, they can't wait. Charlton had a very promising young striker who didn't kick a ball last year but we had a 30+ striker starting every week who helped us win the division. I certainly wasn't complaining and I doubt many others were.
  • Which striker was that?
  • Se9, you are right. About players taking time but tell me this, why have we waited 20 years for us to get a national training centre?
    Teams like bayern have indeed had dry periods, but how strong is the German team? Now look at how many home grown players are in the German premier division compared to us.
    Not knocking imports, just the quality of imports
  • Not enough home grown........coaches
    This was the situation after the last World Cup, that the FA said would be addressed.
    • Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges
    • Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790
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  • Think people are missing the point about foreign imports. We have the only league in the world that is over saturated with foreign 'stars'. Not saying get rid of them, but let's be honest, for every Zola, klinsmann and Henry, there are 3 times the Mutu's, Nelson Vivas and Auelio's.
    With all the money in the top flight surely we can produce some decent players. Just ask any of the top flight bar Man Utd, how many players in your team have come up from there youth team?
    There's an abundance of foreign imports - some crap - in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany so can't see that it's the reason. I think that Floyd has hit the nail on the head.

    You also have to remember that Italy and Germany are simply bigger countries.
  • edited June 2012
    According to UEFA Coaching Convention Data from 2008 there were 895 A Licence Coaches in England. This data was presented in the Football Association's Discussion Document for Coaching 2008-2012.
    The following is a quote from the FA:

    "In comparison to our European counterparts, we do not place the same degree of importance on the status of coaching in this country. This must change if we are going to progress".

    The FA looked at the number of A Licence coaches in other European nations - France has 2,400, Germany has 5,500, Italy 1,298 and Spain has 12,720 A Licence coaches.

  • Very good point floyd
  • If English players become good enough then they will break into the top sides.

    Why then aren't they becoming good enough? Amount of coaching time? Do more of our kids spend more time on their computers than outdoors compared to other countries? Are our kids not as dedicated etc?

    I don't know, I haven't got or seen the data. I think changing to the smaller sided games for longer is a good idea and kids should be encouraged to express themselves & take risks - the win at all costs mentality that's voiced from parents & coaches needs to take a back seat for a bit until kids get older.

    Need kids who are free from pressure who can try passes, tricks, dribbles, passing & moving etc, without the worry of being bellowed at.
  • Yep make Floyd right re the coaching.

    Wasn't Lilleshall billed as being able to do all the things the new national academy is supposed to ?
    Which striker was that?
    Michael Smith - did very well in the few games he had at Accrington (one in two goal ratio) but would Charlton have got promoted with him upfront ? Probably not.

  • By the way, the above isn't a flawless example of the point, just trying to make it relevant to us.
  • <
    There's an abundance of foreign imports - some crap - in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany so can't see that it's the reason. I think that Floyd has hit the nail on the head.

    You also have to remember that Italy and Germany are simply bigger countries.
    It's a good point Morts in the case of Germany, but per capita figures I've conjured up below dont make encouraging reading for the future!

    Italy has a million or so less people, but in a slightly larger land mass, Germany has 20 million more people, Spain about 15 million fewer.

    So it works out that
    Germany has 1 coach per 2,357 population
    Italy has 1 coach per 2,005
    Spain has I coach per 1 coach per 1,997
    England (and Wales) has 1 coach per 18,418

  • If English players become good enough then they will break into the top sides.

    Why then aren't they becoming good enough? Amount of coaching time? Do more of our kids spend more time on their computers than outdoors compared to other countries? Are our kids not as dedicated etc?

    I don't know, I haven't got or seen the data. I think changing to the smaller sided games for longer is a good idea and kids should be encouraged to express themselves & take risks - the win at all costs mentality that's voiced from parents & coaches needs to take a back seat for a bit until kids get older.

    Need kids who are free from pressure who can try passes, tricks, dribbles, passing & moving etc, without the worry of being bellowed at.
    I never thought i would say this but i agree with a Millwall fan.I would just add that the basic core technique of our players is inferior to the Spanish,French,Italians and most of the other countries.We need to start young and get these youngsters to work on trapping a ball and passing it accurately.Until we improve on the basics we will always lag behind the rest of the top nations.Well done Roy Hodgson on getting us through to the quarter finals.

  • Danny Mills was on Breakfast TV and he got it right - it has to start with an improvement in how kids are coached. So it's a 20-year plan we need. Roy did a good job, but appointing a new manager for the top job is like re-arranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
  • I make no apologies for banging on about this. I remember very clearly the moans and groans back in the 70's. There were endless droney pub discussions centred around 1976 when Antonin Panenka's 'falling leaf' penalty in the European Championship final showed the world what skills practising could achieve. Floyd Montana's statistics above show that we still haven't learnt the lessons, although we do have a new Wembley to showcase our talents.
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  • <
    There's an abundance of foreign imports - some crap - in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany so can't see that it's the reason. I think that Floyd has hit the nail on the head.

    You also have to remember that Italy and Germany are simply bigger countries.
    So it works out that
    Germany has 1 coach per 2,357 population
    Italy has 1 coach per 2,005
    Spain has I coach per 1 coach per 1,997
    England (and Wales) has 1 coach per 18,418

    that is simply frightening
  • When do the dutch enter this debate?
  • Also a problem the other way in that English players don't travel. The only Englishman abroad I can think of is Joe Cole last year in France (Beckham too I guess)
  • When do the dutch enter this debate?
    When they get their bikes back ;-)
  • Also a problem the other way in that English players don't travel. The only Englishman abroad I can think of is Joe Cole last year in France (Beckham too I guess)
    Excuse me, you're forgetting one Chris Dickson !

    But you're right though.,,
  • edited June 2012
    We need:
    1. More coaches qualified to a higher level (a point already excellently made by Floyd).
    2. To lose the "hoof it" mentality. Football for youngsters should not be seen as win at all costs. It should be primarily about enjoying the game, secondarily about developing skills and only after those two about winning. Coaches need to understand this and parents need to be educated that bellowing "get stuck in" and this like is not helpful.
    3. Better facilities. My boy's team (not that he's likely to be a professional, but I have high hopes for one of his friends) has recently had a few training sessions cancelled due to bad weather. Meanwhile the sports hall in our village remains firmly padlocked because the council cannot afford to employ any staff to keep it open. If the weather is that bad that they can't train outside, they should be indoors playing futsal (or similar).
    4. To stop fannying around and get intermediate sized football organised across the board for 10-13 year olds. The step up from mini soccer to full sized soccer is just too big and means that teams become dependant on having one or two big lads who can thump a ball over the head of a keeper who hasn't got a chance of defending and 8' high goal.
    5. To rip those bloody Playstations out of the wall and teach our kids to live in the real world rather than pixelland (not that I've personally dared to try this with mine).
  • Thing is, why would English players move abroad for a pay cut?
  • And then when we do develop a player who can trap the ball and has that bit of magic, we either don't know what to do with them (joe cole, matt le tissier) or we train the magic out of them (rooney).
  • But we don't think in terms of 10 or 20 year development programmes, of grass roots or of coaching.

    We want NOW. A player has a poor game so he's " s*** get rid."

    Hodgson was slammed for taking younger players instead of the same old same old. Forget giving them tournament experience we must win now.

    The sad thing is nothing will change. We look at the coach stats but out clubs will still appoint a newly retired player with no badges and fans will say medals are more important than coaching qualifications.

    The extra money from the Sky deal will go to the same mega rich clubs, not grass roots football.

    The new academy rules allows the EPL clubs to take the best players earlier but kills off dozens of strong academies at league clubs. There is less incentive for both sets of clubs to develop kids as the little clubs will get peanuts for any decent prospect and the big clubs get who they want cheap either way.

    It can be changed but it won't because we blame the manager, society (the Xbox arguement), the players etc etc but won't change the fundemental structure of football from age 5.

    Keep on doing what you've always done and you get what you've always got.


  • But we don't think in terms of 10 or 20 year development programmes, of grass roots or of coaching.

    We want NOW. A player has a poor game so he's " s*** get rid."

    Hodgson was slammed for taking younger players instead of the same old same old. Forget giving them tournament experience we must win now.

    The sad thing is nothing will change. We look at the coach stats but out clubs will still appoint a newly retired player with no badges and fans will say medals are more important than coaching qualifications.

    The extra money from the Sky deal will go to the same mega rich clubs, not grass roots football.

    The new academy rules allows the EPL clubs to take the best players earlier but kills off dozens of strong academies at league clubs. There is less incentive for both sets of clubs to develop kids as the little clubs will get peanuts for any decent prospect and the big clubs get who they want cheap either way.

    It can be changed but it won't because we blame the manager, society (the Xbox arguement), the players etc etc but won't change the fundemental structure of football from age 5.

    Keep on doing what you've always done and you get what you've always got.


    Spot on. In the case of England, I think the supporters certainly play their part in the shambles of it all.

    Everyone talks about 'no expectations' yet when we go out on a penalty shootout to a decent Italian side, it's all about pointing the finger. Idiots.
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