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Have We Got A Better Team Than The Team That Finished 9th?
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8 games in, and we're still unbeaten, I think we'll have had a cracking season if we finish in the top 10.1
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I think we are just over halfway through team rebuilding. One maybe two in January and some more in the summer. This season is all about laying foundations.
I don't think we will finish anywhere near playoffs but I can see that there is a lot of potential with several decent additions.
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This squad was largely assembled in the first part of the summer window, as the League One champions were, unlike the 9th place team (Fuller only arrived after the season started). That is good. Vetokele looks like an outstanding purchase, and Buyens could have gone to a UCL/Europe league playing club quite easily.
However the 2012 season was marked by a lot of bunching in mid table. 9th was 9th but I think we over-performed with that squad, and it could as easily have been 14th or so if we had not hit stride late on. Wiggins return had a lot to do with that, I think.
My main worry is that the first 15 or so players are quality - especially if Chris Solly, bless him, can play most games - but the squad is weak. I would be happy with 9th if this is largely the squad we will have to stick with.0 -
To answer the question....not yet, but we have the core of a promotion challenging team. agree with @shooters hill guru. If the owner decides the riches of the premier league are worth shooting for, say next season, then we have a good platform in place to push on. I reckon we are a tenth place team at the moment.1
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Bump! I wonder if peoples opinions have changed having ridden a rough October when injuries took their toll?Stig said:Very early days, but it's certainly looking better:
This graph will look interesting end of November...looks like we were stuck on a point a game both seasons up to match 15
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@Stig can we have an updated graph please? It'd be interesting to compare our season to date with the one 2 years ago.seriously_red said:
Bump! I wonder if peoples opinions have changed having ridden a rough October when injuries took their toll?Stig said:Very early days, but it's certainly looking better:
This graph will look interesting end of November...looks like we were stuck on a point a game both seasons up to match 152 -
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Stop trying to get others to start threads as much as you do.paulie8290 said:Yes next question
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Thanks @stigStig said:
So to have a better team (in what some might say is a better league this time?) we need to avoid flat lining through winter. I think our quality pitch will help. Once again, our next few games will determine which line we are on - towards 65 or 75 points.
Let's see how long it takes to get to 40 points - secure the right players in the window and it may well be a lot quicker that two seasons ago.0 -
I think we have a more capable team but the 2012 13 team looked more refined but less potent. However if we can get to Christmas with just 2 more defeats then we should be very happy and hopeful of playoffs as we had 9 by Christmas in that season. Our defence and vetokele have been great, cousins decent and everyone else a bit up and down.0
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I think after Watford, we need to reopen this discussion. I know tensions in the dressing room have been high and everything Charlton as of late has been kinda Meh. But aside from the problems in the dressing room and our anger about everything else; on the field, is this team still better than the team that finished 9th?0
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Not a chance. That side would have never let us down the way this one has been lately.
You don't get beat 5-0 by a fellow Championship side unless you don't give 100%. That Chris Powell side always have 100% for the cause, and there was a lot more ability in there than gets credit for.
I personally think Yann is a much better player than Igor.5 -
Always gave 100%, what about the Sheffield United Quarter Final?0
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My view is that apart from Hamer, Kermorgant and Stephens we have better players now. The problems are a) that those three were absolutely key and would make a great difference to our current side and b) the current lot appear to be thoroughly disillusioned/never had any feeling of belonging in the first place.0
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Better players now, but the Powell team had balls.9
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If I was combining the teams I would have Vet, JBG, Cousins and TBH from this years team as starters.
Solly, Wiggins remain the same as does JJ but I would prefer the younger JJ.
Otherwise I would have Hamer, Morrison, Yann and Stephens.
So broadly the same number from each.
The big difference however is squad togetherness and manager.
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My opinion hasn't changed. No way is this team better than the team that finished 9th. Let's not forget the team that finished 9th were playing on a bog of a pitch week in week out. A fa cup run which meant games were pushed back to Saturday Tuesday Saturday. Imagine our lot now playing that many games.seriously_red said:
Bump! I wonder if peoples opinions have changed having ridden a rough October when injuries took their toll?Stig said:Very early days, but it's certainly looking better:
This graph will look interesting end of November...looks like we were stuck on a point a game both seasons up to match 15
Lots of shit going on behind the scenes re contracts running down. Give me that team back with a few of our current team any day of the week.
I'd take Hamer back with henderson keeping him on his toes.
I'd take morro back.
I'd have dale 'want to move up north' Stephens and diego over yoni 'don't clap the fans' buyens.
And Yann up top with the old igor or watt.
Edit. Apologies the team that finished 9th wasn't playing in the fa cup but was still playing on a dire pitch with contracts running down but the team didn't change much from the one that finished 9th.4 -
We're dead even on when we finished 9th I believe, I'm giving GL until Brentford to decide if he is good enough (if he ever gets his Work Permit, that is)0
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In a perverse way I think poor finances can help a team, as long as players are getting paid. There probably won't be many incoming players so it's a consistent, tight group. You perhaps have a chip on your shoulder so want to out-perform bigger, more lavish clubs. You're more likely to have honest pros rather than mercenaries and expensive loans.
Whilst what we have on paper may or may not be better than the 9th place team, morale is non-existent, the constant ingoings and outgoings (of often unwanted players) make unity difficult, and poor treatment of fan favourites has a knock-on effect to other players.
Maybe the likes of Yann saw this current scenario coming. Can you blame them for leaving?8 - Sponsored links:
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I prefer Henderson to Hamer, although BH was certainly better than any of the other keepers that have played this season. Never rated Stephens; moved the ball too slowly and tended to hide in gamesSillybilly said:My view is that apart from Hamer, Kermorgant and Stephens we have better players now. The problems are a) that those three were absolutely key and would make a great difference to our current side and b) the current lot appear to be thoroughly disillusioned/never had any feeling of belonging in the first place.
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Individually, maybe. As a team, no.1
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Henderson (not injured) > Hamer
Solly then > Solly now
Wiggins then > Wiggins now
Ben Haim > Taylor/Dervite
Morrison > Bikey
Gudmundsson > Wagstaff
Stephens > (Unmotivated) Buyens
Jackson then > Jackson now
Cousins > Kerkar/Pritchard
Igor > BWP
Yann > Tucudean (Watt hasn't played enough yet)
So that makes 6-5 to the old lot.
Add in the depth like Fuller, Haynes, Cort, Hollands, Hughes and Button and that makes it more clear.1 -
Notice people bring up the Sheffield United game as a way to beat the stick at our former side/manager as some weirdly like to do.
On that day the team didn't perform - no doubts about that. But they still cared and it still hurt them to know they had blown it. That can't be denied IMO.
Thats a big, big difference from the team on Saturday who not only didn't perform, but seemingly just didn't care.1 -
I think we have but I also think the Championship has gone up a level,we need to up our game or be dragged down to the level the teams below are at1
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Scrolling back through this thread laughing at many posts! Including my own.0
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I think we had a stronger squad then, especially when you look at those we have now (more plentiful yes but not better)... it's embarrassing and impressive at the same time.
1 Ben Hamer
1 Stephen Henderson
23 Lawrie Wilson
2 Lawrie Wilson
3 Cedric Evina
3 Joe Gomez
4 Johnnie Jackson
4 Johnnie Jackson
5 Michael Morrison
5 Michael Morrison
6 Matt Taylor
5 Miloš Veljković
15 Yado Mambo
6 André Bikey
7 Danny Green
7 Jóhann Berg Guðmundsson
12 Salim Kerkar
8 Frédéric Bulot
14 Bradley Pritchard
10 Franck Moussa
32 Callum Harriott
11 Callum Harriott
17 Jordan Cook
12 Francis Coquelin
13 John Sullivan
13 Dillon Phillips
10 Bradley Wright-Phillips
14 Igor Vetokele
44 Dorian Dervite
15 Oguchi Onyewu
16 Rhoys Wiggins
16 Rhoys Wiggins
21 Mark Gower
17 Yoni Buyens
9 Danny Haynes
18 Simon Church
38 Adebayo Azeez
19 Zak Ansah
20 Chris Solly
20 Chris Solly
22 Danny Hollands
21 Morgan Fox
2 Andrew Hughes
22 Loïc Nego
28 Leon Cort
23 Joe Pigott
8 Dale Stephens
24 Jordan Cousins
11 Scott Wagstaff
25 Kadell Daniel
18 Yann Kermorgant
32 Tony Watt
19 Ricardo Fuller
27 Jack Munns
26 Jonathan Obika
28 Harry Osborne
34 Michael Smith
29 George Țucudean
27 David Button
30 Nick Pope
No Number Florent Rouamba
31 Harry Lennon
Tried to match them as best I could but these are all extras that we have this year.
26 Tal Ben Haim
33 Oliver Muldoon
36 Marko Dmitrović
38 Terell Thomas
41 Dimitar Mitov
43 Karlan Ahearne-Grant
44 Neil Etheridge
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Reckon the only real match there is between Bradley Pritchard and Franck Moussa... Both have always done well at League One level but both have struggled since going up a level
(Although in Moussa's defence, his injury problems havent helped)1 -
If we still had Kermorgant, Hamer. Morrison, Dervite and Poyet I do not think we would be in a relegation tussle. Stephens I can do without. Also the younger JJ's form is a factor. Not the same player two years on, though even then he was not the quickest. Also I give you Wilson two years ago vs Wilson now; you can say the same for Wiggins and Solly based on games played and form .All made a better team contribution two seasons ago. And I accept that Poyet was not on the pitch when we finished 9th before anyone points that out.
But the question posed was whether we have got a better team, not whether player for player we think we have more talent. As of today (Jan 22nd) I think the answer is clearly "no" and that we would mostly be more than happy to settle for 10th to 14th place if it was offered tonight. We need an urgent turnaround to start looking like any sort of "team" and I'd back the Powell team to take points off the current lot in a hypothetical match. (Mind you I'm not great at picking winners)
Some of the earlier optimism in this thread is interesting to read with the benefit of hindsight.1
