The way I see it, English football is a disgrace. I'm long, long past having any other view than the national team and the FA have been an embarrassment to me since I've been following them since the early 90s. In my lifetime, only euro 96 was the tournament I can say I was proud to be an England fan. Some may think that's being overly harsh, but I believe in looking at it from the facts.
It will take us years to catch up and overtake and whether or not we can actually do that given the way our national game is set up is questionable. Until the FA grow some balls and accept responsibility for letting the Premier League destroy the national game, nothing will change. What they can do I don't know, but I know we have to do something.
For me the appointment of Allardyce is actually a good thing in the context of where we are as a nation now. He doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the clubs he's been associated with and the style of football he has sometimes chosen to adopt. However, he's organised, committed and passionate, and we are that bad, that we need to start somewhere, so why not go back to basics.
I hope that Allardyce gives some of them a kick up the backside. I'm not the biggest fan of rugby and it pains me to admit it, but their ethics and the way they conduct themselves is something we could learn from. I see the modern day footballer and on the whole I think they're a bunch of posers who have been given too much too soon. I know that's not the case for each one, for example I think Kane has a fantastic attitude. But the dressing room culture is too soft. They need a rocket up their backside and someone needs to bring them down a peg or 3 and tell them they're not as good as they think they are. I genuinely believe no one ever tells them this and they live in their club bubble.
You may disagree with me but it's just my attitude to work. I work in sales, if I'm not hitting the numbers there will be frank discussions as to why, but I might get chastised. It's life, you get up and you make sure you try to address it. With players like Roomey and Sterling, I don't imagine they get held to account and told, quite honestly, you've been shit, sort it out
For me if they then can't take that, then they're weak of character and should be f***** off for someone who can take it. There's no accountability, they need to step up, or we're just going to be having a similar thread post WC 2018
Good! We can't play intricate football, so why try. I'm looking forward to seeing an organised team with a bit of bite kicking Ronaldo and co. up in the air, they will not like it one bit.
The way I see it, English football is a disgrace. I'm long, long past having any other view than the national team and the FA have been an embarrassment to me since I've been following them since the early 90s. In my lifetime, only euro 96 was the tournament I can say I was proud to be an England fan. Some may think that's being overly harsh, but I believe in looking at it from the facts.
It will take us years to catch up and overtake and whether or not we can actually do that given the way our national game is set up is questionable. Until the FA grow some balls and accept responsibility for letting the Premier League destroy the national game, nothing will change. What they can do I don't know, but I know we have to do something.
For me the appointment of Allardyce is actually a good thing in the context of where we are as a nation now. He doesn't get the credit he deserves because of the clubs he's been associated with and the style of football he has sometimes chosen to adopt. However, he's organised, committed and passionate, and we are that bad, that we need to start somewhere, so why not go back to basics.
I hope that Allardyce gives some of them a kick up the backside. I'm not the biggest fan of rugby and it pains me to admit it, but their ethics and the way they conduct themselves is something we could learn from. I see the modern day footballer and on the whole I think they're a bunch of posers who have been given too much too soon. I know that's not the case for each one, for example I think Kane has a fantastic attitude. But the dressing room culture is too soft. They need a rocket up their backside and someone needs to bring them down a peg or 3 and tell them they're not as good as they think they are. I genuinely believe no one ever tells them this and they live in their club bubble.
You may disagree with me but it's just my attitude to work. I work in sales, if I'm not hitting the numbers there will be frank discussions as to why, but I might get chastised. It's life, you get up and you make sure you try to address it. With players like Roomey and Sterling, I don't imagine they get held to account and told, quite honestly, you've been shit, sort it out
For me if they then can't take that, then they're weak of character and should be f***** off for someone who can take it. There's no accountability, they need to step up, or we're just going to be having a similar thread post WC 2018
Great post @cabbles Exactly how I think of the current England team. What you said there reminds me of an interview with Allardyce's first team coach at Sunderland I read two months ago. Here's what he said and you can kind of see why Allardyce is the man England need.
Sam's very demanding, he's very demanding of the players and his staff and he's very honest. There are no punches pulled, you know if he’s not happy. But I think that brings a clarity to it as well. There’s no in between with him. Personally, you know where you stand and that can only be a good thing. I remember as a player, you prefer that. You don’t need to be told half-truths. He tells it like it is and he's very fair with it as well. I think that’s the main thing he's brought to the club.
I just feel that they get such an easy ride. I know the old kick up the backside routine won't work with everyone but the way those players reacted after the Iceland game was pathetic. The obligatory heads in their hands routine and laying on the floor as if they'd just lost a final was disgraceful. If I was Hodgson I would've been out there telling them to stand up and accept their weak performances like men.
For me there's no culture of accepting responsibility. I would even go far as to say to someone like Rooney, you may be record goalscorer but your intl career has been shit IMO, you haven't won anything, you've hardly contributed in tournaments. All your goals are qualifiers, friendlies or penalties that ultimately mean nothing when you look back at it.
I'm using this in the extreme but my point is I bet he hasn't had to answer to anyone since Ferguson. If he's got anything about him he would respond to that and try and give us one more tournament before he retires. That's honestly how I feel about how they need to be dealt with, especially him as captain.
Sod pandering to him and consulting who he thinks should be next manager. It's a joke
I had a bust up with my mate a few weeks back on our whatsapp group. I was basically saying Rooney should retire from the intl game because he's physique is such that the pace of his decline will be more rapid than say other players. The modern game is such that pace is hugely important, and if you don't have it then you need to either have exceptional skill/touch (his is okay), or have the ability to conduct the game from midfield. England and Man United have opted for the later, thinking he could adapt his game.
However it hasn't worked, nor will it work because Roomey has spent the majority of his career up top. He won't have that in built Scholes sense of when and how to make those late runs into the box, which is what man untied think, or he thinks he can do. It's a bit insulting to Scholes as well, these comparisons and assumptions he can fill that role.
I truly believe his career is now over. Not over as in he won't play much anymore, unfortunately I think we'll see him in an England shirt again in 2018 if we qualify. For me he'll become a shitter version of Kevin Nolan. Ie same role, less goals, less effective
If I had my way he would never had played for us again after he gave us two fingers walking off in Croatia in 2006. And having seen what he's done for us since I don't think we would have missed him when it matters one bit.
I disagree about Rooney. He remains a talented player and has (now) a great attitude and a lot of experience. The trick is to find a role that accepts he is a different player and uses his attributes to the maximum. I would then look at character as being just as important as ability - that is all the different aspects of character. A player like Hart would have a lot of proving to do! Not because he lacks confidence or ability, but we can't have a keeper who can't channel his emotions and focus.
Maybe a good starting point would be to find a style that will be effective - It will clearly have to be strong defensively and build the team around that. Picking the right players for that style and drumming into them what that style is. I think Hodgson in all his time as manager never nailed this crucial element which is incredible really!
Big Sam doesn't have to prove anybody right or wrong. He just has to have a plan and stick to it and not try to be too clever. It seems to be a trait in England managers that they may feel they have to justify their huge salary by trying surprising and unusual things. We need Big Sam just to manage, not try to out think himself. Could be interesting. I am optimistic in all honesty. Also, I would like to see an England cap becoming special again, and not something that is handed out to anybody who has had a good couple of months!
Still think Rooney has 2 more years at least in International football - if not more. Maybe not first choice, or captain (however were not exactly over flowing with candidates). Big Sam is notorious for giving older players a new lease of life. Rooney is only 30.
Still think Rooney has 2 more years at least in International football - if not more. Maybe not first choice, or captain (however were not exactly over flowing with candidates). Big Sam is notorious for giving older players a new lease of life. Rooney is only 30.
Technically yes. But mentally, I think he blew it in the Iceland game, and showed it isn't just fitness that undermines him - he lost the ability to trap the ball all over again, just like in 2006 and 2010.
They were all bad, granted, and I'd LOVE to know how and why that happened. But Wayne was the man who could and should have pulled them all together. But he didn't do anything to save the game. In fact, he made it worse. I thought he did well in the previous games, looked the part against Russia and Wales (he made Ramsey look like an idiot quite consistently) but if he can fold so easily, and so crucially, then I wouldn't mind at all if he gave it up. If he does continue to play for England, we can only hope Sam knows how to fix that mental block that made him so abysmal.
Andy Carroll at CF, Ryan Shawcross at CH, get the ball forward early, two wingers getting down the line and getting crosses into the box. No tippy tappy nonsense anymore, prima donna's left at home, the press given short shrift....what's not to like. Johnny Foreigner is in trouble.
Still think Rooney has 2 more years at least in International football - if not more. Maybe not first choice, or captain (however were not exactly over flowing with candidates). Big Sam is notorious for giving older players a new lease of life. Rooney is only 30.
Technically yes. But mentally, I think he blew it in the Iceland game, and showed it isn't just fitness that undermines him - he lost the ability to trap the ball all over again, just like in 2006 and 2010.
They were all bad, granted, and I'd LOVE to know how and why that happened. But Wayne was the man who could and should have pulled them all together. But he didn't do anything to save the game. In fact, he made it worse. I thought he did well in the previous games, looked the part against Russia and Wales (he made Ramsey look like an idiot quite consistently) but if he can fold so easily, and so crucially, then I wouldn't mind at all if he gave it up. If he does continue to play for England, we can only hope Sam knows how to fix that mental block that made him so abysmal.
Great post, the bit Ive highlighted, I'm glad someone else has noticed it.
For such a talented player I don't just believe you can lose your first touch.
His head doesn't work quick enough now, you can see what he wants to do but his body doesn't react as quick as his head. The amount of times he got caught in possession and had the ball nicked off him was ridiculous.
Give him time and space and yes the world class player comes back pinging balls everywhere, however the other teams sussed it, close him down quick and it pains me to say it but hes pretty useless now.
Remember him bursting on the scene in the Euros (12 years ago? Fck me) and just loved watching him.
Still think Rooney has 2 more years at least in International football - if not more. Maybe not first choice, or captain (however were not exactly over flowing with candidates). Big Sam is notorious for giving older players a new lease of life. Rooney is only 30.
Technically yes. But mentally, I think he blew it in the Iceland game, and showed it isn't just fitness that undermines him - he lost the ability to trap the ball all over again, just like in 2006 and 2010.
They were all bad, granted, and I'd LOVE to know how and why that happened. But Wayne was the man who could and should have pulled them all together. But he didn't do anything to save the game. In fact, he made it worse. I thought he did well in the previous games, looked the part against Russia and Wales (he made Ramsey look like an idiot quite consistently) but if he can fold so easily, and so crucially, then I wouldn't mind at all if he gave it up. If he does continue to play for England, we can only hope Sam knows how to fix that mental block that made him so abysmal.
Great post, the bit Ive highlighted, I'm glad someone else has noticed it.
For such a talented player I don't just believe you can lose your first touch.
His head doesn't work quick enough now, you can see what he wants to do but his body doesn't react as quick as his head. The amount of times he got caught in possession and had the ball nicked off him was ridiculous.
Give him time and space and yes the world class player comes back pinging balls everywhere, however the other teams sussed it, close him down quick and it pains me to say it but hes pretty useless now.
Remember him bursting on the scene in the Euros (12 years ago? Fck me) and just loved watching him.
I third this, the number of times the ball rolled under his feet during the Iceland game was ridiculous. Also, his strolling around near the defense meant that Wilshere was not able to start deep and drive forward, which is what he is so good at. Were it up to me, Rooney would be gently ushered away during this cycle. Playing him in midfield was a terrible mistake. Hodgson was, up until then, a pretty good tactician, but he just seemed to completely implode in the build-up to the tournament.
Personally I'd have gone for Bilic, but in the last few days I've come to think we've tried the safe options and Big Sam will bring his own progressive ideas and is a brilliant man manager. Certainly feel a lot more positive about his appointment than I did Roy's.
Andy Carroll at CF, Ryan Shawcross at CH, get the ball forward early, two wingers getting down the line and getting crosses into the box. No tippy tappy nonsense anymore, prima donna's left at home, the press given short shrift....what's not to like. Johnny Foreigner is in trouble.
Tutt-Tutt, I appreciate you know quite a bit about tactics and set up given your experience. Do you believe the current crop of players technically good enough to play a more progressive brand of football? I'm not being flippant here, as I value your knowledge.
I believe we have some decent young players, but are they good enough to play any other football than an organised, structured old school approach. I'm genuinely of the opinion that until our whole system is pretty much broken down and rebuilt again, much like Germany did post 2002 WC or Iceland did, or Wales did with Garry Speed AND the money in the game and the premier league is somehow reigned in, then big Sam is about the most appropriate option.
I think we're still miles behind in terms of ever winning a tournament. There's been so many false dawns that I just want blood, guts and fight for the shirt now. That's how low my expectations are. I welcome the appointment because I respect Allardyce and everything he's achieved. Let's hope he can get us playing with passion again, regardless of how direct that may be
@cabbies. I think we should stop trying to play like Spain or Italy or Germany or whoever is the flavour of the month and play like a British team. I was being flippant about Carroll and Shawcross, but we do need to play the way English players are used to playing and in a system they are comfortable with, instead of chopping and changing. Leicester showed the way last season.
On the wider issues, the premier league academies are producing players who have natural footballing ability, but can only play in a certain way and cannot adapt or think for themselves, let alone gell as a team. I watched the England U19s play a couple of matches in the current tournament, in which they looked like a collection of individuals with no real tactical nous or team play. Identikit players who lack footballing intelligence and are more concerned with their own performance or how they look, than anything else.
A big bug-bear of mine at present is meaningless possession, not only with England, but at all levels. There is a tendency these days to pass the ball backwards when gaining possession and then pass it around the back before thinking about passing it forward. Midfielders pass the responsibility of making a forward pass to defenders, who have less ability on the ball. Possession for possession sake. I will be interested to see if Allardyce preaches getting it forward into the last third early and putting the opposition under early pressure, as his team's have done in domestic football.
@cabbies. I think we should stop trying to play like Spain or Italy or Germany or whoever is the flavour of the month and play like a British team. I was being flippant about Carroll and Shawcross, but we do need to play the way English players are used to playing and in a system they are comfortable with, instead of chopping and changing. Leicester showed the way last season.
On the wider issues, the premier league academies are producing players who have natural footballing ability, but can only play in a certain way and cannot adapt or think for themselves, let alone gell as a team. I watched the England U19s play a couple of matches in the current tournament, in which they looked like a collection of individuals with no real tactical nous or team play. Identikit players who lack footballing intelligence and are more concerned with their own performance or how they look, than anything else.
A big bug-bear of mine at present is meaningless possession, not only with England, but at all levels. There is a tendency these days to pass the ball backwards when gaining possession and then pass it around the back before thinking about passing it forward. Midfielders pass the responsibility of making a forward pass to defenders, who have less ability on the ball. Possession for possession sake. I will be interested to see if Allardyce preaches getting it forward into the last third early and putting the opposition under early pressure, as his team's have done in domestic football.
Great post, really like reading your analysis having doen my badges up to Eufa B, the bit highlighted was how England played the last 10 minutes against the mighty Iceland being 2-1 down.
@cabbies. I think we should stop trying to play like Spain or Italy or Germany or whoever is the flavour of the month and play like a British team. I was being flippant about Carroll and Shawcross, but we do need to play the way English players are used to playing and in a system they are comfortable with, instead of chopping and changing. Leicester showed the way last season.
On the wider issues, the premier league academies are producing players who have natural footballing ability, but can only play in a certain way and cannot adapt or think for themselves, let alone gell as a team. I watched the England U19s play a couple of matches in the current tournament, in which they looked like a collection of individuals with no real tactical nous or team play. Identikit players who lack footballing intelligence and are more concerned with their own performance or how they look, than anything else.
A big bug-bear of mine at present is meaningless possession, not only with England, but at all levels. There is a tendency these days to pass the ball backwards when gaining possession and then pass it around the back before thinking about passing it forward. Midfielders pass the responsibility of making a forward pass to defenders, who have less ability on the ball. Possession for possession sake. I will be interested to see if Allardyce preaches getting it forward into the last third early and putting the opposition under early pressure, as his team's have done in domestic football.
Absolutely spot-on with so many points there mate.
We keep trying to copy other nations, and have consequently lost all of our footballing indentity.
Sam will also cut out all this posession based football, which everybody seems to have become obsessed about. I have heard so many 'experts' during the Euro's claim some kind of victory as England dominated posession of the ball! As all on here will be aware, the only currency in football that counts is goals.
England had 68% of the ball against Iceland, and yet who looked more like scoring?
Could any of those England players tell you in less than a minute what our basic strategy was in the Euro's? No they couldn't, because there patently wasn't one in place!
I think tactics are generally written off in English football as not being as important as the pace and power. Amount of praise i see Kyle Walker get, personally baffles me, I think he is a liability who should be getting defending right first before bombing down the line.
But get the tactics right, aswell as a team involving players disciplined and smart enough to understand, then you can be a better team twice over.
Big Sam tactically is spot on and can do so with different levels of footballers. Very interested to see how he does.
I think Walker and Rose are decent players who allow you not to need wingers, but you do need an extra man at the back as they are not the best defensively!. Sometimes it isn't the players but the system which accommodates them!
The problem that I had with Walker and Rose, was that although there was plenty of running up the wing, I am struggling to recall too many quality balls that went into the box.
Secondly even if we had got good balls into the box, we only had one bloke in there to get on the end of them (Harry Kane), and even he isn't really a six yard box player.
The whole system and 'strategy' was floored from the start!
I think tactics are generally written off in English football as not being as important as the pace and power. Amount of praise i see Kyle Walker get, personally baffles me, I think he is a liability who should be getting defending right first before bombing down the line.
But get the tactics right, aswell as a team involving players disciplined and smart enough to understand, then you can be a better team twice over.
Big Sam tactically is spot on and can do so with different levels of footballers. Very interested to see how he does.
Problem with the defending side of full backs is most of them are failed wingers but have great pace and clubs want that to defend against good wingers with pace.
The future could have Gomez, Stones,and ? as a back 3. With two wing backs who can attack and defend ; Shaw and ? Dyer as the holding/defensive midfielder in front.
3-5-2 without being rigid as the wing backs can operate in any part of the field depending on the state of play.
The main problem would be to find another ball playing defender to play along side Stones and Gomez so the wing backs can unleash their attacking prowess.
This could still have a fast tempo, to unlock the oppositions defense. plus a calmness on the ball which has disappeared from England once we reach Tournament football.
The Unknown is how will Big Sam adapt to having a squad of Footballers on a higher Level ( in theory ) to the Journey man type of players he is used to. The skills of Jay-Jay Okocha, Youri Djorkaeff and the prowess of Jemaine Defoe in the Box didn't suffer under Allardyce, so let's see if he can motivate and correct the mindset of young Talented footballers who leave their A game back at their clubs.
The Iceland Game was a new Nadir. The only way is UP. Fingers crossed.
Comments
For me there's no culture of accepting responsibility. I would even go far as to say to someone like Rooney, you may be record goalscorer but your intl career has been shit IMO, you haven't won anything, you've hardly contributed in tournaments. All your goals are qualifiers, friendlies or penalties that ultimately mean nothing when you look back at it.
I'm using this in the extreme but my point is I bet he hasn't had to answer to anyone since Ferguson. If he's got anything about him he would respond to that and try and give us one more tournament before he retires. That's honestly how I feel about how they need to be dealt with, especially him as captain.
Sod pandering to him and consulting who he thinks should be next manager. It's a joke
However it hasn't worked, nor will it work because Roomey has spent the majority of his career up top. He won't have that in built Scholes sense of when and how to make those late runs into the box, which is what man untied think, or he thinks he can do. It's a bit insulting to Scholes as well, these comparisons and assumptions he can fill that role.
I truly believe his career is now over. Not over as in he won't play much anymore, unfortunately I think we'll see him in an England shirt again in 2018 if we qualify. For me he'll become a shitter version of Kevin Nolan. Ie same role, less goals, less effective
Maybe a good starting point would be to find a style that will be effective - It will clearly have to be strong defensively and build the team around that. Picking the right players for that style and drumming into them what that style is. I think Hodgson in all his time as manager never nailed this crucial element which is incredible really!
Big Sam doesn't have to prove anybody right or wrong. He just has to have a plan and stick to it and not try to be too clever. It seems to be a trait in England managers that they may feel they have to justify their huge salary by trying surprising and unusual things. We need Big Sam just to manage, not try to out think himself. Could be interesting. I am optimistic in all honesty. Also, I would like to see an England cap becoming special again, and not something that is handed out to anybody who has had a good couple of months!
Rooney is only 30.
They were all bad, granted, and I'd LOVE to know how and why that happened. But Wayne was the man who could and should have pulled them all together. But he didn't do anything to save the game. In fact, he made it worse. I thought he did well in the previous games, looked the part against Russia and Wales (he made Ramsey look like an idiot quite consistently) but if he can fold so easily, and so crucially, then I wouldn't mind at all if he gave it up. If he does continue to play for England, we can only hope Sam knows how to fix that mental block that made him so abysmal.
For such a talented player I don't just believe you can lose your first touch.
His head doesn't work quick enough now, you can see what he wants to do but his body doesn't react as quick as his head. The amount of times he got caught in possession and had the ball nicked off him was ridiculous.
Give him time and space and yes the world class player comes back pinging balls everywhere, however the other teams sussed it, close him down quick and it pains me to say it but hes pretty useless now.
Remember him bursting on the scene in the Euros (12 years ago? Fck me) and just loved watching him.
Sick of seeing one-season wonders and this weeks big thing being tossed a cap when they clearly don't belong on the world stage
I believe we have some decent young players, but are they good enough to play any other football than an organised, structured old school approach. I'm genuinely of the opinion that until our whole system is pretty much broken down and rebuilt again, much like Germany did post 2002 WC or Iceland did, or Wales did with Garry Speed AND the money in the game and the premier league is somehow reigned in, then big Sam is about the most appropriate option.
I think we're still miles behind in terms of ever winning a tournament. There's been so many false dawns that I just want blood, guts and fight for the shirt now. That's how low my expectations are. I welcome the appointment because I respect Allardyce and everything he's achieved. Let's hope he can get us playing with passion again, regardless of how direct that may be
On the wider issues, the premier league academies are producing players who have natural footballing ability, but can only play in a certain way and cannot adapt or think for themselves, let alone gell as a team. I watched the England U19s play a couple of matches in the current tournament, in which they looked like a collection of individuals with no real tactical nous or team play. Identikit players who lack footballing intelligence and are more concerned with their own performance or how they look, than anything else.
A big bug-bear of mine at present is meaningless possession, not only with England, but at all levels. There is a tendency these days to pass the ball backwards when gaining possession and then pass it around the back before thinking about passing it forward. Midfielders pass the responsibility of making a forward pass to defenders, who have less ability on the ball. Possession for possession sake. I will be interested to see if Allardyce preaches getting it forward into the last third early and putting the opposition under early pressure, as his team's have done in domestic football.
Unforgivable.
On another note why hasn't Trevor Brooking been wheeled out to say that we now need to start again from the grass roots?
We keep trying to copy other nations, and have consequently lost all of our footballing indentity.
Sam will also cut out all this posession based football, which everybody seems to have become obsessed about. I have heard so many 'experts' during the Euro's claim some kind of victory as England dominated posession of the ball! As all on here will be aware, the only currency in football that counts is goals.
England had 68% of the ball against Iceland, and yet who looked more like scoring?
Could any of those England players tell you in less than a minute what our basic strategy was in the Euro's? No they couldn't, because there patently wasn't one in place!
But get the tactics right, aswell as a team involving players disciplined and smart enough to understand, then you can be a better team twice over.
Big Sam tactically is spot on and can do so with different levels of footballers. Very interested to see how he does.
Secondly even if we had got good balls into the box, we only had one bloke in there to get on the end of them (Harry Kane), and even he isn't really a six yard box player.
The whole system and 'strategy' was floored from the start!
Most full backs game isn't defending.
With two wing backs who can attack and defend ; Shaw and ?
Dyer as the holding/defensive midfielder in front.
3-5-2 without being rigid as the wing backs can operate in any part of the field depending on the state of play.
The main problem would be to find another ball playing defender to play along side Stones and Gomez so the wing backs can unleash their attacking prowess.
This could still have a fast tempo, to unlock the oppositions defense.
plus a calmness on the ball which has disappeared from England once we reach Tournament football.
The Unknown is how will Big Sam adapt to having a squad of Footballers on a higher Level ( in theory ) to the Journey man type of players he is used to.
The skills of Jay-Jay Okocha, Youri Djorkaeff and the prowess of Jemaine
Defoe in the Box didn't suffer under Allardyce, so let's see if he can motivate and correct the mindset of young Talented footballers who leave their A game back at their clubs.
The Iceland Game was a new Nadir.
The only way is UP. Fingers crossed.