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The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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With you all the way to the end (i don't agree with you, but appreciate that you are putting forward solutions as opposed to just rubbishing what others say). I just do not buy the myth of your last paragraph. The people charged with making the UK's exit a success all voted to leave, that's why May put them there. The Tory Party, who caused this problem, put May in charge. If you are suggesting that this is a grand conspiracy to stay, i would suggest there are far easier ways to do it. Davis, Johnson and Fox want to leave (well, Johnson just wants to be the centre of attention, and this is his current way of doing so).Southbank said:
On the contrary. The UK has 2 strengths in this negotiation (and a lot of weaknesses). The first is that Germany and France do not want to have to explain to their people why they have to fork out 50b Euro to Rumania and Greece to fill the budget hole. That means we should hold back on agreeing any figure or make any commitment until we have got commitments from the other side. The reason that Germany and France are taking a hard line on the money is for that reason. Once they have that out of the way they will be under far less pressure to concede anything. Making commitments on the money now is throwing away our best bargaining counter. But that is wjhat the UK Government looks as if it is about to do.Stig said:
The most successful outcomes in negotiations invariably come when both sides want the same things and actively collaborate to ensure that everyone gets what they want. That was never going to happen with Brexit because both sides wanted different things. The best we could have hoped for was a compromise situation where both sides recognised that the others wanted something else and engaged in a little give and take to ensure a mutually acceptable (though never entirely satisfactory) outcome. Where the negotiations have been operating is around the win/lose model, both sides fighting for what they want regardless of the others (well, the EU has been doing that - the UK negotiators aren't sophisticated enough even for this level). What you're calling for though is a lose/lose negotiation model. Sod what's good for them, sod what's good for us. Lets just pile on in the most crass thoughtless way possible. Casualties don't matter as long as we can say 'job done'. It is the politics of the Twilight Zone. Utter, utter madness.Southbank said:
Our plan should be based on a recognition that,as per this briefing, the EU will offer us nothing worth paying for. They are suckering us into making a commitment to pay them. Once we have, they will offer us the Canada deal and tell us to lump it.ShootersHillGuru said:
It’s actually called having a coherent plan and negotiating stance.Dippenhall said:
Oh dear another accidentally leaked document to the Guardian to show how the EU are entering negotiations with an open mind.Red_in_SE8 said:
Something May and Davis should take note of.
We should walk away now, offer no money but 2 years initial tariff free trade from our side and all EU citizens already here can stay and bring their immediate families if they want. If the EU wants to reciprocate they can, or we will take our business elsewhere and impose tariffs on their goods.
We are led by weak Remainer politicians who do not want to leave the EU and who are being taken for a ride by the EU. No party speaks for the 52%, a massive democratic deficit which needs to change.
The second strength is that many European businesses want to carry on trading with the UK, and we want to carry on trading with them. We should put the ball in their court by offering a two year period during which free movement of goods will continue into the UK. At the end of this tariffs will be imposed if the EU does not reciprocate. The EU will be answerable to EU businesses which will suffer if they do not reciprocate.
Overall we are in a very weak position due to the relative economic strength of the EU against that of the UK. At the moment we are playing our cards badly because our leaders do not really want to leave. All of the political parties bar the DUP are led by Remainers. So what else can we expect but this inept and craven approach.
Davis is either too naive to be in his position, or he is playing fast and loose with the future of one of the largest economies in the world. Both options are dire.
During the campaign, a lot of leavers were espousing the virtue of the 'Norway model' or 'doing a Switzerland', where did all this go? Now it seems to be hard brexit or nothing. Feels to me like there is a lot of cutting off noses to spite faces.9 -
Eventually the EU will offer us a great deal.
But on condition we stay.3 -
I think the whole thing is a complete shitshow, on both sides of the debate, and have little appetite for a back an forth willy waving contest (which is exactly what a percentage of posters on these threads have turned it in to....in my humble opinion, of course, before anyone startsPragueAddick said:
I am not interested in "painting" you anywhere. I don't "paint" say, Dippenhall or Stonemuse anywhere. I know exactly where they are coming from, and appreciate their frequent challenge to how I see the issue. You are clearly an intelligent bloke. I am therefore interested in what you actually think on this issue. You are not of course obliged to state how you voted (although unlike @bobmunro I recall you gave a highly equivocal statement on that at the time). I would say with confidence that since then your sarcasm has been directed entirely at Remain opinions on here. That suggests you disagree with them. But why not just come out and say so, and more importantly say why? Surely that is the purpose of threads like this?Big_Bad_World said:
Things have taken a dramatic, and a times nasty, turn for the worst in certain threads.PragueAddick said:
That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere.Big_Bad_World said:
I'll do my best not to disappoint you.Chizz said:
OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
At least bob gets me.
You can try and paint me in to a corner all you like. I have the tools to remove all forms of paint, whether that be water, cooking oil and soap or even alcohol. I think you'll need a better brush
Anyway, whatever. I am going to concentrate on these ONS figures, because I am still baffled at how they seem to contradict earlier figures, and it's too "quiet" for @Valiantphil . I like this fact based stuff, you see.
) that will solve nothing.
That's about as far as I wish to go as there's enough negativity floating around without me adding to the pile.
Re my sarcasm, it's never really directed at individuals, more the subject matter. Maybe my attempts at humour and sarcasm are lost at times and I suppose I have to take responsibility for that.
Peace, love and cuddles
Apologies for the time it's taken to respond but my internet connection is shockingly intermittent at the moment.2 -
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.0 -
I'm not sure those tariff free trades would be allowed, under WTO rules, unless we offered the same to the entire world, which would be nuts. Sadly, the EU has us stuck in quite a corner.Southbank said:
On the contrary. The UK has 2 strengths in this negotiation (and a lot of weaknesses). The first is that Germany and France do not want to have to explain to their people why they have to fork out 50b Euro to Rumania and Greece to fill the budget hole. That means we should hold back on agreeing any figure or make any commitment until we have got commitments from the other side. The reason that Germany and France are taking a hard line on the money is for that reason. Once they have that out of the way they will be under far less pressure to concede anything. Making commitments on the money now is throwing away our best bargaining counter. But that is wjhat the UK Government looks as if it is about to do.Stig said:
The most successful outcomes in negotiations invariably come when both sides want the same things and actively collaborate to ensure that everyone gets what they want. That was never going to happen with Brexit because both sides wanted different things. The best we could have hoped for was a compromise situation where both sides recognised that the others wanted something else and engaged in a little give and take to ensure a mutually acceptable (though never entirely satisfactory) outcome. Where the negotiations have been operating is around the win/lose model, both sides fighting for what they want regardless of the others (well, the EU has been doing that - the UK negotiators aren't sophisticated enough even for this level). What you're calling for though is a lose/lose negotiation model. Sod what's good for them, sod what's good for us. Lets just pile on in the most crass thoughtless way possible. Casualties don't matter as long as we can say 'job done'. It is the politics of the Twilight Zone. Utter, utter madness.Southbank said:
Our plan should be based on a recognition that,as per this briefing, the EU will offer us nothing worth paying for. They are suckering us into making a commitment to pay them. Once we have, they will offer us the Canada deal and tell us to lump it.ShootersHillGuru said:
It’s actually called having a coherent plan and negotiating stance.Dippenhall said:
Oh dear another accidentally leaked document to the Guardian to show how the EU are entering negotiations with an open mind.Red_in_SE8 said:
Something May and Davis should take note of.
We should walk away now, offer no money but 2 years initial tariff free trade from our side and all EU citizens already here can stay and bring their immediate families if they want. If the EU wants to reciprocate they can, or we will take our business elsewhere and impose tariffs on their goods.
We are led by weak Remainer politicians who do not want to leave the EU and who are being taken for a ride by the EU. No party speaks for the 52%, a massive democratic deficit which needs to change.
The second strength is that many European businesses want to carry on trading with the UK, and we want to carry on trading with them. We should put the ball in their court by offering a two year period during which free movement of goods will continue into the UK. At the end of this tariffs will be imposed if the EU does not reciprocate. The EU will be answerable to EU businesses which will suffer if they do not reciprocate.
Overall we are in a very weak position due to the relative economic strength of the EU against that of the UK. At the moment we are playing our cards badly because our leaders do not really want to leave. All of the political parties bar the DUP are led by Remainers. So what else can we expect but this inept and craven approach.1 -
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.4 -
But Brexit isn’t anything to do with racism. That’s what we are being told to believe. Every so often though the mask slips.Valiantphil said:
Yes, if those migration numbers are correct then .....it seems to have gone awfully quiet on here.Southbank said:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561PragueAddick said:
Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.PragueAddick said:
Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.Imissthepeanutman said:Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.
Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.
here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.
I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...
Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.
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Well, as the only negotiations ongoing at present relate to the UK's departure from the EU, and its constituent parts, only, your prescription for the first strength would lead to a "no deal" Brexit.Southbank said:
On the contrary. The UK has 2 strengths in this negotiation (and a lot of weaknesses). The first is that Germany and France do not want to have to explain to their people why they have to fork out 50b Euro to Rumania and Greece to fill the budget hole. That means we should hold back on agreeing any figure or make any commitment until we have got commitments from the other side. The reason that Germany and France are taking a hard line on the money is for that reason. Once they have that out of the way they will be under far less pressure to concede anything. Making commitments on the money now is throwing away our best bargaining counter. But that is wjhat the UK Government looks as if it is about to do.Stig said:
The most successful outcomes in negotiations invariably come when both sides want the same things and actively collaborate to ensure that everyone gets what they want. That was never going to happen with Brexit because both sides wanted different things. The best we could have hoped for was a compromise situation where both sides recognised that the others wanted something else and engaged in a little give and take to ensure a mutually acceptable (though never entirely satisfactory) outcome. Where the negotiations have been operating is around the win/lose model, both sides fighting for what they want regardless of the others (well, the EU has been doing that - the UK negotiators aren't sophisticated enough even for this level). What you're calling for though is a lose/lose negotiation model. Sod what's good for them, sod what's good for us. Lets just pile on in the most crass thoughtless way possible. Casualties don't matter as long as we can say 'job done'. It is the politics of the Twilight Zone. Utter, utter madness.Southbank said:
Our plan should be based on a recognition that,as per this briefing, the EU will offer us nothing worth paying for. They are suckering us into making a commitment to pay them. Once we have, they will offer us the Canada deal and tell us to lump it.ShootersHillGuru said:
It’s actually called having a coherent plan and negotiating stance.Dippenhall said:
Oh dear another accidentally leaked document to the Guardian to show how the EU are entering negotiations with an open mind.Red_in_SE8 said:
Something May and Davis should take note of.
We should walk away now, offer no money but 2 years initial tariff free trade from our side and all EU citizens already here can stay and bring their immediate families if they want. If the EU wants to reciprocate they can, or we will take our business elsewhere and impose tariffs on their goods.
We are led by weak Remainer politicians who do not want to leave the EU and who are being taken for a ride by the EU. No party speaks for the 52%, a massive democratic deficit which needs to change.
The second strength is that many European businesses want to carry on trading with the UK, and we want to carry on trading with them. We should put the ball in their court by offering a two year period during which free movement of goods will continue into the UK. At the end of this tariffs will be imposed if the EU does not reciprocate. The EU will be answerable to EU businesses which will suffer if they do not reciprocate.
Overall we are in a very weak position due to the relative economic strength of the EU against that of the UK. At the moment we are playing our cards badly because our leaders do not really want to leave. All of the political parties bar the DUP are led by Remainers. So what else can we expect but this inept and craven approach.
If, along with the Irish border and citizens' rights, the UK Government does not negotiate and agree the outline of what it is willing to pay for (the amount is less pressing) soon, there won't be any time for genuine negotiations on a future arrangement.
If the UK, outside the EU, offers a two year tariff free access, outside of an agreed trade deal (even outline), I have a sneaking suspicion that the same offer must be granted to all other WTO members. If you want tariff free trade, even temporarily, with anyone but not everyone, the only way to achieve it and provide some protection against unfair competition, is to have an agreement. Unless you're Patrick Minford, in which case you are convinced that the jobs lost are entirely worthwhile
Personally, I doubt if even a transition deal will be agreed unless there is a dramatic, almost overnight, narrowing of the differences between the two sides in the negotiations on Brexit.
I'm really not sure that comparing the current leadership of the DUP with other UK parties, in relation to inept handling of negotiations is all that wise. While not craven, I doubt if too many will view Arlene Foster's handling of negotiations as particularly skilled (look at how well things are going with the Assembly). Though, your analogy does hold true, insofar as the DUP leadership appears to hold a view on Brexit that is in opposition to that expressed in the referendum by those that they claim to represent.
Just saying....3 -
About those ONS figures...
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
The ONS also publishes Migration Stats Quarterly. The last one was in June and the key finding was
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
The latest report picked up by @Imissthepeanutman measures something different - employment. The ONS posts the following warning near the front of the report. (my emphasis in bold)
What these statistics should not be used for, and why
These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.0 -
Just reading quickly but a little confused. If the figures include those who are now U.K. nationals, then obviously it cannot be compared to migration for non-UK nationals ... or am I missing something?PragueAddick said:About those ONS figures...
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
The ONS also publishes Migration Stats Quarterly. The last one was in June and the key finding was
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
The latest report picked up by @Imissthepeanutman measures something different - employment. The ONS posts the following warning near the front of the report. (my emphasis in bold)
What these statistics should not be used for, and why
These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.0 -
Sponsored links:
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Relating to Prague’s post above. Anyone see ‘British Workers Wanted’ on C4 last night. Filled me with confidence for a successful post Brexit UK.....1
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Yet the owners of that business voted leave.Chaz Hill said:Relating to Prague’s post above. Anyone see ‘British Workers Wanted’ on C4 last night. Filled me with confidence for a successful post Brexit UK.....
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The younger one said she had now changed her mind as she had been misled by the campaigning.ShootersHillGuru said:
Yet the owners of that business voted leave.Chaz Hill said:Relating to Prague’s post above. Anyone see ‘British Workers Wanted’ on C4 last night. Filled me with confidence for a successful post Brexit UK.....
1 -
Can we not use the Simplify lifeline from the Cube?
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I think it is clear that this latest set of stats is about people who have entered employment, and as such could have been here any length of time. Therefore it does not tell us anything about whether inward migration of EU citizens is rising or falling. For this we would need to wait until 30 November report.stonemuse said:
Just reading quickly but a little confused. If the figures include those who are now U.K. nationals, then obviously it cannot be compared to migration for non-UK nationals ... or am I missing something?PragueAddick said:About those ONS figures...
It is a public holiday here today, a very resonant one too (Freedom Day, the fall of communism), so sad ****** that I am, I took the time to call the ONS. Very approachable people but unfortunately the main guy is on hols today. Someone else is due to call me back however I think I may have already solved the puzzle.
The ONS also publishes Migration Stats Quarterly. The last one was in June and the key finding was
More than half of the change in net migration can be accounted for by a decrease in net migration of EU citizens (down 51,000); this was driven by an increase (33,000) in emigration for EU citizens (in particular EU8 emigration up 17,000 (both statistically significant)) and a 19,000 decrease in immigration (not statistically significant).
This is the report that will be updated on 30th November.
The latest report picked up by @Imissthepeanutman measures something different - employment. The ONS posts the following warning near the front of the report. (my emphasis in bold)
What these statistics should not be used for, and why
These statistics do not measure stocks or flows of recent migrants to the UK, because they include people resident in the UK for many years (many of whom will now be UK nationals) as well as more recent arrivals. This, along with a range of other factors, means that net changes in the number of non-UK workers in the UK cannot be directly compared with long-term net migration for non-UK nationals.
This warning was completely ignored by Migration Watch in the BBC report which @Imissthepeanutman read. It is totally understandable then that he understood it as he did.
But if you think I have that wrong, do say so, I still hope to speak with them directly and make sure I've got it right.
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Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem.Baldybonce said:
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.0 -
Having a desire to control the amount of people entering the country is not racism though, is it?ShootersHillGuru said:
But Brexit isn’t anything to do with racism. That’s what we are being told to believe. Every so often though the mask slips.Valiantphil said:
Yes, if those migration numbers are correct then .....it seems to have gone awfully quiet on here.Southbank said:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561PragueAddick said:
Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.PragueAddick said:
Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.Imissthepeanutman said:Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.
Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.
here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.
I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...
Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.1 -
I think it would be ridiculous to suggest there isn't a problem with racism in the Uk, or, IMO, anywhere in the world. When I lived in Hull some of the thongs are heard were beyond awful.Covered End said:
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem.Baldybonce said:
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.
I still think the UK has a long way to fall before it reaches the levels of a lot of the world when it comes to scum bag racists.5 -
Happy to point out again, that Brexit for me is about too many people (incl British) on an island.ShootersHillGuru said:
But Brexit isn’t anything to do with racism. That’s what we are being told to believe. Every so often though the mask slips.Valiantphil said:
Yes, if those migration numbers are correct then .....it seems to have gone awfully quiet on here.Southbank said:
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-41999561PragueAddick said:
Well I looked for myself. And I did not find. Not on the Times website, and certainly not in any other articles that come up on Google.PragueAddick said:
Anyone got a link to the actual stats? That seems to go against all recent reports on the matter.Imissthepeanutman said:Is this 'preferred methodology' in the public domain? I would like to see it and understand some of the base elements.
Interesting ONS stats on the front page of the times showing Eu workers in the uk at a higher level now than pre referendum. I am not displeased with that personally albeit I do feel longer term action is required to have some controls in place.
here is the most comprehensive recent presentation of the stats I could find, from 30th August. It shows migration from the EU on the way down, the decline led by those from the most recent accession countries.
I also read that the next ONS figures are out on 30. November. So heaven knows what the Times might have been on about. But it's full of Brexiteers so it could come out with anything. It hasn't come out with £80bn., though...
Here it is,with link to ONS report. Amazing what with Brexit Britain being a racist hellhole that so many more are prepared to brave it out.
Too easy to dismiss a valid viewpoint as racism or masked racism.
The population issue needs to be debated IMO.4 -
2 -
Sponsored links:
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Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?0
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Austerity in UKStig said:1 -
No.Dazzler21 said:Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
1 -
Just checking... For a friend (myself - my only one.Stu_of_Kunming said:
No.Dazzler21 said:Is it racist to only want to allow people to move to the UK that add to the economy, i.e have skills/professions that will improve the UK? Like Australia (apparently) does?
). 0 -
I am with you totally on this.Big_Bad_World said:
I agree. They are just as infuriating as 'the fact of the matter is', 'what we should focus on', 'it seems that what you are saying' etc.seth plum said:
...now about that word 'obvious' and it's miserable companion 'obviously'...Big_Bad_World said:
I think you may have missed, unlike @bobmunro, the obvious sarcasm in my post.seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
Easily done as I have been, at times, peddled as being the editor in chief at Breitbart News on here
Lets start a campaign to eradicate these ill-defined vagaries (not sure if I've used 'vagaries' in the right context here but I'll stick with it).
What we mean by what we say is something that I think is always worth examining.1 -
No. And certainly not China. Doesn't help with ease of life though.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.0 -
Maybe there is a difference as to how people perceive racism, especially low level racism.Covered End said:
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem.Baldybonce said:
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.0 -
I've always welcomed you on here......not now ya millwall scumBig_Bad_World said:
I think the whole thing is a complete shitshow, on both sides of the debate, and have little appetite for a back an forth willy waving contest (which is exactly what a percentage of posters on these threads have turned it in to....in my humble opinion, of course, before anyone startsPragueAddick said:
I am not interested in "painting" you anywhere. I don't "paint" say, Dippenhall or Stonemuse anywhere. I know exactly where they are coming from, and appreciate their frequent challenge to how I see the issue. You are clearly an intelligent bloke. I am therefore interested in what you actually think on this issue. You are not of course obliged to state how you voted (although unlike @bobmunro I recall you gave a highly equivocal statement on that at the time). I would say with confidence that since then your sarcasm has been directed entirely at Remain opinions on here. That suggests you disagree with them. But why not just come out and say so, and more importantly say why? Surely that is the purpose of threads like this?Big_Bad_World said:
Things have taken a dramatic, and a times nasty, turn for the worst in certain threads.PragueAddick said:
That would be genuinely interesting. At an early stage in your Charlton Life you told us that you, a Spanner, visited us because you found the standard of debate a bit higher than elsewhere.Big_Bad_World said:
I'll do my best not to disappoint you.Chizz said:
OK. Well, if at some stage you find you do stumble across a convincing argument that you think could sway a decision from remain to leave, please make sure you post it.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
At least bob gets me.
You can try and paint me in to a corner all you like. I have the tools to remove all forms of paint, whether that be water, cooking oil and soap or even alcohol. I think you'll need a better brush
Anyway, whatever. I am going to concentrate on these ONS figures, because I am still baffled at how they seem to contradict earlier figures, and it's too "quiet" for @Valiantphil . I like this fact based stuff, you see. ) that will solve nothing.
That's about as far as I wish to go as there's enough negativity floating around without me adding to the pile.
Re my sarcasm, it's never really directed at individuals, more the subject matter. Maybe my attempts at humour and sarcasm are lost at times and I suppose I have to take responsibility for that.
Peace, love and cuddles
Apologies for the time it's taken to respond but my internet connection is shockingly intermittent at the moment.3 -
Trevor Sinclair perceives it very differently to most, it would seem.seth plum said:
Maybe there is a difference as to how people perceive racism, especially low level racism.Covered End said:
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem.Baldybonce said:
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.1 -
Yes, I think that could be the answer. The other less plausible thought I have is whether one persons actions or demeanour leads to comments, but that would surely only explain a difference in numbers, as opposed to a weekly occurence v nil occurence.seth plum said:
Maybe there is a difference as to how people perceive racism, especially low level racism.Covered End said:
Well that's quite peculiar. One mixed race young man suffers low level racism on a weekly basis and yet another mixed race young man also living in SE London has never had a problem.Baldybonce said:
Two points from me..Stu_of_Kunming said:
Can you point me to a country that doesn't suffer from a certain level of racism?seth plum said:
I disagree with you when you say this is a massively racist and bigoted country. There is racism and bigotry which might not be everywhere all the time, but may well be enough to alienate people.Big_Bad_World said:
You're always so encouraging.Chizz said:
Good. Because if anyone can, I would encourage them to share their views. Especially if they've been critical about others not doing so. So... What do you think the most convincing arguments are?Big_Bad_World said:
Yeah, lots.Chizz said:
Nope. That didn't make me change my mind. Do you have anything you think that might?Big_Bad_World said:
I'm hoping you mistakenly put a space in between so as not to offend.Chizz said:
Go on...Big_Bad_World said:It's great to see opinions being posted that will undoubtedly make people change their minds. Yes siree.
#rotfl
I'll need to set up a Twitter profile first and then surround myself with people that say things I like and agree with so I can reference them whenever I get the chance.
My thoughts wouldn't be of any use to you as I'm not a social media addict so have no relevance in today's echo chamber driven world.
I will say, though, that the most convincing argument I'd heard of late was that EU nationals were leaving Britain in their droves due to not feeling welcome in this massively racist and bigoted country that we live in. I'm sure there'll be some stats published soon that will totally back up this assertion.
Right on, brother.
I am the father of a mixed race son and he is very frequently made aware of his 'difference' (tho born in Lewisham hospital) and encounters low level racism on a weekly basis.
It makes me wonder how prejudiced people might be towards him under the surface based on the tip of the iceberg principle...others might say I am being paranoid.
There is definitely racism and bigotry in this country, but maybe not massive, but certainly it is always there lurking around.
my son is mixed race and has told me he's never had a problem about it.
I'm dealing with accusations of racism at work at the moment. The Black British staff have complained of racism by the eastern European staff.
The eastern Europeans say they are not racist but...
The Black British say " they come over here"
I'd pull my hair out if I could.
I'm not suggesting anything just in case someone assumes I am.
I hope I've worded this correctly, because I wouldn't wish to offend anyone.0
This discussion has been closed.
