The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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The idea that the EU didn’t use the border as a bargaining chip and a means of getting the U.K. to define a solution that ore defined the outcome of the trade deal is laughable and desperate posturing and entirely risible.Fiiish said:The idea that the EU has been actively frustrating talks and not the UK's laughable and desperate posturing is entirely risible.
Considering we have now reached an agreement that the EU has always been putting forward and that the UK voted for as per the referendum campaigning.
Citizens rights was never a point of disagreement, just another bargaining chip to frustrate progress.1 -
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Sorry Dippy but this is simply untrue. There is absolutely zero evidence the EU has been acting in the way you describe.Dippenhall said:
The idea that the EU didn’t use the border as a bargaining chip and a means of getting the U.K. to define a solution that ore defined the outcome of the trade deal is laughable and desperate posturing and entirely risible.Fiiish said:The idea that the EU has been actively frustrating talks and not the UK's laughable and desperate posturing is entirely risible.
Considering we have now reached an agreement that the EU has always been putting forward and that the UK voted for as per the referendum campaigning.
Citizens rights was never a point of disagreement, just another bargaining chip to frustrate progress.1 -
So democracy working well then.....Fiiish said:The idea that the EU has been actively frustrating talks and not the UK's laughable and desperate posturing is entirely risible.
Considering we have now reached an agreement that the EU has always been putting forward and that the UK voted for as per the referendum campaigning.
It seems like a very seasonal piece of fudge and I am pleased we have got to this stage. Now Mr Davis has a little more time and focus to work up some impact assessments.
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'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!5
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Regulatory alignment until there is an FTA. Congratulations! Goodbye cliff edge, hello slippery slope!
Perhaps this encourages businesses and financial services to simply check their parachutes rather than book the first flight. The options at the end remain:
1) abort the process,
2) Norway style deal
3) and a third option.
Instead of no deal, we have the possibility of indefinite maintenance of the status quo but without influence.
Anybody who still believes that the EU27 will offer an FTA that gives all the benefits with none of the obligations really hasn't paid attention. We either maintain the four freedoms by staying in the EEA or... well there is no alternative on offer.
A very British pragmatic solution as we downsize into our bungalow by the sea. And the DUP have had no influence whatsoever. But nobody needed to stoop to their level and point this out.0 -
Just woken up.
If brexit means control of borders then at first glance it looks like this bit of brexit has been abandoned.
Good.3 -
Well, quite, it isn't fair. Presumably they'll benefit from other stuff as well, like keeping EHICs and retaining those nice little blue badges on their peculiar number plates. And the people in the Republic will still get BBC TV without paying a licence fee.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
On the plus side, some advertisements will still say in the small print "not available in Northern Ireland".0 -
Are you saying that the EU27 doesn't have the right to define it's borders when dealing with a third party.Dippenhall said:
The idea that the EU didn’t use the border as a bargaining chip and a means of getting the U.K. to define a solution that ore defined the outcome of the trade deal is laughable and desperate posturing and entirely risible.Fiiish said:The idea that the EU has been actively frustrating talks and not the UK's laughable and desperate posturing is entirely risible.
Considering we have now reached an agreement that the EU has always been putting forward and that the UK voted for as per the referendum campaigning.
Citizens rights was never a point of disagreement, just another bargaining chip to frustrate progress.
Or perhaps you think it would be healthy to leave the issue open so the DUP and Sinn Fein have maximum leverage to disrupt the process.
The reality is that the alt-right now have nowhere to go and no leverage. What's not to like?
This might even be enough to bring Sinn Fein back to Stormont but that's speculation - posters such as @NornIrishAddick would be far better placed to assess the preconditions for Stormont to start working again.1 -
Let's hope it is just the start.....and that the rest of the nonsense that is Brexit is abandoned as the Brexit loonies realise there is no hiding from facts and reality in the outside world!seth plum said:Just woken up.
If brexit means control of borders then at first glance it looks like this bit of brexit has been abandoned.
Good.2 -
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Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
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It is in the headline but I can't see the detail.Bournemouth Addick said:...
Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/dec/08/brexit-border-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live0 -
Seems like a lot of time, money and effort will have been spent on what will have no discernible difference on people's lives anyway. Hopefully the politicians and media can stop using the EU as a bogeyman/ scapegoat for problems and focus on real issues in the UK now, but I doubt that will happen.4
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Yes I agree but remain outvoted.Red_in_SE8 said:
Let's hope it is just the start.....and that the rest of the nonsense that is Brexit is abandoned as the Brexit loonies realise there is no hiding from facts and reality in the outside world!seth plum said:Just woken up.
If brexit means control of borders then at first glance it looks like this bit of brexit has been abandoned.
Good.
My understanding is that once in the Republic any person can walk free and unchallenged from the EU to the UK.
Also if something like iphones have a Ten Pound tariff between the EU and the UK then a container load of 350,000 phones driven from Dublin to Belfast makes 3.5 million Quid a time.
Taking back control of the border is now given up. Brexit voters may now feel betrayed but it is indeed a first step and if my interpretation is correct I am pleased.
Smugglers will be pleased too. Go to Ireland if you want to get rich.0 -
I'm not sure, but if it is then it's total bollox. I too want to be able to move freely within the EU please!Bournemouth Addick said:...
Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
It also goes against the DUP dinosaurs in them not wanting anything different in NI to the rest of the UK.4 -
Nothing changes. If you, your parents or grandparents were born on the island of Ireland then you are eligible to apply for an Irish passport.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
One assumes that has been the case since partition.3 -
That assumes that staunch unionists want to carry around a ROI passport of course.seriously_red said:
Nothing changes. If you, your parents or grandparents were born on the island of Ireland then you are eligible to apply for an Irish passport.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
I was born in Europe - can I apply for EU citizenship? My sons were born in the EU - likewise do they retain the EU passport?0 -
Red_in_SE8 said:
It is in the headline but I can't see the detail.Bournemouth Addick said:...
Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2017/dec/08/brexit-border-eu-theresa-may-juncker-tusk-markets-live
Everyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to choose British or Irish citizenship, or both. I guess what they are saying is that those from the North who choose to hold Irish citizenship (which presumably as a direct consequence of Brexit will now be the majority save for the last remaining staunch DUP type nutters) will remain EU Citizens.Bournemouth Addick said:...
Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
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Under the Good Friday Agreement people born in Northern Ireland can decide to be British, Irish or both - in return, Ireland agreed to give up its constitutional claim to the island of Ireland (part of the reason that the referendum on the GFA was in both jurisdictions).Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
Clearly a significant proportion would never dream of holding dual status and, should there be no agreement on leaving the EU, there would be a degree of local difficulty if the UK Government were to decide that the Ireland Act no longer applied and all EU citizens should be treated the same, with requirements to register status, etc.1 -
To say nothing of Amazon refusing to deliver some items (because they assume that their packages will travel by air).cafcfan said:
Well, quite, it isn't fair. Presumably they'll benefit from other stuff as well, like keeping EHICs and retaining those nice little blue badges on their peculiar number plates. And the people in the Republic will still get BBC TV without paying a licence fee.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
On the plus side, some advertisements will still say in the small print "not available in Northern Ireland".
Not that I'm bitter, you understand.0 -
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Well not quite.seriously_red said:
Nothing changes. If you, your parents or grandparents were born on the island of Ireland then you are eligible to apply for an Irish passport.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
One assumes that has been the case since partition.
Should this headline prove factual then someone from NI who might for sake of argument be a staunch unionist and baulk at the idea of having an ROI passport would still hold their British passport (a nice dark blue one) and still be able to claim eu citizenship.
I’m thinking of taking this through the European courts as I’m being unfairly treated. I want to remain an eu citizen.
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I have a lapsed British passport (born in Erith) and a current Irish passport due to an Irish mother.
I am very lucky that I can be an EU or Irish citizen rather than a British subject. The good fortune is about personal status in relation to individual rights not because the UK is bad per se, but I do have some issues with my constitutional status in this country.
The way to deal with this is to try to help political change by use of the vote to get rid of the House of Lords and introduce proportional representation...and to eventually re join the EU.0 -
Yes. You can do this - in Cyprus for you and your family. You'll have to buy a house or other investment for €2mn though. This is very popular among Russians for some reasonbobmunro said:
That assumes that staunch unionists want to carry around a ROI passport of course.seriously_red said:
Nothing changes. If you, your parents or grandparents were born on the island of Ireland then you are eligible to apply for an Irish passport.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
I was born in Europe - can I apply for EU citizenship? My sons were born in the EU - likewise do they retain the EU passport?
. Malta is cheaper I think but you actually have to live there for a year which is not such a pleasing thought. But, then you get to roam the EU unhindered and don't actually have to go back to your island of citizenship ever again if you don't want to.
It has always surprised me that English Premier League football teams don't use this cunning wheeze (what's €2mn to them after all?) to get, say, South American players into the UK who would not otherwise qualify for a work visa.1 -
You forgot world peace Seth ;0)seth plum said:I have a lapsed British passport (born in Erith) and a current Irish passport due to an Irish mother.
I am very lucky that I can be an EU or Irish citizen rather than a British subject. The good fortune is about personal status in relation to individual rights not because the UK is bad per se, but I do have some issues with my constitutional status in this country.
The way to deal with this is to try to help political change by use of the vote to get rid of the House of Lords and introduce proportional representation...and to eventually re join the EU.
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Very interesting - something to look into.cafcfan said:
Yes. You can do this - in Cyprus for you and your family. You'll have to buy a house or other investment for €2mn though. This is very popular among Russians for some reasonbobmunro said:
That assumes that staunch unionists want to carry around a ROI passport of course.seriously_red said:
Nothing changes. If you, your parents or grandparents were born on the island of Ireland then you are eligible to apply for an Irish passport.Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
I was born in Europe - can I apply for EU citizenship? My sons were born in the EU - likewise do they retain the EU passport?. Malta is cheaper I think but you actually have to live there for a year which is not such a pleasing thought. But, then you get to roam the EU unhindered and don't actually have to go back to your island of citizenship ever again if you don't want to.
It has always surprised me that English Premier League football teams don't use this cunning wheeze (what's €2mn to them after all?) to get, say, South American players into the UK who would not otherwise qualify for a work visa.0 -
Yep, world peace and vegetarianism
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Fixed that for you.bobmunro said:
I'm not sure, but if it is then it's total bollox. I too want to be able to move freely within the EU please!Bournemouth Addick said:...
Is this for real?Red_in_SE8 said:'Everyone born in NI retains EU citizenship'? That doesn't seem fair. I want to retain my EU citizenship. As, I am sure the people of Scotland do!
It also goes against the DUP dinosaurs in them not wanting anything different in NI to the rest of the UK when it suits them.
I would direct your attention to Ian Paisley MP, who has been very outspoken in favour of Brexit but has also encouraged individuals to apply for Irish passports.2 -
I would enjoy to continue to be a citizen of Europe and have the freedom to travel, work and live across the continent, even if we do lose the benefits of being in the EU such as health cover, transit insurance, mobile roaming, card fees and other protections we have fought for. It would be a shame to at least lose these basic privileges considering the close ties we have developed in Europe just because the Tories insist on pandering to the far-right.9
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No one (save in very specific circumstances) is a British Subject anymore, stop with that nonsense.seth plum said:I have a lapsed British passport (born in Erith) and a current Irish passport due to an Irish mother.
I am very lucky that I can be an EU or Irish citizen rather than a British subject. The good fortune is about personal status in relation to individual rights not because the UK is bad per se, but I do have some issues with my constitutional status in this country.
The way to deal with this is to try to help political change by use of the vote to get rid of the House of Lords and introduce proportional representation...and to eventually re join the EU.0 -
You are right. Apologies. The British Nationality Act changed things in 1981.se9addick said:
No one (save in very specific circumstances) is a British Subject anymore, stop with that nonsense.seth plum said:I have a lapsed British passport (born in Erith) and a current Irish passport due to an Irish mother.
I am very lucky that I can be an EU or Irish citizen rather than a British subject. The good fortune is about personal status in relation to individual rights not because the UK is bad per se, but I do have some issues with my constitutional status in this country.
The way to deal with this is to try to help political change by use of the vote to get rid of the House of Lords and introduce proportional representation...and to eventually re join the EU.
It is the nature of a Monarchy that I ought to get to grips with.
I can even see some advantages in a Monarchy in that the Armed forces and the Judiciary are technically beholden to the Monarch rather than to the PM.
Would still prefer a republic though.0
