So Boris is regaining control of the borders, by a bridge across the Channel.
is there anyone left on this forum who wants to defend this oaf ?
As a reminder
- the Olympic Stadium - the Garden Bridge - The Emirates Airline cable car - the buses - the idea of an airport in the estuary (i.e. Maplin Sands, rejected 40 odd years ago, for good reasons which apply today) - and the idea of a Channel Bridge (rejected 40 odd years ago, for good reasons which apply today)
What do all these projects have in common? They are all physical entities, things that can be looked at and associated with the person who would claim to have made them happen
Of course the other thing they have in common is that all which have come to fruition are massive failures, and costing you, the taxpayer,money. Today.
Didn't Mrs T get the Dartford Bridge to happen ? Good thing or bad thing ?
Well, i do not think that Thatcher woke up one day and said "you know what?. That crossing needs a bridge" I believe that if she had anything at all to do with it, she simply intervened on the side of those advocating it. There were years of study by (brace yourself) experts addressing a problem, namely that the tunnel was reaching full capacity,and the M25 would make things much worse. (not sure of the exact chronology but sure about the problem).
The Tunnel doesn't have that problem. It's nowhere near full capacity, and until we see the effects of your beloved Brexit, most stakeholders are expecting that situation to remain. Eurostar cut trains in the autumn after Brexit.
I heard a couple of people who would earn money if a bridge was conceived, justifying it on the basis that "some people don't like a tunnel". FFS. My late Mum was one who said that, before we took her off to Lille for a Christmas lunch. I asked her if she did not recall her days commuting on the Tube. She made the journey three times subsequently. I don't much like flying in bad weather, but I just do it. I think I'd draw the line at crossing such a bridge in a Force 8 in January though. Of course I wouldn't be able to, they would close it.
What a ****ing stupid idea, the latest of several from one of the biggest planks ever to enter modern British government.
£900m his other projects have cost, @Valiantphil. And I forgot the bikes. Happy that you've paid for all that?
A bit off-topic if you will permit, but....... UK smoking ban Good idea or bad idea ?
Has he claimed credit for that too? Ah of course, it begins with a "B". Boris Ban...
Tell me why you are asking in this thread, and I will give you an answer.
You will be aware that other smoking bans are available? (i.e. they've been introduced recently in many other countries, including the one where I live).
Bit cagey over a straightforward question - yes/no/no view ?
Oh don't you worry, i've got a view that could take up an entire page, but as it is I get accused of diverting threads, sometimes rightly, so i have no wish to add to that. You've got a choice. Explain (to everyone) what your question's got to do with Brexit, or open a new thread, if there wasn't one already. Be my guest, as the new president of the free world says...
You had the first choice - answer/don't answer, but fair enough. This thread is about the influence of the EU on Britain (not Brexit), and the attitude to smoking is different in some EU countries. I was curious as to your view - but no need to bother now.
Oh, no, you are not getting away that easily.
Two points. Each country's smoking ban is different, and has been brought in at different times. You didn't seek to claim that this too was some kind of imposed EU little green men regulation that must be adhered to, against the will of the people, did you?
Second, are you familiar with the current shares of total population in each EU country who smoke (defined as at least one a day)? I think possibly not. The highest is Bulgaria. No surprise there, but the figure is only 27%. Actually it is a surprise, because until last year it was the Greeks, but to everyone's surprise they have cut their figure by 9 percentage points in the last 4 years. In Sweden the figure is only 8%. In Britain? 13.7%.
So, apart from anything else, if you want to allow pubs or restaurants to continue to have smoking areas you need to think about the people who would staff those zones. Knowing what we do about the risks of passive smoking, it would need to be the law that people only work in those zones having specifically consented. Since we allegedly have full employment, and since 86% of the population don't smoke, recruitment of such personnel might be a tad tricky, don't you think?
You had your chance. You won’t know my view, as per Stig’s observation above, but thank you for yours.
What a bizarre distraction from the thread. Almost Johnson-esque. I expect half of the regulars will be gutted that they will never know your thoughts on a smoking ban.
From an independent point of view, it really does look like 150 pages of moaning. I guess we have to wait a year to see if all the moaning turns out to be forecasting?
From my completely independent, unbiased, neutral perspective, it seems that the libcucks have been well and truly sorted by Sir Nigel. Further careful analysis of their snowflake tears will follow over the course of Britain's glorious liberation.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Interesting read. Basically suggesting that the UK won't fall off a cliff edge due to the fact that other global economies are doing well. Which is reassuring. Of course, the prediction is that the UK economy won't do as well as if it stayed in the EU, but we all knew that anyway.
You have to say, Macron has done a cracking job showing the world how to be a diplomat in the past couple of months.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
You have to say, Macron has done a cracking job showing the world how to be a diplomat in the past couple of months.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
He also said if they gave the people of France a referendum, they would likely vote OUT. Surprised (not) no-one here has mentioned that.
You have to say, Macron has done a cracking job showing the world how to be a diplomat in the past couple of months.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
He also said if they gave the people of France a referendum, they would likely vote OUT. Surprised (not) no-one here has mentioned that.
And as Macron said the situations are very different
'AM: If France had had a referendum it might have had the same result? EM: Yeah. Probably. Probably in a similar context. But our context was very – AM: very different. EM: - was very different so I don’t want – I don’t want to – to make any - I mean, to take any bets. But – but I – I would have definitely fight – fought very hard to win. But I think it’s a mistake when you just ask yes or no, when you don’t ask people how to improve the situation and to explain how to improve it. '
You have to say, Macron has done a cracking job showing the world how to be a diplomat in the past couple of months.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
He also said if they gave the people of France a referendum, they would likely vote OUT. Surprised (not) no-one here has mentioned that.
And as Macron said the situations are very different
'AM: If France had had a referendum it might have had the same result? EM: Yeah. Probably. Probably in a similar context. But our context was very – AM: very different. EM: - was very different so I don’t want – I don’t want to – to make any - I mean, to take any bets. But – but I – I would have definitely fight – fought very hard to win. But I think it’s a mistake when you just ask yes or no, when you don’t ask people how to improve the situation and to explain how to improve it. '
But that’s not what the front page headline in the Express said today
You have to say, Macron has done a cracking job showing the world how to be a diplomat in the past couple of months.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
He also said if they gave the people of France a referendum, they would likely vote OUT. Surprised (not) no-one here has mentioned that.
I think at he said at the time they would have and for different reasons, but happy to be corrected, i'm not sure anyone would argue with that, it also backs up the point i'm making.
Your primary concern seems to be what remainers think, an odd obsession for one so set in their own views.
Bit too much of a rant and the below is incorrect, at least from my perspective.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
Bit too much of a rant and the below is incorrect, at least from my perspective.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
Like you I have read the whole article.
I am less intransigent in that I am open to hearing the case for brexit, and would want to test that case for how robust it is against counter arguments.
The problem I have is that very few voices are making a case for the goodies of brexit, and those that try are sometimes feeling insulted if there is any counter argument (will of the people stuff) or are indeed actually insulted. There is also the issue that arguments for the brexit goodies is frequently lost if the debate goes in to any depth (Irish border stuff).
If the experience here is anything to go by brexiters who feel countered feel disrespected, so they disrespect in turn. Easier than engagement, although some like your good self do try to debate.
The problem for me regarding the debate on here is debate by linkage and news stories. Do we need that stuff? We are thinking people in the main and ought to be able to have a Socratic discussion on base principles backed up by our experiences and the desire to think things through for ourselves. We really don't need Nigel Farage or James O'Brien to do our thinking for us, they simply cement in entrenched views.
To me the debate is about principles and philosophy. Not about amounts of money here and there. What is sovereignty or democracy or a nation or a border, what is liberty and control, what are the rights and responsibilities we all have, what does better or worse actually mean...this kind of stuff. Links to financial issues may be informative but not very exciting for me which is why this article has interest, because it tries to deal with some of the other ideas in this hugely important issue.
Bit too much of a rant and the below is incorrect, at least from my perspective.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
That article wasn't my cup of tea either. I would say though that you are the only Brexiteer I know (even if not in person) who has actually conceded that there are circumstances where you would change your mind. All the others on here are without fail confirming his description.
Anyway, as a basis more reasonable debate, I warmly recommend Robert Peston's WTF, which i finished last night. It is not a book about Brexit but about how we can make the UK better for all its citizens. For those who have not read it, Peston is a Remainer, and furthermore declares himself to be a member of the Liberal Metropolitan Elite. (That was good, because he helped reassure me that I am not) He spends a lot of time blaming his fellow LME members for some of the mess the UK is in, which i could agree with, but further suggests late on that it is primarily for Remainers to lead the path to the best possible Brexit, which I am afraid he didn't convince me of.
He sets out some clear, bold, prescriptions for how to fix the UK, which are all well worth considering, and which are not being proposed by any mainstream politicians. It is also a tremendously human book wherein the first and last chapters are written to his recently departed father.
In fact, to quote Macron, his book is all: "Efficiency, Authority, Humanity". It had already occurred to me that if we were a Republic, where the president had a more back room role, as in Central European states, Peston would be brilliant in that role. But I doubt he would ever go near UK politics in its current form.
In every respect it is a far better book than that of Varoufakis, even if I am glad that ploughed through that too.
Bit too much of a rant and the below is incorrect, at least from my perspective.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
Unfortunately the Chippy's of this world are far more prevalent than the Stonemuses mate. I don't agree with all of it either, but the frustration he feels resonates.
I don't agree that immigrants drive down wages either - greedy bosses do that...
Bit too much of a rant and the below is incorrect, at least from my perspective.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
That article wasn't my cup of tea either. I would say though that you are the only Brexiteer I know (even if not in person) who has actually conceded that there are circumstances where you would change your mind. All the others on here are without fail confirming his description.
Anyway, as a basis more reasonable debate, I warmly recommend Robert Peston's WTF, which i finished last night. It is not a book about Brexit but about how we can make the UK better for all its citizens. For those who have not read it, Peston is a Remainer, and furthermore declares himself to be a member of the Liberal Metropolitan Elite. (That was good, because he helped reassure me that I am not) He spends a lot of time blaming his fellow LME members for some of the mess the UK is in, which i could agree with, but further suggests late on that it is primarily for Remainers to lead the path to the best possible Brexit, which I am afraid he didn't convince me of.
He sets out some clear, bold, prescriptions for how to fix the UK, which are all well worth considering, and which are not being proposed by any mainstream politicians. It is also a tremendously human book wherein the first and last chapters are written to his recently departed father.
In fact, to quote Macron, his book is all: "Efficiency, Authority, Humanity". It had already occurred to me that if we were a Republic, where the president had a more back room role, as in Central European states, Peston would be brilliant in that role. But I doubt he would ever go near UK politics in its current form.
In every respect it is a far better book than that of Varoufakis, even if I am glad that ploughed through that too.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Don't care. 1 was enough. As you know.
This is tautology, chippy mate. We already know you don't care about facts.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Don't care. 1 was enough. As you know.
This is tautology, chippy mate. We already know you don't care about facts.
I am enjoying the arguments being put forward by Ukippers on the news about the urgent need for Henry Bolton to face a leadership election, following his all-but-unanimous vote of no confidence.
It seems that many Kippers feel that, now new facts are coming to light, they made a mistake in electing Bolton. And they are saying the right thing to do is to have another vote, in the hope that a different choice is made. In short, they got it wrong last time, facts have emerged that demonstrate they got it wrong, and they'd like a chance to put that right by having another vote.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Don't care. 1 was enough. As you know.
This is tautology, chippy mate. We already know you don't care about facts.
Whose we, you and fiish.
And me. And anyone else, whether they are quitter or remainer, who can read.
Meanwhile, a huge post-Brexit boost has been announced. Seven - yes, seven! - skyscrapers are planned. And this could mean big contracts for British construction firms.
Great news, they will then be able to turn back all those undesirables before they get to Calais as they will able to see them miles from that area. No doubt the French will only put in windows looking North. We can then get our £44million back.
Yep. That's pretty much the level of debate that convinced sufficient people to scrape the initial referendum win.
If a couple of million is a scrape, wouldn't mind having a scrape or two in my bank.
A couple of million in an electorate of over 46 million would, indeed, be a scrape. But, of course, it was substantially less than that. As you know.
Don't care. 1 was enough. As you know.
This is tautology, chippy mate. We already know you don't care about facts.
Whose we, you and fiish.
And me. And anyone else, whether they are quitter or remainer, who can read.
Comments
I guess everyone will have to go back to moaning what a disaster Brexit is going to be.
I guess we have to wait a year to see if all the moaning turns out to be forecasting?
Big post-Brexit boost: seven new skyscrapers planned.
Only one, slight snag...
Interesting read. Basically suggesting that the UK won't fall off a cliff edge due to the fact that other global economies are doing well. Which is reassuring. Of course, the prediction is that the UK economy won't do as well as if it stayed in the EU, but we all knew that anyway.
The most impressive thing in his Marr interview was when he paused after he was asked about the 'shithole' comments from trump, and then denounced them unequivocally. No 'if he said them' no wry smile and a non answer, just made it clear they were unacceptable. British politicians are now totally incapable of straight answers - it has even infected (mistaken) ideologues like that dreadful John McDonnell.
'AM: If France had had a referendum it might have had the same
result?
EM: Yeah. Probably. Probably in a similar context. But our context
was very –
AM: very different.
EM: - was very different so I don’t want – I don’t want to – to
make any - I mean, to take any bets. But – but I – I would have
definitely fight – fought very hard to win. But I think it’s a mistake
when you just ask yes or no, when you don’t ask people how to
improve the situation and to explain how to improve it. '
Your primary concern seems to be what remainers think, an odd obsession for one so set in their own views.
I have outlined previously that there are circumstances which would persuade me to change my mind. Plus I do care, very much so. He is the one who sounds intransigent.
The problem, I guess, is that there's no arguing with you. No convincing to be done. You've heard the arguments, and the competing facts, and you don't care anymore.
I am less intransigent in that I am open to hearing the case for brexit, and would want to test that case for how robust it is against counter arguments.
The problem I have is that very few voices are making a case for the goodies of brexit, and those that try are sometimes feeling insulted if there is any counter argument (will of the people stuff) or are indeed actually insulted. There is also the issue that arguments for the brexit goodies is frequently lost if the debate goes in to any depth (Irish border stuff).
If the experience here is anything to go by brexiters who feel countered feel disrespected, so they disrespect in turn. Easier than engagement, although some like your good self do try to debate.
The problem for me regarding the debate on here is debate by linkage and news stories. Do we need that stuff? We are thinking people in the main and ought to be able to have a Socratic discussion on base principles backed up by our experiences and the desire to think things through for ourselves. We really don't need Nigel Farage or James O'Brien to do our thinking for us, they simply cement in entrenched views.
To me the debate is about principles and philosophy. Not about amounts of money here and there. What is sovereignty or democracy or a nation or a border, what is liberty and control, what are the rights and responsibilities we all have, what does better or worse actually mean...this kind of stuff. Links to financial issues may be informative but not very exciting for me which is why this article has interest, because it tries to deal with some of the other ideas in this hugely important issue.
Anyway, as a basis more reasonable debate, I warmly recommend Robert Peston's WTF, which i finished last night. It is not a book about Brexit but about how we can make the UK better for all its citizens. For those who have not read it, Peston is a Remainer, and furthermore declares himself to be a member of the Liberal Metropolitan Elite. (That was good, because he helped reassure me that I am not) He spends a lot of time blaming his fellow LME members for some of the mess the UK is in, which i could agree with, but further suggests late on that it is primarily for Remainers to lead the path to the best possible Brexit, which I am afraid he didn't convince me of.
He sets out some clear, bold, prescriptions for how to fix the UK, which are all well worth considering, and which are not being proposed by any mainstream politicians. It is also a tremendously human book wherein the first and last chapters are written to his recently departed father.
In fact, to quote Macron, his book is all: "Efficiency, Authority, Humanity". It had already occurred to me that if we were a Republic, where the president had a more back room role, as in Central European states, Peston would be brilliant in that role. But I doubt he would ever go near UK politics in its current form.
In every respect it is a far better book than that of Varoufakis, even if I am glad that ploughed through that too.
I don't agree that immigrants drive down wages either - greedy bosses do that...
It seems that many Kippers feel that, now new facts are coming to light, they made a mistake in electing Bolton. And they are saying the right thing to do is to have another vote, in the hope that a different choice is made. In short, they got it wrong last time, facts have emerged that demonstrate they got it wrong, and they'd like a chance to put that right by having another vote.
Because that's how democracy works, isn't it?
This is a nice piece - fairly simplistic.
https://www.facebook.com/notes/howard-aiken/youre-not-hearing-what-im-saying/10160043548015691/