The influence of the EU on Britain.
Comments
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Many a true word ... and all that.ShootersHillGuru said:
As soon as Arlene Foster has agreed the wording.seth plum said:What time is the Prime Minister making her speech...and winning me over?
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Fine, but just cos you think different from me, means your right and i am wrong.ShootersHillGuru said:
Well that’s conclusive then.Chippycafc said:
Combination of all of that , but some will do it as they haven't got the balls to say they f*****d up.ShootersHillGuru said:
Surely if companies are making redundancies its because they are not doing so well. Yes there will be those that are struggling because of poor management but to make workers redundant means that at some point you needed them. If orders are falling it’s more likely because of economic trends rather than company after company just screwing up.Chippycafc said:
Every bad company will do the same... Good time to bury bad news... Ie make redundancies and blame brexit.Southbank said:
Every crap boss is blaming Brexit just now.Stig said:
Just a day after Travis Perkins reported Brexit as a cause of their profits drop. Jeez this magical Brexit wonderland had better be bloody good to make up for the economic problems it's causing.Bournemouth Addick said:
Apologies, never good to quote from the FT due to their paywall...Stig said:
What's it say?Bournemouth Addick said:I'm sure this will be filed under Project Fear...
"https://www.ft.com/content/11614614-1ca0-11e8-956a-43db76e69936"
"Failing to strike a Brexit deal would put "hundreds of thousands" of jobs in the car industry at risk, MPs have said...
bbc.com/news/business-43226102
Still...no deal's better than a bad deal and all that.
'Wait and see' they say, 'we can't predict the future, but there might be some benefits'. Absolute madness.
To be honest I don’t think any company would actually be in the position to be laying off staff if previously they hadn’t had the balls to be actual businessmen. Sorry Chippy but that’s not a credible answer you gave is it ? I do see how it fits your narrative though.
Carillion are a prime example.0 -
I agree. Carillion are a prime example of a company that got things spectacularly wrong. There will always be companies of all sizes that get things wrong and go to the wall. What’s not in question though is Carillion didn’t get to that point by not being ruthless with its employees and associates when it suited. The reason they went to the wall was nothing to do with them not having the cahones to ditch people. They went belly up because they ran their business badly.Chippycafc said:
Fine, but just cos you think different from me, means your right and i am wrong.ShootersHillGuru said:
Well that’s conclusive then.Chippycafc said:
Combination of all of that , but some will do it as they haven't got the balls to say they f*****d up.ShootersHillGuru said:
Surely if companies are making redundancies its because they are not doing so well. Yes there will be those that are struggling because of poor management but to make workers redundant means that at some point you needed them. If orders are falling it’s more likely because of economic trends rather than company after company just screwing up.Chippycafc said:
Every bad company will do the same... Good time to bury bad news... Ie make redundancies and blame brexit.Southbank said:
Every crap boss is blaming Brexit just now.Stig said:
Just a day after Travis Perkins reported Brexit as a cause of their profits drop. Jeez this magical Brexit wonderland had better be bloody good to make up for the economic problems it's causing.Bournemouth Addick said:
Apologies, never good to quote from the FT due to their paywall...Stig said:
What's it say?Bournemouth Addick said:I'm sure this will be filed under Project Fear...
"https://www.ft.com/content/11614614-1ca0-11e8-956a-43db76e69936"
"Failing to strike a Brexit deal would put "hundreds of thousands" of jobs in the car industry at risk, MPs have said...
bbc.com/news/business-43226102
Still...no deal's better than a bad deal and all that.
'Wait and see' they say, 'we can't predict the future, but there might be some benefits'. Absolute madness.
To be honest I don’t think any company would actually be in the position to be laying off staff if previously they hadn’t had the balls to be actual businessmen. Sorry Chippy but that’s not a credible answer you gave is it ? I do see how it fits your narrative though.
Carillion are a prime example.
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I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.Chippycafc said:
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.PragueAddick said:
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.Southbank said:
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why.Chizz said:The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
And the same for Remainers.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...1 -
The credible poll companies don’t allow people to participate just because they want to. You are selected on strict criteria.i_b_b_o_r_g said:
I think that some people go out their way to go on polling sites and participate, where as the silent majority don't and I have personally never heard of anyone being randomly asked in the street or online to get involved.Chippycafc said:
You mention opinion polls..has anyone ever been asked or know anyone who has, in any poll, as i never have or know anyone who has.PragueAddick said:
I doubt you will get anyone replying, saying they have changed, as the only regular contributors are here because they feel strongly about the issue ( plus the odd troll, of course). The opinion polls have tracked a shift to a modest Remain majority and at some stage one of the polling companies will do some qualitative research to answer the "why" question.Southbank said:
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why.Chizz said:The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
And the same for Remainers.
Anyway, Theresa May is going to bring the country together in her speech, so it's all going to be ok...
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I voted leave by the smallest of margins if I can put it that way. Cameron wasn't impressing me in terms of his negotiations with Brussels. I honestly thought the Jo Cox brutal murder was a tipping point to swing undecideds to a remain vote that would win by a margin of at least 55/45.Southbank said:
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why.Chizz said:The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
And the same for Remainers.
A lot has changed in the Uk and Europe since June 2016. A different prime minister and cabinet. Resurgence of Corbyn and a socialist agenda. UKIP a farce. And vince cable and the lib dems virtuallly invisible.
In Europe we have seen the rise of Macron the weakening of merkel and ebb and flow of the far right in Austria and Holland.
I think of myself as pro European but uncomfortable with the Eu as an institution. Frank Field is the politician who I would align myself with as he has stated he believes it to be a corrupt and fraudulent organisation. He has seen a few of those in this country.
Of the offerings on the table at the moment I would far prefer kier Starmers approach than that of the fox Johnson gove group.
Let's see what Theresa May comes out with today.
But on balance if I was given a second referendum vote I would probably abstain as I am so 50/50 I think I would leave it those who feel more powerfully about it than me. I would strongly hope the young would vote in high numbers and one would guess for remain as that would probably tip the balance for remain as I think it would have done in 2016.5 -
Very good post.Imissthepeanutman said:
I voted leave by the smallest of margins if I can put it that way. Cameron wasn't impressing me in terms of his negotiations with Brussels. I honestly thought the Jo Cox brutal murder was a tipping point to swing undecideds to a remain vote that would win by a margin of at least 55/45.Southbank said:
I would be interested to know if any Leave voters on this forum had changed their minds since the referendum and why.Chizz said:The idea that "the democratic process" works by taking a single snapshot opinion at one point in time and then ignore all circumstances that subsequently come to light is probably the most nonsensical "reality" that has come out of the Brexit process.
A fair, clear and unarguable decision was made back in 2016. That is a fact and that fact remains. But it's not a fact that conditions, circumstances and situations remain unaltered. Indeed it is also not true that the electorate remains permanently unchanged.
The claim that "democracy" is established by ignoring all the requirements, desires and aspirations if every part of the electorate except for some representatives of the "winning" side is completely nonsensical. And the idea that "democracy" is served by permanently ignoring any change in opinion is bizarre.
Surely no-one genuinely believes that democracy is the opposite of continually soliciting the aspirations of the populace.
And the same for Remainers.
A lot has changed in the Uk and Europe since June 2016. A different prime minister and cabinet. Resurgence of Corbyn and a socialist agenda. UKIP a farce. And vince cable and the lib dems virtuallly invisible.
In Europe we have seen the rise of Macron the weakening of merkel and ebb and flow of the far right in Austria and Holland.
I think of myself as pro European but uncomfortable with the Eu as an institution. Frank Field is the politician who I would align myself with as he has stated he believes it to be a corrupt and fraudulent organisation. He has seen a few of those in this country.
Of the offerings on the table at the moment I would far prefer kier Starmers approach than that of the fox Johnson gove group.
Let's see what Theresa May comes out with today.
But on balance if I was given a second referendum vote I would probably abstain as I am so 50/50 I think I would leave it those who feel more powerfully about it than me. I would strongly hope the young would vote in high numbers and one would guess for remain as that would probably tip the balance for remain as I think it would have done in 2016.0 -
Agreed. Very good post peanuts.0
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Are we going to get another meaningless sound bite phrase from our gormless leader today? I am already sick of the latest one....."Managed Divergence".0
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You can have fun with this:Red_in_SE8 said:Are we going to get another meaningless sound bite phrase from our gormless leader today? I am already sick of the latest one....."Managed Divergence".
http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html
My first stab was:
continually develop tactical - but then I couldn't find 'bollocks' in the final list.1 -
Can't wait for Theresa to clear everything up with this speech. Doing away with the rhetoric and pointless sound bites, setting out clearly how it is going to work out whilst bringing the country back together.
Failing that, Brexit = Brexit.0 -
Oh okay. They are going to listen0
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Not me @PragueAddick but my wife. She loves a questionnaire(!) and also signed up for the YouGov thing as per @Fiiish . As a result she quite often gets calls from pollsters and researchers...and about a 100 sales calls a week!PragueAddick said:
What's the methodology, how do they reach you in the first place?Fiiish said:I regularly do YouGov polling (although it is slightly flawed as it is a form of voodoo polling) and they often throw in a question about who you intend to vote for or how you would vote in a second referendum.
YouGov like most of the bigger companies will deploy several different methodologies, and you won't be surprised to hear that some are more expensive than others, so ultimately "who is paying" is important.
I am getting interested in this topic because my wife is an MR pro and we are having discussions about this. After she pointed me towards Eurobarometer, which is run by the European Commission, I studied some of the output, and started to worry that the results are too optimistic ( I.e. too favourable to a pro- EU viewpoint). It helps nobody to have research with inbuilt bias in the sample.
@Bournemouth Addick would love to hear your experience too, do you recall how they got to you, and which polling company it was?1 -
So far she’s said fuck all.0
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What utter BS jargon1
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She is doing well at selling this EU thing to me. When can we join?11
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Did she really just say that. No infrastructure at the ROI / NI border. If the eu do that it’s up to them. She really is devolving all responsibility.0
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She’s just laid down the terms of a no deal hard Brexit.0
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It's alright. It'll be just like moving from one London borough to another. Easy.ShootersHillGuru said:Did she really just say that. No infrastructure at the ROI / NI border. If the eu do that it’s up to them. She really is devolving all responsibility.
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Broadest and Deepest0
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Listening to the PM.
So,she has, whilst trying to claim that the EU might "force" Ireland to introduce border controls, stated that the UK will put in place no border controls at all, and no infrastructure (presumably even ANPR style cameras). So, should there be no trading agreement arrived at, how do we all feel about Professor Mnford's unilateral free trade idea, because that is what the commitment means?
And, if, in a no deal situation, there are no controls (including standards, sanitary and phytosanitary checks for foodstuffs), does this not mean that the same should be offered to every other country?
She is either just too dim to understand the rules of world trade, delusional or lying.3 -
Give her a chance. She's only been PM for eighteen months...ShootersHillGuru said:So far she’s said fuck all.
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Can't it be all 3?NornIrishAddick said:Listening to the PM.
So,she has, whilst trying to claim that the EU might "force" Ireland to introduce border controls, stated that the UK will put in place no border controls at all, and no infrastructure (presumably even ANPR style cameras). So, should there be no trading agreement arrived at, how do we all feel about Professor Mnford's unilateral free trade idea, because that is what the commitment means?
And, if, in a no deal situation, there are no controls (including standards, sanitary and phytosanitary checks for foodstuffs), does this not mean that the same should be offered to every other country.
She is either just too dim to understand the rules of world trade, delusional or lying.7 -
She wants to say as much as possible without actually saying anything.NornIrishAddick said:Listening to the PM.
So,she has, whilst trying to claim that the EU might "force" Ireland to introduce border controls, stated that the UK will put in place no border controls at all, and no infrastructure (presumably even ANPR style cameras). So, should there be no trading agreement arrived at, how do we all feel about Professor Mnford's unilateral free trade idea, because that is what the commitment means?
And, if, in a no deal situation, there are no controls (including standards, sanitary and phytosanitary checks for foodstuffs), does this not mean that the same should be offered to every other country.
She is either just too dim to understand the rules of world trade, delusional or lying.
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rhetoric (noun):ShootersHillGuru said:
She wants to say as much as possible without actually saying anything.NornIrishAddick said:Listening to the PM.
So,she has, whilst trying to claim that the EU might "force" Ireland to introduce border controls, stated that the UK will put in place no border controls at all, and no infrastructure (presumably even ANPR style cameras). So, should there be no trading agreement arrived at, how do we all feel about Professor Mnford's unilateral free trade idea, because that is what the commitment means?
And, if, in a no deal situation, there are no controls (including standards, sanitary and phytosanitary checks for foodstuffs), does this not mean that the same should be offered to every other country.
She is either just too dim to understand the rules of world trade, delusional or lying.
language designed to have a persuasive or impressive effect, but which is often regarded as lacking in sincerity or meaningful content.2 -
Bold and Creative0
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Cold and Berative - surely?Red_in_SE8 said:Bold and Creative
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I see she has also still banging the drum for small businesses to be able to move goods across the Irish border without any form of oversight (which does seem to be a bit impossible outside of the Single Market and Customs Union, not just if the UK does sign FTAs with the likes of the USA).
I'm not even slightly impressed - the services strand, in particular, seems to be a reversion to the "they need us much more than we need them" argument.
There's been almost nothing of substance, IMHO - some sort of pratical suggestions would have been welcome - it's still jut a wish list.
I'd like to do all sorts of things, it doesn't mean that they will happen.5 -
No solution to the border beyond saying to the EU can have one if they want but the UK won't have one.
A valve structure where all the world that can get stuff into Ireland will flow unhindered into the UK (#canofworms), but stuff going to the EU, through Ireland and presumably elsewhere like Dover is subject to EU checks, and presumably UK checks at places like Dover, Felixstow and Heathrow.
This would be about physical stuff, I don't know about services and people but is there any chance it would work. A one way flow?0
