The influence of the EU on Britain.

Leave were told they would get all of the good stuff but none of the bad. Cake and eat it was the phrase I believe.

So the leave voters have been let down, but not by May - Bojo, Farage, Dr Fox et al all lied.

golfaddick said:

Can't be arsed to read over 170 posts since my last visit.

All I will say is that TM is a,liar & can't be trusted to run a whelk stall. For over 2 years she has repeatedly stated that No Deal is better than a bad deal. Now, when she finally has a deal that is worse than we already have....and pisses all over her "red lines"....all we hear is that it's "this deal or nothing".

Well.......you can piss off & the the rest of the government with you. There will be so much arm twisting, cajoling & bribing over the next 2 weeks it will make Dubai's winning of hosting the 2022 WC look kosher. I expect her deal to get through Parliament as 300 odd Tory MP's will vote for their own future's & not for what the public voted for.

Shame on the lot of them.

Dubai aren't hosting the 2022 World Cup, maybe Dominic Raab put it out there

golfaddick said:

Can't be arsed to read over 170 posts since my last visit.

All I will say is that TM is a,liar & can't be trusted to run a whelk stall. For over 2 years she has repeatedly stated that No Deal is better than a bad deal. Now, when she finally has a deal that is worse than we already have....and pisses all over her "red lines"....all we hear is that it's "this deal or nothing".

Well.......you can piss off & the the rest of the government with you. There will be so much arm twisting, cajoling & bribing over the next 2 weeks it will make Dubai's winning of hosting the 2022 WC look kosher. I expect her deal to get through Parliament as 300 odd Tory MP's will vote for their own future's & not for what the public voted for.

Shame on the lot of them.

I agree with you golfie. However. Did you expect us to get a deal as good as the one we currently have as members ? It would be impossible and thats the knub of the whole brexit lie. How many people fell for it and you have to ask just how gullible were they.

Sound bite....read the detail of the speech.

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

Sound bite....read the detail of the speech.

To the average voter, what are they more likely to do? Read a whole speech or take in the sound bites.

Then there's the labelling of every negative prediction regarding the economy being smeared as "Project Fear" by the Leave campaigners.

Maybe David Davis needs to come with footnotes.

"There will be no downside to Brexit. Only a considerable upside." *

* - Not true. Will actually be many downsides and no upside. Please see speech for more details.

randy andy said:

seth plum said:

Upsides and downsides are usually with reference to the financials. There is quite a lot more to brexit than that.

Yep, Brexit is the biggest loss of rights in modern British history, difficult to forgive those who have blithely voted for me to lose my rights, and galling to have them claim me losing rights as some sort of victory.

There are few Brexiters claiming victory I think you will find.

randy andy said:

seth plum said:

Upsides and downsides are usually with reference to the financials. There is quite a lot more to brexit than that.

Yep, Brexit is the biggest loss of rights in modern British history, difficult to forgive those who have blithely voted for me to lose my rights, and galling to have them claim me losing rights as some sort of victory.

That's the rub isn't it?

There is absolutely no version of this where myself or my friends or family are any better off. The waste of taxpayers' time and money on this farce has already negatively effected us all. Plus all the damage done to the economy. Once we do actually leave, there are zero benefits forthcoming for anyone except those at the top looking to reap the benefits of their hedging against the UK. For the other 99% of us there is no gains to be had and much to be lost.

Red_in_SE8 said:

Amber Rudd’s comments this morning about Parliament not allowing a “no deal” Brexit could be quite a significant change of tactic by the government. She has just rejoined the cabinet; I can’t believe she has already decided to contradict May’s stated view that the choice is her deal or a no deal without permission. I think, possibly, May’s new tactic is her deal or a second referendum or no Brexit.

Hope you’re right but you rarely are.

randy andy said:

Southbank said:

randy andy said:

seth plum said:

Upsides and downsides are usually with reference to the financials. There is quite a lot more to brexit than that.

Yep, Brexit is the biggest loss of rights in modern British history, difficult to forgive those who have blithely voted for me to lose my rights, and galling to have them claim me losing rights as some sort of victory.

There are few Brexiters claiming victory I think you will find.

Maybe not now, but for much of the last two years we've heard nothing, but "leave won, get over it", like I'm supposed to jsut get over my rights being stolen and the financial security of myself, my children and my eventual grandchildren (remember Rees-Mogg blithely saying it could take 50 years before there is any upside?) needlessly put at risk, and to gain what? Please tell me something, anything that is worth what is being forcibly taken from me? It's been over 2 years and nobody can tell me anything that comes even close to being worth what I'm losing.

Forcibly or democratically?

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

randy andy said:

Southbank said:

randy andy said:

seth plum said:

Upsides and downsides are usually with reference to the financials. There is quite a lot more to brexit than that.

Yep, Brexit is the biggest loss of rights in modern British history, difficult to forgive those who have blithely voted for me to lose my rights, and galling to have them claim me losing rights as some sort of victory.

There are few Brexiters claiming victory I think you will find.

Maybe not now, but for much of the last two years we've heard nothing, but "leave won, get over it", like I'm supposed to jsut get over my rights being stolen and the financial security of myself, my children and my eventual grandchildren (remember Rees-Mogg blithely saying it could take 50 years before there is any upside?) needlessly put at risk, and to gain what? Please tell me something, anything that is worth what is being forcibly taken from me? It's been over 2 years and nobody can tell me anything that comes even close to being worth what I'm losing.

Forcibly or democratically?

Even if we ignore the fact that it wasn't a binding referendum, that the result was a rounding error in size and that referenda aren't actually recognised by our parliamentary democracy. It's only democratic if the electorate are informed, it's clearly spelt our what will happen for each of the given options (you know, like countries that actually use referenda properly do) and the referendum is conducted under full election law.

What we had was a purely advisory popularity contest where the contestants could tell any lies they liked with impunity apparently.

It's was, and remains, a twisted corruption of the democratic process in this country, that promised the undeliverable to the uninformed.

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

Interesting article this morning

Mainly the product of the failure of social democrats to represent their traditional working class supporters.
It is also misleading to call this effect 'right wing' as left wing populists like Melenchon in France and Corbyn have also gained influence.

Southbank said:

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

Interesting article this morning

Mainly the product of the failure of social democrats to represent their traditional working class supporters.
It is also misleading to call this effect 'right wing' as left wing populists like Melenchon in France and Corbyn have also gained influence.

It's actually mainly the product of the rise of groups funded by very powerful and wealthy individuals with vested interests espousing populist ideals and operating online using data manipulation and social engineering to operate in areas with poor legal safeguards or where current laws and policing are not up to date to deal with subversive methods of manipulating and defrauding the electorate.

Means three in four don't. And what's "populist" - not saying the article is wrong (I've not read it), but if trump is populist then that is about half of America.

Southbank said:

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

Interesting article this morning

Mainly the product of the failure of social democrats to represent their traditional working class supporters.
It is also misleading to call this effect 'right wing' as left wing populists like Melenchon in France and Corbyn have also gained influence.

Fiiish said:

Southbank said:

A-R-T-H-U-R said:

Interesting article this morning

Mainly the product of the failure of social democrats to represent their traditional working class supporters.
It is also misleading to call this effect 'right wing' as left wing populists like Melenchon in France and Corbyn have also gained influence.

It's actually mainly the product of the rise of groups funded by very powerful and wealthy individuals with vested interests espousing populist ideals and operating online using data manipulation and social engineering to operate in areas with poor legal safeguards or where current laws and policing are not up to date to deal with subversive methods of manipulating and defrauding the electorate.

Agree with both. There's always going to be a section of society (and it's mainly going to be the working class for obvious reasons) who finger left out. Tensions can easily be stoked and manipulated, though thats not to say there isn't some merit behind some of the arguments (most certainly not all of them)