Oh boy more Corbyn talk, we haven't had that for at least half a page. I was getting worried.
Yeah, fancy talking about the leader of the opposition on a politics thread. Almost as bad as mentioning the Tory leadership vote of no confidence which has "no relevance to the people of our country"
Come on here to read about and discuss Brexit and after it has been clearly established that Corbyn has offered absolutely nothing of use on it, and probably helped add to the dismal situation the UK finds itself in, I can't see that there is much else to say about him. Definitely needs his own thread unless it's about his specific involvement, or lack of, in Brexit. Also, Corbyn's 'cult' just seems like one of those lazy slogans we see these days which serves to replace proper discussion with a kind of emotive buzzword but is ultimately meaningless.
Come on here to read about and discuss Brexit and after it has been clearly established that Corbyn has offered absolutely nothing of use on it, and probably helped add to the dismal situation the UK finds itself in, I can't see that there is much else to say about him. Definitely needs his own thread unless it's about his specific involvement, or lack of, in Brexit. Also, Corbyn's 'cult' just seems like one of those lazy slogans we see these days which serves to replace proper discussion with a kind of emotive buzzword but is ultimately meaningless.
It is a cult which is why all criticism gets closed down.
Mustn't discuss, mustn't criticise is the very definition of a cult.
Genuine question @Henry Irving . Have you actually met Corbyn? I've read more about Corbyn on here than Brexit, but if we take out your posts there's little left. It feels a bit.personal. For an ineffectual opposition leader (who is sadly focussed on bins) he seems to have gotten under your skin in the same way my mother in law has to me. My mother in law has a key to my house and comes round whenever she feels like it. Does Corbyn have your key?
I've been critical of the Labour politicians that the BBC have given airtime to lately, but to be fair to the BBC it did not appoint them as shadow ministers.
In May 2009 Jenkin was reported by The Daily Telegraph to have used £50,000 in expenses to pay his sister-in-law rent on the property he uses as his constituency home. Jenkin claimed that he was just paying "an honest and reasonable rent" for the property.[11] On 27 October 2009, it was initially recommended that Bernard Jenkin pay back £63,250 by expenses auditor Sir Thomas Legg. This is the highest amount known to have been recommended after an audit of MPs' claims on second homes expenses.[12][13] This amount was reduced to £36,250 following an appeal.[14]
This is the kind of politician now driving the UK.
The UK parliament eventually cleaned house on expenses, the EU continues to allow MEPs to trouser cash as they please.
Just a quick search of - "UKIP MEP expenses fraud" , throws up plenty of guilty names
Indeed, why just pick on Jenkin when everybody's at it, all the way across Europe.
I wouldn't want to "patronise" you again, so I am sure you understood perfectly well my main point in the post about Bernard Jenkin. I'll ask you again though, if you approve of his activities as an MP, today and over the last 26 years? Given the choice in your constituency, whom would you vote for, him, Yvette Cooper or Ed Davey?
The main point I took from your original post was that you don't think much of Eurosceptic Jenkin and that you object to the likes of him taking over the agenda. You then proceed to get in a cheap, needless dig against Southbank and then drag up his past Jenkin's expenses shames, which, while they are an indication of the man's character, are wholly unconnected to any of his opinions on Europe. Remainers are on thin ice if they are calling Brexit politicians out on expenses fraud. It is practically built in to the EU parliament which continues to condone and defend MEPs dubious practices and resists any reform. The ECJ have recently just backed them up to the hilt. That's £4400 of taxpayers money a month for each of the 750 MEPs, and the EU tell us we have no right to know what it's spent on, regardless of whether it goes on constituency offices or crack-whores.
As for how I would vote, it's really none of your business. Nobody owns my vote and if anybody wants it they have to earn it. By natural inclination, I'm more likely to vote Labour but I refuse to do so while the party is led by Jeremy Corbyn. For the first time in my life I am considering not voting at all. I never thought I'd ever come to this but I am totally disgusted by our elected representatives
The point about Southbank is that he and Jenkin both focus on "sovereignty" as their reason for Brexit; both get the alleged loss of sovereignty wrong on multiple occasions (in Jenkin's case at least because he is a shameless liar), while neither can explain how leaving the EU will make the personal lives of UK citizens better. In Jenkin's case it is even worse because he is supposed to represent his constituents on multiple issues, but the only 'thing' of note on his Wikipedia page beyond his obsession with Europe was that he was one of the high-end expenses fiddlers, which tells me he is a ****.
The issue I have with your view is the implication ( that I drew, anyway) that European politicians are more corrupt because they are European, while we Brits cleared all that up because we are Brits. My point is that it was only cleared up by the behaviour of determined journalists and activists, and now it is creeping back in again. The same type of activists are determined to get the same result re the European MEPs. I want to make the case that power corrupts, everywhere, and it helps nobody to pretend that we Brits are more immune to it than anyone else, especially in a Brexit context. One problem re MEPs is that because of the low voter turnout for the EP, each country elects and sends more extremists, in our case a load of UKIP, who as others point out, fiddled their expenses on an industrial scale as part of their 'mandate" not to represent us but to fuck the place up. They are exactly the MEPs who have resisted the push for transparency. All the activists I know working on this (from various countries) are massively pro the EU as an institution. They are as contemptuous of crooked politicians as you are.
Of course you are not obliged to tell me about how you vote. I was just curious to know whether your response implied that you support Jenkin and his political type. Turns out that we are on almost the same point on the political spectrum. Just another example of the tragic question. Why are we all tearing each other apart over the massive irrelevance that is Brexit.?
I think it's an incorrect characterization of the situation to suggest that extremist MEPs put a stop to expenses reform. That proposal was voted down by the Parliament's governing body (behind closed doors, surprise, surprise). There are 15 MEPs in that group including the Parliament's president, none of them swivel-eyed extremists as far as I'm aware. The nutters don't get anywhere near plum jobs like that.
The ECJ had the chance to help put that right by granting the freedom of information request that the EU parliament rejected, but in the end fell in line right alongside them. Hiding behind the fig leaf of privacy they effectively told Europe's taxpayers they have no right to know how £40m a year of their taxes is spent.
It's the institutions of the EU that allow this corrupt carry on to happen and they could stop it tomorrow if they wanted to. I've seen the same sort of thing in the RAF. Honest men that I'd trust my life with to fly me into dangerous places if necessary, rinsing the arse out of expenses just because the system allowed them too. That was over fairly trifling amounts of money. MEPs have £50,000 a year dangled in front of them, no questions asked. How many people in the EU even take home a £50,000 salary? Is it any wonder MEPs are held in contempt.
As for people being rude to each other about Brexit, I agree, it's tiresome in the extreme. Anybody who foolishly pops in here to post anything counter to the Remainer group-think has their posts forensically dissected and, if they're lucky, get away without any personal insults. Brexit is already harming the economy. People waste 40 minutes at a time googling stuff to rebut any anti-EU statement they come across when they should be getting on with their job!
To be fair to Henry, he is merely pointing out that cultists like me have their brains rewired so we become fixated on a person to the exclusion of everything else.
Genuine question @Henry Irving . Have you actually met Corbyn? I've read more about Corbyn on here than Brexit, but if we take out your posts there's little left. It feels a bit.personal. For an ineffectual opposition leader (who is sadly focussed on bins) he seems to have gotten under your skin in the same way my mother in law has to me. My mother in law has a key to my house and comes round whenever she feels like it. Does Corbyn have your key?
Why bleat about that I talk about Corbyn on this thread, but ignore the fact that so have many others, but then ask for a response regarding Corbyn which you know requires me to talk about him again.
No, never met him but I find his active support for terrorists and anti-Semites in those groups and in the labour party abhorrent.
I thought I had made that clear but obviously not so clearly I'll have to continue to talk about him even if the cult members on here don't like that.
Genuine question @Henry Irving . Have you actually met Corbyn? I've read more about Corbyn on here than Brexit, but if we take out your posts there's little left. It feels a bit.personal. For an ineffectual opposition leader (who is sadly focussed on bins) he seems to have gotten under your skin in the same way my mother in law has to me. My mother in law has a key to my house and comes round whenever she feels like it. Does Corbyn have your key?
Why bleat about that I talk about Corbyn on this thread, but ignore the fact that so have many others, but then ask for a response regarding Corbyn which you know requires me to talk about him again.
No, never met him but I find his active support for terrorists and anti-Semites in those groups and in the labour party abhorrent.
I thought I had made that clear but obviously not so clearly I'll have to continue to talk about him even if the cult members on here don't like that.
Are people that find Corbyn useless but don't really want to talk about him also part of this cult? The general consensus on here seems to be that he is a bit of a waste of time - I don't really see anyone worshipping him, or many people praising him generally. Anyway, this should be on a different thread!
I guess it's now down to May to decide. Part of me would like to see Johnson or Rees-Mogg fail to get anything out of the EU but that would be as big a disaster as he who must be named getting in.
In all honesty it probably isn't that awful in itself. What is awful is she has a plan she is trying to sell that nobody will buy. She is just wasting time. This government has gone way past the point of being a laughing stock so I'm not sure they can really make it any worse.
Genuine question @Henry Irving . Have you actually met Corbyn? I've read more about Corbyn on here than Brexit, but if we take out your posts there's little left. It feels a bit.personal. For an ineffectual opposition leader (who is sadly focussed on bins) he seems to have gotten under your skin in the same way my mother in law has to me. My mother in law has a key to my house and comes round whenever she feels like it. Does Corbyn have your key?
Worse than that, he caught Corbyn wearing one of his cardigans.
He is Anti-Semitic for example, the Labour party is 'rife' with it, he is a 'friend' of terrorists, 'controlled' by Momentum or Len McClusky, a communist mole, an IRA gun runner and so on.
The thing is it only takes a moment to declare something is so, and a few hours to debunk it.
The ratio of crap to truth on the internet is simply too much for truth to have any chance of ever catching up because of the rate crap can be churned out.
Here is a new 'fact'. Jeremy Corbyn is secretly cultivating magic mushrooms in his allotment shed, and using them along with an exotic combination of herbs to drug labour MP's one by one to become his cult followers.
Rubbish you might shout.
Ah
But can you prove it's not true huh?
Of course he wouldn't admit it would he?
What is palpably obvious to one person is less so to another, so we have a declaration regarding a hierarchy of truth or facts where my ones are 'obviously' better than your ones.
The internet seems to be demanding a new definition of, and a new approach to plain common sense.
One starting point might be to assume that 100% of everything on the internet and media is total bollocks and whittle it down from there.
This thread has had its nominees, but this might just be the biggest straw man I’ve seen.
It’s almost as if youve copied and pasted and replaced “trump” with Corbyn there.
Not at all. Just recently I have been reading a book called 'Post Truth' by a writer called James Ball which has led me to ponder on the matter.
One example he gives is that the US Government had been secretly stockpiling 30,000 Guillotines, stored in internment camps, one in Alaska large enough for two million people, ready to wipe out second amendment supporters at a rate of three million an hour once Hilary Clinton got elected. You can't prove it didn't happen.
The entire internet is populated by straw men and women if you like.
If you say I am refuting an argument made by Henry about Corbyn, by talking about something he didn't say at all, then you are incorrect. I am not refuting whether Corbyn is the Devil Incarnate or Nelson Mandela's blood brother, I am pointing out how quick and easy it is to declare something, and I am talking about how the subtle, even unconscious, use of language can infiltrate an issue to make it unreliable and opaque.
If it helps, I read a book once that claimed if you run into a wall at Kings Cross station you get a free education at a dead posh private school.
Genuine question @Henry Irving . Have you actually met Corbyn? I've read more about Corbyn on here than Brexit, but if we take out your posts there's little left. It feels a bit.personal. For an ineffectual opposition leader (who is sadly focussed on bins) he seems to have gotten under your skin in the same way my mother in law has to me. My mother in law has a key to my house and comes round whenever she feels like it. Does Corbyn have your key?
Worse than that, he caught Corbyn wearing one of his cardigans.
Are people that find Corbyn useless but don't really want to talk about him also part of this cult? The general consensus on here seems to be that he is a bit of a waste of time - I don't really see anyone worshipping him, or many people praising him generally. Anyway, this should be on a different thread!
I think he is a decent bloke and like his policies. I accept others don't. I didn't not so long ago. I just changed my mind. I don't think you can accuse me of being part of a cult for doing that - mind you I do chant 'Oh Jeremy Corbyn' repeatedly for 20 minutes each evening whilst burning scented candles. But I think I would need to do that for at least an hour before it becomes cult like behaviour.
He is Anti-Semitic for example, the Labour party is 'rife' with it, he is a 'friend' of terrorists, 'controlled' by Momentum or Len McClusky, a communist mole, an IRA gun runner and so on.
The thing is it only takes a moment to declare something is so, and a few hours to debunk it.
The ratio of crap to truth on the internet is simply too much for truth to have any chance of ever catching up because of the rate crap can be churned out.
Here is a new 'fact'. Jeremy Corbyn is secretly cultivating magic mushrooms in his allotment shed, and using them along with an exotic combination of herbs to drug labour MP's one by one to become his cult followers.
Rubbish you might shout.
Ah
But can you prove it's not true huh?
Of course he wouldn't admit it would he?
What is palpably obvious to one person is less so to another, so we have a declaration regarding a hierarchy of truth or facts where my ones are 'obviously' better than your ones.
The internet seems to be demanding a new definition of, and a new approach to plain common sense.
One starting point might be to assume that 100% of everything on the internet and media is total bollocks and whittle it down from there.
This thread has had its nominees, but this might just be the biggest straw man I’ve seen.
It’s almost as if youve copied and pasted and replaced “trump” with Corbyn there.
Not at all. Just recently I have been reading a book called 'Post Truth' by a writer called James Ball which has led me to ponder on the matter.
One example he gives is that the US Government had been secretly stockpiling 30,000 Guillotines, stored in internment camps, one in Alaska large enough for two million people, ready to wipe out second amendment supporters at a rate of three million an hour once Hilary Clinton got elected. You can't prove it didn't happen.
The entire internet is populated by straw men and women if you like.
If you say I am refuting an argument made by Henry about Corbyn, by talking about something he didn't say at all, then you are incorrect. I am not refuting whether Corbyn is the Devil Incarnate or Nelson Mandela's blood brother, I am pointing out how quick and easy it is to declare something, and I am talking about how the subtle, even unconscious, use of language can infiltrate an issue to make it unreliable and opaque.
If it helps, I read a book once that claimed if you run into a wall at Kings Cross station you get a free education at a dead posh private school.
An interesting observation! May wins the right to continue uninterrupted by the ERG for another 12 months.
However, this ups the stakes as now the only way to change the leadership of the country is a no confidence in the government / defection by the Tory remainers who hold the balance of power.
The angles are extremely complex so perhaps let the journos, analysts and markets give their feedback.
It's still unclear how the WA will become law or what alternative might prevail. Meanwhile my pint of Guiness in a Dublin bar has just been charged at £5.33 (on €5.70) on my card - ouch!
I have a mate who voted leave simply because he hates David Cameron. I know somebody who voted leave to stop the terrorist immigrants - not a friend I must add. Mind you this Taxi driver probably is much more important than them as his reasons for voting trumps everybody elses!
Comments
get a roomset up a thread to go into depth about the subject...Mustn't discuss, mustn't criticise is the very definition of a cult.
The ECJ had the chance to help put that right by granting the freedom of information request that the EU parliament rejected, but in the end fell in line right alongside them. Hiding behind the fig leaf of privacy they effectively told Europe's taxpayers they have no right to know how £40m a year of their taxes is spent.
It's the institutions of the EU that allow this corrupt carry on to happen and they could stop it tomorrow if they wanted to. I've seen the same sort of thing in the RAF. Honest men that I'd trust my life with to fly me into dangerous places if necessary, rinsing the arse out of expenses just because the system allowed them too. That was over fairly trifling amounts of money. MEPs have £50,000 a year dangled in front of them, no questions asked. How many people in the EU even take home a £50,000 salary? Is it any wonder MEPs are held in contempt.
As for people being rude to each other about Brexit, I agree, it's tiresome in the extreme. Anybody who foolishly pops in here to post anything counter to the Remainer group-think has their posts forensically dissected and, if they're lucky, get away without any personal insults. Brexit is already harming the economy. People waste 40 minutes at a time googling stuff to rebut any anti-EU statement they come across when they should be getting on with their job!
Play nice, kids. It's only Brexit.
No, never met him but I find his active support for terrorists and anti-Semites in those groups and in the labour party abhorrent.
I thought I had made that clear but obviously not so clearly I'll have to continue to talk about him even if the cult members on here don't like that.
"You lost, get over it"
I guess it's now down to May to decide.
Part of me would like to see Johnson or Rees-Mogg fail to get anything out of the EU but that would be as big a disaster as he who must be named getting in.
His casual phase
I wonder if he switched from White Hart Lane to The Valley also?
However, this ups the stakes as now the only way to change the leadership of the country is a no confidence in the government / defection by the Tory remainers who hold the balance of power.
The angles are extremely complex so perhaps let the journos, analysts and markets give their feedback.
It's still unclear how the WA will become law or what alternative might prevail. Meanwhile my pint of Guiness in a Dublin bar has just been charged at £5.33 (on €5.70) on my card - ouch!