The influence of the EU on Britain.

PragueAddick said:

Leuth said:

Prague, it's not that you're necessarily wrong, but you have to be SO careful when you generalise. The optics are so easy to misjudge. So while I'd agree that there are a lot of nonsense justifications for a Brexit vote, it isn't really worth using the word 'uneducated' at all. You're winning nobody over, and you're alienating everyone who doesn't want to read between the lines. And as we've established, that is a lot of people

Up to a point you are right, (although I wrote "less educated") and because I was writing the original line in haste, and with some ire, it wasn't as clear as it could have been.

However I would like to say this about the dialogue on here, and the 'standards' we should adhere to. These "optics" are of course essential for politicians who seek to lead and to influence. This is a forum of football fans, we are (unless otherwise declared) representing ourselves, nothing more, and we are all equal. I'm getting a bit sick of being told how careful Remainers have to be not to "patronise" the Brexit side, while people on the Brexit side can come on here and write, e.g. nothing more than "Fuck the EU" and then run away, or LOL (without follow up) a post asserting nothing more controversial than why we have run out of time for a referendum. Is that worthy of respect? Not in my book. Not when the evidence of the monstrous consequences of the vote are mounting up for all to see.

@PragueAddick You would be better of using the term "Thick fucks' which seemed to garner support across the leave/remain divide when I used it the other day. Smiley thing.

Covered End said:

Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.

The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.

The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.

So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.

No, the reason the Labour Government sought "high levels" of immigration is because we need more people of working age to pay the pensions and the healthcare costs of the increasing numbers of OAPs, due to the combination of increasing life spans and the demographic bulge that is the Baby Boomer generation.

el-pietro said:

Covered End said:

seriously_red said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

PragueAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

It would probably be in January - It would mean article 50 would have to be put on hold. Which it will be because the EU's preferred option is us not leaving at all. We do have to grow a pair. In many ways, it is better we don't rush into the referendum and do it after May's vote. What is completely unbelievable with some, and I include you in that Prague with all respect, is that winning the referendum is as important as getting it. If it looks like Remainers have constructed this, it will be harder to win. If it is a last resort, it is infinitely better. We have to fall into it.

Mate, let's try again. In order to have a referendum, the Government of the day has to want it, and to get a Referendum Bill passed in the HoC. Given that May's WA debate has been put back to mid Jan, that's half that month gone. Everyone expects her to lose. Even if the very next day she says "OK, let's have another referendum" you've seen for yourself that there is no agreement within her party for that, indeed Rees-Mogg will doubtless grab the Mace and attack her with it in the name of "democracy". Then even if the principal of a referendum is agreed, they need a further debate about the questions. And then, they need to get it drafted and through Parliament. There is no way.

You're a printer, there must have been times, especially in the pre digital age, you had to tell a client that it's simply too late?

All the time,even in this digital age, people tend to leave things to the last minute for all sorts of reasons, but my point is that it isn't too late. And when Labour don't get their desired election, there is a majority for a referendum in the house when there isn't a majority for anything else. The problem is that the majority is small and requires Tory MPs who might change their mind. So we should all be worried, but the numbers do work. They might be more likely to work the nearer the edge of the cliff we are although it is frustrating.

I think you have to have faith in two things - which I do - and that is there are enough sensible Tories who won't allow the damage a hard Brexit will cause and secondly, you have to believe the EU will be supportive around us having a second vote, and I think they will, especially as they have hinted so.

I simply can't believe that the least popular option which everybody who is remotely sensible can see has the potential to be highly damaging will be allowed to happen.

It is frustrating that the no confidence vote in the Government hasn't happened, but it is important that May's plan is given its chance to be passed first. The delay is the fault of the government and nobody else.

It is a good point about the questions. This I am unsure about, but if a referendum is voted on, couldn't the terms of the referendum be included in that vote. I think and hope that some of the Christmas break time will be spent with like minded people of all parties working out the strategy and the numbers and the question so it plays out as soon as May's deal has been voted against.

The damage inflicted by a xenophobic campaign banging on about immigration 24/7 has led to where we are today

Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.

The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.

The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.

So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.

Immigration isn't the cause. If it were then the areas with high immigration would be more likely to vote Leave. That is not what happened. Wealth inequality is the real cause but it suits the UK government to allow people to blame immigration because they are responsible for wealth inequality and either have no answers for it, or don't want to solve the problem.

Quite and if Labour had allowed the debate/discussion this may have been avoided.
They could have tried harder to explain about wealth inequality, but they didn't do/say enough.
They simply closed down anyone trying to discuss the matter by calling them racists and bigots.

Covered End said:

seriously_red said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

PragueAddick said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

It would probably be in January - It would mean article 50 would have to be put on hold. Which it will be because the EU's preferred option is us not leaving at all. We do have to grow a pair. In many ways, it is better we don't rush into the referendum and do it after May's vote. What is completely unbelievable with some, and I include you in that Prague with all respect, is that winning the referendum is as important as getting it. If it looks like Remainers have constructed this, it will be harder to win. If it is a last resort, it is infinitely better. We have to fall into it.

Mate, let's try again. In order to have a referendum, the Government of the day has to want it, and to get a Referendum Bill passed in the HoC. Given that May's WA debate has been put back to mid Jan, that's half that month gone. Everyone expects her to lose. Even if the very next day she says "OK, let's have another referendum" you've seen for yourself that there is no agreement within her party for that, indeed Rees-Mogg will doubtless grab the Mace and attack her with it in the name of "democracy". Then even if the principal of a referendum is agreed, they need a further debate about the questions. And then, they need to get it drafted and through Parliament. There is no way.

You're a printer, there must have been times, especially in the pre digital age, you had to tell a client that it's simply too late?

All the time,even in this digital age, people tend to leave things to the last minute for all sorts of reasons, but my point is that it isn't too late. And when Labour don't get their desired election, there is a majority for a referendum in the house when there isn't a majority for anything else. The problem is that the majority is small and requires Tory MPs who might change their mind. So we should all be worried, but the numbers do work. They might be more likely to work the nearer the edge of the cliff we are although it is frustrating.

I think you have to have faith in two things - which I do - and that is there are enough sensible Tories who won't allow the damage a hard Brexit will cause and secondly, you have to believe the EU will be supportive around us having a second vote, and I think they will, especially as they have hinted so.

I simply can't believe that the least popular option which everybody who is remotely sensible can see has the potential to be highly damaging will be allowed to happen.

It is frustrating that the no confidence vote in the Government hasn't happened, but it is important that May's plan is given its chance to be passed first. The delay is the fault of the government and nobody else.

It is a good point about the questions. This I am unsure about, but if a referendum is voted on, couldn't the terms of the referendum be included in that vote. I think and hope that some of the Christmas break time will be spent with like minded people of all parties working out the strategy and the numbers and the question so it plays out as soon as May's deal has been voted against.

The damage inflicted by a xenophobic campaign banging on about immigration 24/7 has led to where we are today

Yes, but that wasn't the start, that was the result.

The start was the "left" not allowing anyone to discuss their concerns, not about immigration, but about the HIGH LEVELS of immigration, without being called racist or bigot.

The Labour government deliberately sought HIGH LEVELS of immigration to rub the oppositions noses in it.

So, UKIP was formed and started to grow as more central parties were too afraid to speak out.

Immigration was weaponised by the right. That's where Windrush and "limiting immigration to the tens of thousands" came from. It's a classic device to divide and deflect the working class vote and was juxtaposed with uber low interest rates enabling those with capital to make a killing.

For sure one million polish people came to the UK but today there is net emigration for the EU. Labour looked for high EU immigration to keep wage inflation pressures down and to influence the electoral mix.Think about that for a minute...

The Labour Party front bench imported cheaper foreign Labour to undercut wage rates and undermine organised labour. And still people want a Macron / Blair type third way merchant back. And people wonder why the left have questions about the Single Market.

And so one agrees 100% that the centrist parties across Europe lost their way. Not just out of touch with their constituents but way too focussed on inflation and GDP growth - numbers on spreadsheets!

As posted a couple of times before, the centrists have lost 25% of the electorate since 2014 across Europe which proves your point. German liberals and hippies running ferries and rescue boats in the Med enabled people traffickers to push close to 1M refugees a year across.

And that's why one should welcome Corbyn, Labour, the new Spanish government and the shake up in Germany as the centre right loses a grip. We need a new philosophy and new approaches for this post crash era.

We absolutely need a genuine debate about the benefits of a single market when one of the outcomes of freedom of movement (and globalisation) has been to keep wages down for 20-30 years. This is not to be a Luddite and fight progress - simply a recognition that in a democracy the whole population has a vote - and there's a reason for that.

ThreadKiller said:

https://twitter.com/gavinesler/status/1075463697705902082?s=19

Racist Brexit scum. These are the people who hurled racist abuse at a non white Sky reporter. And these are the people we are being told to not upset. Because they voted for the first time in their lives in the referendum it means their vote is more important than mine or anyone else’s! Apparently, we must not upset them by having a second confirming referendum as regularly happens in other countries. Bannon and Putin are behind the sudden emergence of these Brexit fascists.

The Organiser said:

No, I think you just shouldn’t generalise all leavers as the same. Simple as that.

If you are referring to the post above yours, I don't think he is doing that at all. It's a segment. A nasty violent segment, that is being stirred up by some pretty sinister people. They can't have a free ride. Just as we have to isolate and call out the nasty violent twats that give England supporters abroad a bad name.

Quite, I’ve got no problem with the post above in response to a specific video giving clear context.

The post however implies that’s he’s been told he shouldn’t criticise in that vein, which is misleading.

The same poster has used the same or similar attacks in more general terms, which doesn’t help matters and it is those which some of us are saying he shouldn’t be doing.

A little light reading

https://www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-think

Still what do they know?

Guess which are real and which are fake...



EC regulations to ban playgrounds – Daily Express
Rolling acres outlawed by Brussels – The Telegraph
EU to scrap British exams – Sunday Express
Obscure EU law halting the sale of English oak seeds – Mail on Sunday
EU may try to ban sweet and toy ads – The Times
EU to tell British farmers what they can grow – Daily Mail
EU ‘Bans Boozing’ – Daily Star
Light ale to be forced to change its name by Eurocrats – Daily Mail
EU fanatics to be forced to sing dire anthem about EU ‘Motherland’ – The Sun
British apple trees facing chop by EU – The Times
EC plan to ban noisy toys – Sunday People
EU to ban bagpipes and trapeze artists – The Sun
Children to be banned from blowing up balloons, under EU safety rules – Daily Telegraph
Straight cucumbers – The Sun
Curved bananas banned by Brussels bureaucrats – The Sun, Daily Mail, Daily Express
Brussels bans barmaids from showing cleavage – The Sun, Daily Telegraph
Rumpole’s wig to scrapped by EU – Mail on Sunday
Church bells silenced by fear of EU law – Daily Telegraph
Motorists to be charged to drive in city centres under EU plans – Daily Telegraph
EU to stop binge drinking by slapping extra tax on our booze – The Sun
Brandy butter to be renamed ‘brandy spreadable fat’ – The European
British loaf of bread under threat from EU – Daily Mail
Truckers face EU ban on fry-ups – The Sun
EU to ban Union Flag from British meat packs – Daily Express
EU seeks to outlaw 60 dog breeds – Europa News Agency
Double-decker buses to be banned – Daily Telegraph
EU bans eating competition cakes – Timesonline
Now EU officials want control of your CANDLES – Daily Express
21-gun salutes are just too loud, Brussels tells the Royal Artillery – Mail on Sunday
Brussels threatens charity shops and car boot sales – Daily Mail
Plot to axe British number plates for standardised EU design – Daily Express
Women to be asked intimate details about sex lives in planned EU census – Daily Express
British cheese faces extinction under EU rules – PA News
EU meddlers ban kids on milk rounds – The Sun, The Telegraph
British chocolate to be renamed ‘vegelate’ under EU rules – Daily Mail
EU to ban church bells – Daily Telegraph
British film producers warn of new EU threat to industry – The Independent
Kilts to be branded womenswear by EU – Daily Record EU to ban double decker buses – Daily Mail
Cod to be renamed ‘Gadus’ thanks to EU – Daily Mail
Brussels to restrict drinking habits of Britain’s coffee lovers – Daily Express
EU responsible for your hay fever – Daily Mail, The Times
Condom dimensions to be harmonised – Independent on Sunday
EU wants to BAN your photos of the London Eye – Daily Express
Corgis to be banned by EU – Daily Mail
EU forcing cows to wear nappies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats to ban crayons and colouring pencils – The Sun
Smoky bacon crisps face EU ban – Sunday Times
EU outlaws teeth whitening products – Daily Mail
Domain names – ‘.uk’ to be replaced by ‘.eu’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to ban HGV drivers from wearing glasses – The Times
New eggs cannot be called eggs – Daily Mail
EU to ban selling eggs by the dozen – Daily Mail UK to be forced to adopt continental two pin plug – Daily Star, Daily Mail
EU targets traditional Sunday roast – Sun on Sunday
English Channel to be re-named ‘Anglo-French Pond’ – Daily Mail
Brussels to force EU flag on England shirts – Daily Mail
EU orders farmers to give toys to pigs – The Times
Firemen’s poles outlawed by EU – Daily Mail
Euro ban on food waste means swans cannot be fed – The Observer
Noise regulations to force football goers to wear earplugs – The Sun
Traditional Irish funeral under threat from EU – Daily Telegraph, The Times
EU to ban high-heel shoes for hairdressers – Daily Express
Commission to force fishermen to wear hairnets – Daily Telegraph
Brussels to ban herbal cures – Daily Express
Bureaucrats declare Britain is “not an island”– the Guardian
EU bid to ban life sentences for murderers – Daily Express
New EU map makes Kent part of France – Sunday Telegraph
EU tells Welsh how to grow their leeks – The Times
EU to ban lollipop ladies’ sticks – News of the World
EU plot to rename Trafalgar Square & Waterloo station – Daily Express
UK milk ‘pinta’ threatened by Brussels – The Sun
EU bans ‘mince’ pies – Daily Mail
Eurocrats say Santa must be a woman – The Sun
Now EU crackpots demand gypsy MPs – Daily Express
Brussels to outlaw mushy peas – The Sun, Daily Mail, Telegraph, Times
Brussels says shellfish must be given rest breaks on journeys – The Times
Pets must be pressure cooked after death – Sunday Telegraph
EU puts speed limit on children’s roundabouts – Daily Express
2-for-1 bargains to be scrapped by EU – Daily Mirror
EU madness: chat up bar girl and pub will be fined – Daily Star
Queen to be forced to get her own tea by EU – The Sun
EU tells women to hand in worn-out sex toys – The Sun
British rhubarb to be straight – The Sun
EU to ban rocking horses – The Sun
Scotch whisky rebranded a dangerous chemical by EU – Daily Telegraph
Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times
“High up” signs to be put on mountains – BBC
Euronotes cause impotence – Daily Mail
EU to ban under 16-year-olds from using Facebook – Daily Mail
Strawberries must be oval – The Sun
EU orders swings to be pulled down – Daily Express
Tea bags banned from being recycled – BBC
British lav to be replaced with Euro-loo – The Sun
Unwanted Valentine’s cards to be defined as sexual harrasment – Daily Telegraph
Bosses to be told what colour carpets to buy by EU – Daily Star
EU says British yoghurt to be renamed ‘Fermented Milk Pudding’ – Sunday Mirror
EU to ban zipper trousers – The Sun
EU loophole could see 77 MILLION Turks head to Britain, warn Farage and Johnson




They’re all real.

they have appeared as real headlines but how many are fake news?

Stu_of_Kunming said:

The really worrying thing is you expect that bollocks from shitemags like The Sun/Mail/Daily Star, but The Telegraph and Times are supposed to be 'real' papers.

The Times is the one that really gets me. Pure reactionary positioning masquerading as the voice of neutral reason. That said, the FT is the only paper with any sort of balanced perspective right now

Brussels ban on pints of shandy – The Times

At least they had some good ideas!

seriously_red said:

Covered End said:

Net emigration for the EU ?

Net immigration from the EU was reported as down 75% to 74,000 for YTD (from 300,000 pa in 2016).

And potentially negative for one quarter earlier this year - so that becomes net emigration to the EU27! Cant find the link.

A mix of sterling going down, uncertainty and bad PR is changing patterns before we even leave the EU.

I thought as much. You do like a fib at times.