Savings and Investments thread

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

Igolfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

I’m in the dispute resolution game and have noted in recent years the increased number of enquiries that are arising in commercial litigation from chancer type potential clients who want representation on a no win no fee basis . Big risk with that as you are banking on the client coming up to proof at trial 1 to 2 years down the line and the judge not considering him / her to be a complete clown , no documents affecting liability or quantum coming out in disclosure that would change the prospects completely and the judge not being a complete clot and cocking up the law / facts after the trial process alternatively someone with deep pockets on the other side who might try to out money you in a war of costs attrition to judgment . These are just a few of the perils of that type of litigation . Are there any comparable investment / savings schemes out there in equities / future trading ? A “ no yield no fee “ type arrangements so that the person who sells you the investment doesn’t get paid anything unless it increases in value ? Really interested in that and comparison to the lawyer contemplating a client who wants you to “ put your money where ya mouth is mate “ who doesn’t realise the gamble that you are having to take on him / her to get paid whilst funding the overheads of your law practice . The people that I deal with either as clients who I have to defend or acquaintances are generally useless bottom feeder  “ Tribal Traders “ chasing one big commission or the other somewhere in the Canary Wharf or “ Guaranteed Bonus Goons “ who sign up to US Banks or US hedge funds who will pay them the most they can wangle and who have no understanding of eg MIFID or what they are suppose  to be selling until they get moved on in the latest round of redundancies implemented by Head Office in NYK ,Boston or Chicago . Financial services cannot be made up completely by these  types of idiots masquerading as “ Masters of the Universe “ . But can anyone recommend anything and who I can trust “ if they told me that it was raining “?! Thanks 

Que....??

(Puts shoe to ear ) hello ... can you recommend anything ?? No yield no fee - you don’t get paid unless the investment increases in value . ??? 

 So what happens when trump go to (trade) war with China & the markets fall 15% like they did the latter part of last year (and the start of this week). I can make recommendations as to the better funds to invest in, or which asset classes to be in....but I cant read minds or 2nd guess the market.

Thanks for your insight . You have helped if not with any “ no yield no fee “ investments but in  particular with the sort of lines that as a lawyer I should be using in future when approached by people asking for “ no win no fee” litigation.  

On a variation of a theme.......I started off as a financial advisor by working for the Prudential in their "home service" division......aka an insurance salesman. Basic salary of (then) c 15k pa with commission on top. 28 years later (19 as an IFA) I will still see clients for an initial meeting with no mention of a fee. Fees will generally then be discussed if we decide to move forward & I feel that I can help. I'm happy with a no help, no fee basis & feel that you have to speculate to accumulate. Nothing is ever lost going to see a client for nothing. 

I too see clients for an initial meeting without charge and having been a litigator for over 25 years mostly quite successfully . I agree with the concept of throwing bread  on the water / speculation to see what that it might lead to . I think that where we differ however is that you are not prepared to enter into arrangements where as a financial advisor you get paid only if the investment yields whereas I will do no win no fee litigation if I believe in the case , it’s financial and legal merit and I think that the client / any other witness is not likely to be viewed by the judge as a complete clown . Interesting that you have not been able to mention a single no yield no fee type investment despite your years of experience in your field . Post 2008 in particular I would think that the time is ripe for a massive shake up in the financial services industry and in particular with respect to payment for so called expert  advice just as has happened in litigation where for centuries the law did not recognise “Champerty and Maintenance  “ type arrangements.Think of the money that could be made on successful “ no yield no fee type “ investments with arrangements allowing a mark up on fees if the advisor gets it right . Think instead of Woodford etc if he or she gets it wrong and gets paid nothing in consequence . 

But as I said, its not as simple as saying "no yield (by which I take it you mean growth) no fee". I could get all my "bets" right in terms of which funds or asset class to invest in, only to find Trump invades N.Korea, or Labour gets into power & the stock market tanks. There are a multitude of reasons why stock markets & therefore investments go up & down and a financial advisor has no way of knowing what is going to happen next & how that is going to affect his investment decision. The reason why "no yield no fee" doesn't exist in financial services is because the concept wouldnt work. A financial advisor is not aiming to get a "yield" in all circumstances, but merely trying to better the clients monetary position - be that by tax planning or diversification of assets.

 I think you are trying to compare apples with pears when you are looking at your industry against mine. 

ashley said:

Igolfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

I’m in the dispute resolution game and have noted in recent years the increased number of enquiries that are arising in commercial litigation from chancer type potential clients who want representation on a no win no fee basis . Big risk with that as you are banking on the client coming up to proof at trial 1 to 2 years down the line and the judge not considering him / her to be a complete clown , no documents affecting liability or quantum coming out in disclosure that would change the prospects completely and the judge not being a complete clot and cocking up the law / facts after the trial process alternatively someone with deep pockets on the other side who might try to out money you in a war of costs attrition to judgment . These are just a few of the perils of that type of litigation . Are there any comparable investment / savings schemes out there in equities / future trading ? A “ no yield no fee “ type arrangements so that the person who sells you the investment doesn’t get paid anything unless it increases in value ? Really interested in that and comparison to the lawyer contemplating a client who wants you to “ put your money where ya mouth is mate “ who doesn’t realise the gamble that you are having to take on him / her to get paid whilst funding the overheads of your law practice . The people that I deal with either as clients who I have to defend or acquaintances are generally useless bottom feeder  “ Tribal Traders “ chasing one big commission or the other somewhere in the Canary Wharf or “ Guaranteed Bonus Goons “ who sign up to US Banks or US hedge funds who will pay them the most they can wangle and who have no understanding of eg MIFID or what they are suppose  to be selling until they get moved on in the latest round of redundancies implemented by Head Office in NYK ,Boston or Chicago . Financial services cannot be made up completely by these  types of idiots masquerading as “ Masters of the Universe “ . But can anyone recommend anything and who I can trust “ if they told me that it was raining “?! Thanks 

Que....??

(Puts shoe to ear ) hello ... can you recommend anything ?? No yield no fee - you don’t get paid unless the investment increases in value . ??? 

 So what happens when trump go to (trade) war with China & the markets fall 15% like they did the latter part of last year (and the start of this week). I can make recommendations as to the better funds to invest in, or which asset classes to be in....but I cant read minds or 2nd guess the market.

Thanks for your insight . You have helped if not with any “ no yield no fee “ investments but in  particular with the sort of lines that as a lawyer I should be using in future when approached by people asking for “ no win no fee” litigation.  

On a variation of a theme.......I started off as a financial advisor by working for the Prudential in their "home service" division......aka an insurance salesman. Basic salary of (then) c 15k pa with commission on top. 28 years later (19 as an IFA) I will still see clients for an initial meeting with no mention of a fee. Fees will generally then be discussed if we decide to move forward & I feel that I can help. I'm happy with a no help, no fee basis & feel that you have to speculate to accumulate. Nothing is ever lost going to see a client for nothing. 

I too see clients for an initial meeting without charge and having been a litigator for over 25 years mostly quite successfully . I agree with the concept of throwing bread  on the water / speculation to see what that it might lead to . I think that where we differ however is that you are not prepared to enter into arrangements where as a financial advisor you get paid only if the investment yields whereas I will do no win no fee litigation if I believe in the case , it’s financial and legal merit and I think that the client / any other witness is not likely to be viewed by the judge as a complete clown . Interesting that you have not been able to mention a single no yield no fee type investment despite your years of experience in your field . Post 2008 in particular I would think that the time is ripe for a massive shake up in the financial services industry and in particular with respect to payment for so called expert  advice just as has happened in litigation where for centuries the law did not recognise “Champerty and Maintenance  “ type arrangements.Think of the money that could be made on successful “ no yield no fee type “ investments with arrangements allowing a mark up on fees if the advisor gets it right . Think instead of Woodford etc if he or she gets it wrong and gets paid nothing in consequence . 

There is also a big difference in the reward for a no win no fee arrangement if you stand to make a good few thousand pounds as a percentage of what the Courts award which might be in the hundreds of thousands, compared to a percentage of a few thousand from the yield on a modest investment.  

Nor is there an equivalent to an adviser advising a client who wants capital protection rather than yield or only modest growth so as to minimise capital risk.

It's the investment manager not the adviser that determines the outcome relative to market movements, the adviser can only help choose a manager that is most likely to meet the clients objectives.  Some managers will offer a fixed fee plus a performance related fee where growth is the objective, which is analogous to a no win no fee arrangement.

And I am generally a cynic on financial advisers, but they don't deserve unwarranted kickings. 

golfaddick said:

Dippenhall said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

Igolfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

I’m in the dispute resolution game and have noted in recent years the increased number of enquiries that are arising in commercial litigation from chancer type potential clients who want representation on a no win no fee basis . Big risk with that as you are banking on the client coming up to proof at trial 1 to 2 years down the line and the judge not considering him / her to be a complete clown , no documents affecting liability or quantum coming out in disclosure that would change the prospects completely and the judge not being a complete clot and cocking up the law / facts after the trial process alternatively someone with deep pockets on the other side who might try to out money you in a war of costs attrition to judgment . These are just a few of the perils of that type of litigation . Are there any comparable investment / savings schemes out there in equities / future trading ? A “ no yield no fee “ type arrangements so that the person who sells you the investment doesn’t get paid anything unless it increases in value ? Really interested in that and comparison to the lawyer contemplating a client who wants you to “ put your money where ya mouth is mate “ who doesn’t realise the gamble that you are having to take on him / her to get paid whilst funding the overheads of your law practice . The people that I deal with either as clients who I have to defend or acquaintances are generally useless bottom feeder  “ Tribal Traders “ chasing one big commission or the other somewhere in the Canary Wharf or “ Guaranteed Bonus Goons “ who sign up to US Banks or US hedge funds who will pay them the most they can wangle and who have no understanding of eg MIFID or what they are suppose  to be selling until they get moved on in the latest round of redundancies implemented by Head Office in NYK ,Boston or Chicago . Financial services cannot be made up completely by these  types of idiots masquerading as “ Masters of the Universe “ . But can anyone recommend anything and who I can trust “ if they told me that it was raining “?! Thanks 

Que....??

(Puts shoe to ear ) hello ... can you recommend anything ?? No yield no fee - you don’t get paid unless the investment increases in value . ??? 

 So what happens when trump go to (trade) war with China & the markets fall 15% like they did the latter part of last year (and the start of this week). I can make recommendations as to the better funds to invest in, or which asset classes to be in....but I cant read minds or 2nd guess the market.

Thanks for your insight . You have helped if not with any “ no yield no fee “ investments but in  particular with the sort of lines that as a lawyer I should be using in future when approached by people asking for “ no win no fee” litigation.  

On a variation of a theme.......I started off as a financial advisor by working for the Prudential in their "home service" division......aka an insurance salesman. Basic salary of (then) c 15k pa with commission on top. 28 years later (19 as an IFA) I will still see clients for an initial meeting with no mention of a fee. Fees will generally then be discussed if we decide to move forward & I feel that I can help. I'm happy with a no help, no fee basis & feel that you have to speculate to accumulate. Nothing is ever lost going to see a client for nothing. 

I too see clients for an initial meeting without charge and having been a litigator for over 25 years mostly quite successfully . I agree with the concept of throwing bread  on the water / speculation to see what that it might lead to . I think that where we differ however is that you are not prepared to enter into arrangements where as a financial advisor you get paid only if the investment yields whereas I will do no win no fee litigation if I believe in the case , it’s financial and legal merit and I think that the client / any other witness is not likely to be viewed by the judge as a complete clown . Interesting that you have not been able to mention a single no yield no fee type investment despite your years of experience in your field . Post 2008 in particular I would think that the time is ripe for a massive shake up in the financial services industry and in particular with respect to payment for so called expert  advice just as has happened in litigation where for centuries the law did not recognise “Champerty and Maintenance  “ type arrangements.Think of the money that could be made on successful “ no yield no fee type “ investments with arrangements allowing a mark up on fees if the advisor gets it right . Think instead of Woodford etc if he or she gets it wrong and gets paid nothing in consequence . 

But as I said, its not as simple as saying "no yield (by which I take it you mean growth) no fee". I could get all my "bets" right in terms of which funds or asset class to invest in, only to find Trump invades N.Korea, or Labour gets into power & the stock market tanks. There are a multitude of reasons why stock markets & therefore investments go up & down and a financial advisor has no way of knowing what is going to happen next & how that is going to affect his investment decision. The reason why "no yield no fee" doesn't exist in financial services is because the concept wouldnt work. A financial advisor is not aiming to get a "yield" in all circumstances, but merely trying to better the clients monetary position - be that by tax planning or diversification of assets.

 I think you are trying to compare apples with pears when you are looking at your industry against mine. 

ashley said:

Igolfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

golfaddick said:

ashley said:

I’m in the dispute resolution game and have noted in recent years the increased number of enquiries that are arising in commercial litigation from chancer type potential clients who want representation on a no win no fee basis . Big risk with that as you are banking on the client coming up to proof at trial 1 to 2 years down the line and the judge not considering him / her to be a complete clown , no documents affecting liability or quantum coming out in disclosure that would change the prospects completely and the judge not being a complete clot and cocking up the law / facts after the trial process alternatively someone with deep pockets on the other side who might try to out money you in a war of costs attrition to judgment . These are just a few of the perils of that type of litigation . Are there any comparable investment / savings schemes out there in equities / future trading ? A “ no yield no fee “ type arrangements so that the person who sells you the investment doesn’t get paid anything unless it increases in value ? Really interested in that and comparison to the lawyer contemplating a client who wants you to “ put your money where ya mouth is mate “ who doesn’t realise the gamble that you are having to take on him / her to get paid whilst funding the overheads of your law practice . The people that I deal with either as clients who I have to defend or acquaintances are generally useless bottom feeder  “ Tribal Traders “ chasing one big commission or the other somewhere in the Canary Wharf or “ Guaranteed Bonus Goons “ who sign up to US Banks or US hedge funds who will pay them the most they can wangle and who have no understanding of eg MIFID or what they are suppose  to be selling until they get moved on in the latest round of redundancies implemented by Head Office in NYK ,Boston or Chicago . Financial services cannot be made up completely by these  types of idiots masquerading as “ Masters of the Universe “ . But can anyone recommend anything and who I can trust “ if they told me that it was raining “?! Thanks 

Que....??

(Puts shoe to ear ) hello ... can you recommend anything ?? No yield no fee - you don’t get paid unless the investment increases in value . ??? 

 So what happens when trump go to (trade) war with China & the markets fall 15% like they did the latter part of last year (and the start of this week). I can make recommendations as to the better funds to invest in, or which asset classes to be in....but I cant read minds or 2nd guess the market.

Thanks for your insight . You have helped if not with any “ no yield no fee “ investments but in  particular with the sort of lines that as a lawyer I should be using in future when approached by people asking for “ no win no fee” litigation.  

On a variation of a theme.......I started off as a financial advisor by working for the Prudential in their "home service" division......aka an insurance salesman. Basic salary of (then) c 15k pa with commission on top. 28 years later (19 as an IFA) I will still see clients for an initial meeting with no mention of a fee. Fees will generally then be discussed if we decide to move forward & I feel that I can help. I'm happy with a no help, no fee basis & feel that you have to speculate to accumulate. Nothing is ever lost going to see a client for nothing. 

I too see clients for an initial meeting without charge and having been a litigator for over 25 years mostly quite successfully . I agree with the concept of throwing bread  on the water / speculation to see what that it might lead to . I think that where we differ however is that you are not prepared to enter into arrangements where as a financial advisor you get paid only if the investment yields whereas I will do no win no fee litigation if I believe in the case , it’s financial and legal merit and I think that the client / any other witness is not likely to be viewed by the judge as a complete clown . Interesting that you have not been able to mention a single no yield no fee type investment despite your years of experience in your field . Post 2008 in particular I would think that the time is ripe for a massive shake up in the financial services industry and in particular with respect to payment for so called expert  advice just as has happened in litigation where for centuries the law did not recognise “Champerty and Maintenance  “ type arrangements.Think of the money that could be made on successful “ no yield no fee type “ investments with arrangements allowing a mark up on fees if the advisor gets it right . Think instead of Woodford etc if he or she gets it wrong and gets paid nothing in

I appreciate some of the points that have been made in particular  about  the comparison between legal cases and financial advice . It seems to me however that in accepting all of Golf Addict’s rationale then there is an inherent problem in that’ the financial advisor could never be held fully accountable for what turns out to be a dog of an investment . It would always be possible for the advisor to say “ well all the research pointed to that being the right thing to do at the time but the following day Great Aunt Maud’s Cat got stuck up a tree and that adversely impacted the investment so I am in no way to blame whatsoever and that will be my usual percentage charge thanks very much !! “ . I think that one is to an extent comparing apples with apples as in each scenario expert advice is being sought by the client . The financial advisor has to be accountable for advice given whatever happens after the investment is suggested and “no yield no fee “ requires both commitment to what is being suggested and “some skin in the game “. I don’t know if there will be a change in the law after I take on a case that means that I have to ditch it and lose payment if on a no win no fee . How would I know that there might be a change in the law when I take the case on although things might be suggesting that at the outset just like events might suggest that “ Trump will invade North Korea” although you can’t know that he will  . Like I said before I think that time is ripe for a shake up in financial services advice and the next recession when it arrives might , who knows , usher that in . Otherwise I might just decide to pick very carefully indeed from the many ten a penny financial  advisors with razor rash ,  wearing a shiny suit and reporting back into some “Wealth Management Death Star” or other in Canary Wharf ! Either that or I could simply press a button on a computer that runs an algorithm on investment advice or apply Artificial  intelligence to a pension arrangement and cut these people out altogether for all the use they provide at times ... until I have to defend them once again and get them off the hook for their errors  when they come knocking on my office door .

I also meant to add that yes, the financial advisor does not, and can not, be held accountable for any losses that an investment might sustain, as long as it can be shown that the investment itself was appropriate for the client & matched their attitude to risk. 

Even one of the main principles of the 14 day cooling of period, where you can scrap your investment & get your money back should you change your mind, is that if the investment has lost money in that time period you will only get back the current value.....and not necessarily the original amount invested. 

golfaddick said:

I dont know if you reside in the UK but there was a big shake up in financial services just a few years ago. Financial advisors could no longer obtain commission from investment products & instead had to agree a fee with their clients for the initial work undertaken. In addition they could then agree a fee with their client for "ongoing advice & servicing". This, I feel, is where your "complaint" is within my industry. Once an investment has been set up you no longer have to have any dealings with the advisor. You do not have to take the "ongoing" fee option & simply manage it yourself. All the profit  (and loss) is then yours. No need to stress whether the shyster advisor is fleecing you & getting a cut of your money. It is entirely up to you. You can have your "no yield no fee" option by simply having a "no ongoing fee" option. 

Sorted.

Thanks, But I I don’t agree that the issue is “sorted “ . Far from it . I was aware of what you have mentioned and in fact that was one matter that prompted my original observation about “ no yield no fee “ type arrangements. . What you have mentioned is a step in the right direction to that concept and could be the “ thin end of the wedge “ leading to outright “ no yield. no fee “ .It is clearly not of itself no yield no fee “ as you still get paid for the initial advice and could get paid for ongoing advice with the agreement of the client . There is nothing conditional about your entitlement to payment based on performance of the investment.What I was suggesting was no payment at all for anything whether initial or ongoing advice UNLESS. the investment yields ( however that is contractually defined ) . That way the client agrees to pay you nothing if there is no yield and say a mark up of a significant percentage on your usual charge if there is satisfactory yield ( as contractually defined ) . You then have skin in the game and an upside to your advice . I think I know what the answer would be to that suggestion from many financial advisors , shyster or otherwise , as things stand and that is what disappoints me and that  I would like to see change . I am based in the UK , hence my qualification and being able to advise in this jurisdiction. My wife however has dual US / UK nationality and I can’t tell you how much of an issue that is so far as dealing with HMRC and the IRS is concerned as well as deciding on tax consequences of investment both here and in the US . But that is a whole new matter altogether! 

Covered End said:

No financial adviser can guarantee a positive yield.
If your proposal came to fruition it would probably end financial advice being given altogether.

I cannot guarantee a positive outcome to litigation taken on a no win no fee basis although I can evaluate a case as having good prospects so I might be prepared to act that way .I therefore disagree and don’t see why it would be the end to financial advice . That hasn’t been the case in the legal profession since no win no fee despite similar concerns . What it has led to is some great fees being won when the right cases are picked and fought to judgment . There could be a great upside to financial advisors who pick the right investment that yields and they then get paid a mark up on their usual fees . It’s the future I’m telling you !! It needs a recession and or a man / woman of vision to bring it in . Sadly I don’t encounter too many financial advisors who fit into that category . I usually see the Tribal Trader idiot or Guaranteed Bonus Goon who has cocked things up in what I do . 

Rob7Lee turning to the stock market, do you think we are now entering a bear market?

LargeAddick said:

How did people do on the Bonds this month?

£25 for me...

LargeAddick said:

How did people do on the Bonds this month?

£25 x 2.

cafc-west said:

PragueAddick said:

cafc-west said:

LargeAddick said:

How did people do on the Bonds this month?

£25 for me...

And for me. I'm scraping along at barely 1% return. My sister got £200 and her holding is only a quarter of mine. Grr.

Better than me!  I’m at about 0.4% calendar year.  But more fun than dreadful savings account...

Haven’t worked out our percentage return this year but it ain’t great but with savings rates so low there is always the chance of a big win and that does make things a bit more exciting ...

Well, if you all must "invest" in Premium Bonds instead of other ways of making above inflation returns for little or no risk then that's your lookout. 

Weighing up if now is the time to take some profits and sit on cash or something safe in my ISA's.

Nobody can predict an extended bear market as for example the US/China trade war could suddenly sorted out, but would rather get out near to the top than wait and then have to sit it out.

PragueAddick said:

golfaddick said:

Well, if you all must "invest" in Premium Bonds instead of other ways of making above inflation returns for little or no risk then that's your lookout. 

I think the frustration for me is that NS&I themselves imply an average return of 1.4% and that this is more likely achieved by those with the biggest allowed holdings. If you are at that level for more than a year and only get about 1.0% you are justified in raising an eyebrow.

And as you've just implied Golfie, now is perhaps not the time for modest CL pensioners to stick 50k in equity markets, is it? At least, not in one go, so your cash has to sit somewhere.

@cafc-west and others, you could consider Marcus (which is Goldman Sachs, unfortunately). Paying 1.5% no strings. Won't beat inflation but better than 0.4%

The average return isn't 1.4%, that's the prize pool. The fact some people make a minimum of 2,000% means others make substantially less? Over the last few years i've made around the 1.4%, this Mrs Rob7Lee is slightly over that so far this year.

The markets are jittery at the moment, as Golfie mentions the 10 year bond rate is indicating a recession. I moved about 35% of mine into bonds about a month ago (Royal London Golfie!), they are up between 3.5 and 5% in that time. The rest i'm leaving invested for now. Don't need the money (most is in pension) so can sit it out.

EDIT; just checked the PB's. Mrs has max £50k and in 8 months has had £550 so if that continues for the remaining 4 months is 1.65%. Mines 0.9% on a smaller holding.

golfaddick said:

Well, if you all must "invest" in Premium Bonds instead of other ways of making above inflation returns for little or no risk then that's your lookout. 

I now buy Premium Bonds instead of lottery tickets. The rationale being that I am taking a gamble with a remote chance of a big prize with both of them. However I can at least get the stake back with Premium Bonds if I wish unlike with the lottery.

I would never view Premium Bonds as 'an investment' they are a gamble in my book with a returnable stake.

PragueAddick said:

golfaddick said:

Well, if you all must "invest" in Premium Bonds instead of other ways of making above inflation returns for little or no risk then that's your lookout. 

I think the frustration for me is that NS&I themselves imply an average return of 1.4% and that this is more likely achieved by those with the biggest allowed holdings. If you are at that level for more than a year and only get about 1.0% you are justified in raising an eyebrow.

And as you've just implied Golfie, now is perhaps not the time for modest CL pensioners to stick 50k in equity markets, is it? At least, not in one go, so your cash has to sit somewhere.

@cafc-west and others, you could consider Marcus (which is Goldman Sachs, unfortunately). Paying 1.5% no strings. Won't beat inflation but better than 0.4%

Yes - I have a Marcus account, amongst other savings accounts, fixed rate accounts, equity, ISAs and Bonds.  So quite diversified but still enjoy the 'thrill' (I'm easily pleased) of clicking on the app 2 days after the first of the month to see if/what I've won!