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Man/Manliness/Manhood?
sillav nitram
Posts: 10,164
Men and Women I s’pose.
I’ve always struggled with the idea of what it means to be a Man, Manliness and Manhood?
In fact I’ve never felt like a Man (insert joke here), not from a sexual orientation perspective, I know without doubt I’m heterosexual but simply from the chest beating machismo perspective.
My knuckles, last time I looked, don’t drag along the floor and I don’t grunt, well, not that often!
I watched Perry’s series on masculinity, ‘All Man’ and enjoyed the myth busting, which I hope this book will continue to do.
Plus, the link below is also an interesting discussion.
For a very long time we’ve been comfortable with full female nudity on the cinema screen and pretty much everywhere else but as yet very rarely full frontal male nudity.
The only film that springs to mind where there was an equal share of male and female full frontal nudity was in the movie, The AntiChrist, with Willem Dafoe and Charlotte Gainsbourg, I cant recall seeing any others, though of course there may have been?
Perhaps it’s not surprising either because for the most part the film industry is made up mostly by white men and perhaps their insecurities?
So what do we mean by Man, Manliness and Manhood’
So what do we mean by Man, Manliness and Manhood’
I certainly haven’t got a clue, do you?
Prepares self for the usual inane comments and much macho rough and tumble commando jacket bravado!
Prepares self for the usual inane comments and much macho rough and tumble commando jacket bravado!
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Comments
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That was a very good series, and want to read that book at some point. Certainly an interesting debate about "manliness" but certainly nothing new, came up a lot during English literature at school with works by Shakespeare, Hardy etc. You had the "new man" movement in the 90s, the "incel" movement at the moment.
I wouldn't worry too much about it if I were you, I've reached the age now where I'm sure happy to be who I am, and if it bothers other people, I'll let them be bothered. I'll just make sure I bring up my kids to know what values are and how to treat people decently (still subjective I grant you)3 -
... And you posted this on a football forum? 😏
Seriously it's an interesting subject. Thankfully, every generation seems to get further from the 'toxic male' culture that used to pervade. As society evolves, it's interesting to see attitudes shift
Ive tried my whole life not to emulate my father (who was, and continues to be, an unreconstructed ponce) but - aside from not collecting children and being a rampant piss artist like he did/was - I've failed (couldn't save my marriage, ruin decent relationships through stubbornness/selfishness)
I guess everyone is a product of your upbringing and environment to a greater or lesser degree12 -
Man up9
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I just hope people are free to be who they are rather than pretending to be something they are not. A lot of masculinity is just a front - some of the most macho figures are terrified behind the shield.
A lot of men miss out on doing stuff because they're restricted by peer pressure.
Being a Charlton fan is a true test of manhood - it takes bravery.3 -
Thanks for being the first and only 3 posts in @AFKABartram 😹AFKABartram said:Man up0 -
Me too and for the most part failed as well.Leroy Ambrose said:... And you posted this on a football forum? 😏
Seriously it's an interesting subject. Thankfully, every generation seems to get further from the 'toxic male' culture that used to pervade. As society evolves, it's interesting to see attitudes shift
Ive tried my whole life not to emulate my father (who was, and continues to be, an unreconstructed ponce) but - aside from not collecting children and being a rampant piss artist like he did/was - I've failed (couldn't save my marriage, ruin decent relationships through stubbornness/selfishness)
I guess everyone is a product of your upbringing and environment to a greater or lesser degree0 -
My dad was terrible - I just set out not to be like him. A negative role model can in a bizarre way teach you a lot.Leroy Ambrose said:... And you posted this on a football forum? 😏
Seriously it's an interesting subject. Thankfully, every generation seems to get further from the 'toxic male' culture that used to pervade. As society evolves, it's interesting to see attitudes shift
Ive tried my whole life not to emulate my father (who was, and continues to be, an unreconstructed ponce) but - aside from not collecting children and being a rampant piss artist like he did/was - I've failed (couldn't save my marriage, ruin decent relationships through stubbornness/selfishness)
I guess everyone is a product of your upbringing and environment to a greater or lesser degree3 -
When I played Sunday League, very often somebody would say 'it's a man's game'.
Pele called it the 'Beautiful Game'.
Was Pele a wuss?
As for masculinity well Gok Wan is as much or as little a man as Tyson Fury I would imagine.
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When you play football, you have to accept you will get hurt. To varying degrees in virtually every game. But women do that too so technically it can be a tough game but isn't a man's game. I did tell my son at a young age this and it was fine if he didn't want to do it, but if he enjoyed it he had to accept this. But I never called it a man's game.1
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Being different in most cultures and not hiding it takes real bravery. I always admired the gay rights campaigner Peter Tatchell who has endured some horrendous abuse over the years. Showed far more strength than those who bullied him.seth plum said:When I played Sunday League, very often somebody would say 'it's a man's game'.
Pele called it the 'Beautiful Game'.
Was Pele a wuss?
As for masculinity well Gok Wan is as much or as little a man as Tyson Fury I would imagine.
His treatment at the 1983 Bermondsey by-election when he stood for Labour was a shameful footnote in British politics
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Yes, he put himself in harms way and I think suffered permanent brain damage after a beating by Mugabe's thugs.2
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Has endured some terrible things over the years and the British tabloid press treated him appallingly. Haven't always agreed with his politics but he certainly has integrity.MuttleyCAFC said:Yes, he put himself in harms way and I think suffered permanent brain damage after a beating by Mugabe's thugs.2 -
me Tarzan .. you Jane0
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I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry !!
What is interesting though, is how women perceive men. I often go on "mumsnet" & the number of threads about abusive, cocklodging and useless men are numerous on a daily basis. A lot of men are perceived to be porn addicted cheating scumbags......and they are the nice ones !!1 -
Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?0
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“cocklodging”?golfaddick said:I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry !!
What is interesting though, is how women perceive men. I often go on "mumsnet" & the number of threads about abusive, cocklodging and useless men are numerous on a daily basis. A lot of men are perceived to be porn addicted cheating scumbags......and they are the nice ones !!0 -
i_b_b_o_r_g said:Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?
Anthrax letter3 -
Good point.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
My dad was terrible - I just set out not to be like him. A negative role model can in a bizarre way teach you a lot.Leroy Ambrose said:... And you posted this on a football forum? 😏0 -
I'll have a go... The kind of bloke who slows down when he's crossing the road, forcing you to wait longer to drive past, because he wants to prove he's 'arder than your fcking cari_b_b_o_r_g said:Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?
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Someone who a Strong Independent Woman spends most her life playing emotional tennis withi_b_b_o_r_g said:Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?2 - Sponsored links:
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20 pints of Guinness and a curry.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?0 -
Who would you have preferred Bear (what a ridiculous parody) Grylls?golfaddick said:I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry !!
I think Grayson is in a perfect position to observe the ridiculousness of Maleness
and Male stereotypical culture without getting wrapped up in it.
Having said that, in the book he alludes to often being a Macho Male himself in his earlier years.0 -
We often hear about "real men" and what "a real man" would do/wear/say or how they would act.
I've never been sure what makes anyone a "real" man beyond an X and Y chromosomes and even there some think that is not the measure.
It's not easy to reject all the programming and stereotyping for the many roles we are meant to play as men (and women) through life and I certainly haven't.
Sometimes it is easier to adapt your behaviour to "fit in" and I think we all do that to a lesser or greater extent. We speak differently down the pub than at home or at work as example.
For some, there is a need to act in a certain way, dress a certain way, express themselves a certain way or take pride in doing or not doing certain things because otherwise they are not living up (or down) to the image they have or what makes them a man and that scares them.
As Shakespeare said
"All the world’s a stage,And all the men and women merely players;They have their exits and their entrances;And one man in his time plays many parts"And it must follow, as the night the day,
There is no real part, no real man, no one way to be a man or woman so be yourself and to quote the bard again
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
Thou canst not then be false to any man"8 -
i_b_b_o_r_g said:Can anyone define a "Toxic Male"?
The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and to men themselves. Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" with regard to bullying and aggression.
Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance abuse. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.
Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement such as Shepherd Bliss to contrast stereotypical notions of masculinity with a "real" or "deep" masculinity that they say men have lost touch with in modern society. Critics of the term argue that its meaning incorrectly implies gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits.[1]
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And since I'm quoting poetry and others are talking about poor role models
This Be The Verse
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.They may not mean to, but they do.They fill you with the faults they hadAnd add some extra, just for you.But they were fucked up in their turnBy fools in old-style hats and coats,Who half the time were soppy-sternAnd half at one another’s throats.Man hands on misery to man.It deepens like a coastal shelf.Get out as early as you can,And don’t have any kids yourself.
I think my dad, and mum, were great role models and loving, fantastic parents but I am a product not just of their genes but the way they brought me up and the values they instilled in me. I don't think they "fucked me up" at all, far from it (others may disagree but hey, I'm old enough now that that matters even less than it did when I was young.)4 -
I was surprised by how good his documentaries were and how he got people from all backgrounds to open up. It certainly wasn't what I was expecting.sillav nitram said:
Who would you have preferred Bear (what a ridiculous parody) Grylls?golfaddick said:I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry !!
I think Grayson is in a perfect position to observe the ridiculousness of Maleness
and Male stereotypical culture without getting wrapped up in it.
Having said that, in the book he alludes to often being a Macho Male himself in his earlier years.2 -
If I may refer to something sweaty and organic and chromosome related, the late George Melly referred to the diminution of male sexual libido as like getting off a runaway horse!
I have heard women comment that they feel sorry for men in this regard because it must be so continually exhausting...the desire and obsession.
Nature and nurture and all that, but if being 'broody' is a legitimate mainly female feeling, then being 'horney' might well be a legitimate male feeling.
Both sexes have to come to terms with those drives in order to establish a coherent community.1 -
Well said and so poetic @HenryIrvine that must make you a sissy and not a real man, surely? 😹Henry Irving said:We often hear about "real men" and what "a real man" would do/wear/say or how they would act.
I've never been sure what makes anyone a "real" man beyond an X and Y chromosomes and even there some think that is not the measure.
It's not easy to reject all the programming and stereotyping for the many roles we are meant to play as men (and women) through life and I certainly haven't.
Sometimes it is easier to adapt your behaviour to "fit in" and I think we all do that to a lesser or greater extent. We speak differently down the pub than at home or at work as example.
For some, there is a need to act in a certain way, dress a certain way, express themselves a certain way or take pride in doing or not doing certain things because otherwise they are not living up (or down) to the image they have or what makes them a man and that scares them.
As Shakespeare said
"All the world’s a stage,And all the men and women merely players;They have their exits and their entrances;And one man in his time plays many parts"And it must follow, as the night the day,
There is no real part, no real man, no one way to be a man or woman so be yourself and to quote the bard again
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
Thou canst not then be false to any man"0 -
"Man up"
"Alright fella"
"I'm gana knock you out mate"
Plus many more.
We all know it's fake. As human beings, we are rather objective about this kind of stuff. We see it for what it is. Even though "man points" are actually technically quite important to us.
It will increase internal confidence, self respect and hope, going forward.
The ladies seek out the confidence of a potential love partner. We all know that. They are natural body language experts. It's within their DNA to prioritise this need for when looking for a potential partner.
The broader animal kingdom probably have it in more of a stand out open way.
The primate with a giant nose...is the alpha male boss that will continuously "get laid". A vague indirect example but it has some truth.
So many stories about women describing one of their ex's to be unbearably narcissistic. Being narcissistic is obviously commonly more of a male issue. It's the self obsessed and insecure...which becomes power obsessed and ends up displaying actual confidence on the surface. It's the short term faker to generate attraction for a potential unfortunate lady.
I'm currently "chatting up a bird" (such a cringeworthy sentence/description but it's true)
She has informed me about something in regards to a problematic ex she has. I guess I might potentially be the one who can possibly balance the books a bit. Narrow down that net force. I will not be any kind of danger.
Where as, if she was used to everyone and everything being so nice all the time, she would probably be searching for a nutter who's tattooed up. A nobhead. Vague criminal record. Over confident.
Masculinity and testosterone are things that are probably not too challenging to boost.
If you have the time, you could just lift some weights and do some basic excersise. Just do what you can. Eat healthy food.
When us males get depressed. Some of us may not really have the courage to openly admit it.
Some might just simply attempt to bully someone else even though they are actually adults.
It's another way of describing someone that is a bit of an irresponsible wanker.
I personally think I have feminine traits. Yeh, it's a bit embarrassing. I can accept it now and I'm happy enough with it.
I have been boarderline diagnosed as "an empath" which is technically the direct opposite of being narcissistic.
It does have its problems. You just get mugged off a lot. You get taken the piss out of and you get taken advantage of.
It is not good and it is a personality disorder. I'm on the wake up pathway now though.
We all just kind of want to be "normal" don't we.
Then we can just be ourselves. Follow our hobbies and interests.
As soon as anyone feels content or secure. Then the masculinity vibe is seriously something that has limited importance. It doesn't really actually mean anything.
It is a load of bullshit...but only gets to us if we get told that we don't have enough of it.
Then common sense may just fly off with the wind.6 -
I would echo those very wise comments.Henry Irving said:And since I'm quoting poetry and others are talking about poor role modelsThis Be The Verse
They fuck you up, your mum and dad.They may not mean to, but they do.They fill you with the faults they hadAnd add some extra, just for you.But they were fucked up in their turnBy fools in old-style hats and coats,Who half the time were soppy-sternAnd half at one another’s throats.Man hands on misery to man.It deepens like a coastal shelf.Get out as early as you can,And don’t have any kids yourself.
I think my dad, and mum, were great role models and loving, fantastic parents but I am a product not just of their genes but the way they brought me up and the values they instilled in me. I don't think they "fucked me up" at all, far from it (others may disagree but hey, I'm old enough now that that matters even less than it did when I was young.)
I lost my dad when I was seven and my role models were mainly women, especially my darling mum. She taught me to value all people and to respect differences - to use words to diffuse situations, not aggression (I may make an exception with Elliotttt and Farnell). I was perhaps a 'new man' long before the term became popular but it's really all about emotional intelligence.
Our sons have been brought up having those values and behaviours demonstrated to them, not rammed down their throats - and they are equally emotionally intelligent.
As you sow, so shall you reap.
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