bobmunro said:

Henry Irving said:

And since I'm quoting poetry and others are talking about poor role models

This Be The Verse

BY PHILIP LARKIN

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.   

    They may not mean to, but they do.   

They fill you with the faults they had

    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

    By fools in old-style hats and coats,   

Who half the time were soppy-stern

    And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

    It deepens like a coastal shelf.

Get out as early as you can,

    And don’t have any kids yourself.


I think my dad, and mum, were great role models and loving, fantastic parents but I am a product not just of their genes but the way they brought me up and the values they instilled in me.  I don't think they "fucked me up" at all, far from it (others may disagree but hey, I'm old enough now that that matters even less than it did when I was young.)

I would echo those very wise comments.

I lost my dad when I was seven and my role models were mainly women, especially my darling mum. She taught me to value all people and to respect differences - to use words to diffuse situations, not aggression (I may make an exception with Elliotttt and Farnell). I was perhaps a 'new man' long before the term became popular but it's really all about emotional intelligence.

Our sons have been brought up having those values and behaviours demonstrated to them, not rammed down their throats - and they are equally emotionally intelligent.

As you sow, so shall you reap. 

My Grandad always used to say 'As you sow, so shall you reap' - made more and more sense as I got older.

sillav nitram said:

I think it’s also interesting that no one has commented on the link to the Gaurdian adticle, ‘Me and my Penis’ another Male phallicy that a big cock makes you a better lover and a symbol of  ‘Manliness/Manhod?’

I read the article but can't say it's anything I've really worried about. I think you get more relaxed as you get older.

A lot more pressure on young men now.

It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.

And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.

Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.

You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.

I think it reflects badly on @sillav nitram that the thread title excludes Mannequin, Manhole and Mangina. I’m going to start a petition...

sillav nitram said:

Off_it said:

It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.

And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.

Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.

You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.

I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.

Hopefully those of a later generation don't.

I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.

One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin.  I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.

Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.

Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s&feature=emb_logo



Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.

se9addick said:

golfaddick said:

I think the last person I'd take advice on about "manliness" is Grayson Perry  !!

What is interesting though, is how women perceive men. I often go on "mumsnet" & the number of threads about abusive, cocklodging and useless men are numerous on a daily basis. A lot of men are perceived to be porn addicted cheating scumbags......and they are the nice ones !! 

“cocklodging”?

A bloke who moves in with a girlfriend or partner & expects them to do everything around the house. Treats the place like a hotel (or like living back with their mum) & doesn't pay their way. 

golfaddick said:

I'm currently "chatting up a bird" (such a cringeworthy sentence/description but it's true)

The fact you had to use this terminology just goes to prove the point........or you are still in the 1970's.

I said it on purpose in order to mock the typical things we hear which are associated with the cringey side of apparent masculinity. That intention was obviously not clear.

I always find it strange when I hear a woman being referred to as "a bird".

A bird has wings. It's an animal.

It's just a beyond lazy disrespectful incorrect abnormal description. 

The ladies might not really care about it, themselves, one way or the other. I don't know. Maybe they actually kind of warm to it in a way. 
Probably seen as a cheeky chappy. "A right lad". Kind of nonsense.

When it's actually just a stupid prick copying his mates.

What a life

bobmunro said:

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

sillav nitram said:

Off_it said:

It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.

And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.

Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.

You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.

I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.

Hopefully those of a later generation don't.

I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.

One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin.  I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.

Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.

Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s&feature=emb_logo



Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.

I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree.

We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.   

But racism is prejudice and subsequent discrimination against people because of perceived differences.  If we educate future generations that skin colour is no different to eye colour or hair colour then would that not remove the space for racism because the perception is changed.



Giving the example of football as a microcosm of society it  sounds horrific in the 70s when black players were singled out for abuse because they were identified as black players.  Then it seemed to subside and people stopped referring to the colour of player's skin ....certainly from what i witnessed as a regular at charlton throughout the 90s and 2000s and that players were just players.  Skin colour was never an issue and I don't recall it being mentioned.  

In more recent years there has been a shift to more focus on players' and managers' skin colours in the mainstream media....albeit for well intentioned reasons i.e. to draw attention to lack of proportional representation at manager and owner level for example ...but it has had the unintentional effect of turning e.g. Chris Powell Charlton manager into Chris Powell Charlton manager "and black manager" and therefore emphasising something that really shouldn't matter in this day and age.


I am articulating this very clumsily but what I am trying to get at is there may be an alternative way to progress, that addresses existing and prevailing inequalities and discrimination in society without emphasising skin colour , sex or sexuality as a defining element of a person's character.  I.e. changing the perception and making it no more of a defining feature of someone's personality than the colour of our eyes.

It seems to unintentionally and unnecessarily create division and promulgate differences rather than similarities as us all merely being people.

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

bobmunro said:

RodneyCharltonTrotta said:

sillav nitram said:

Off_it said:

It seems to me that the traditional concept of "being a man" is seen as old fashioned in certain circles these days, almost something to be laughed at and derided.

And "white men" also gets mentioned a lot too, like in the opening post. For what purpose colour is brought into things I dont know, but it's easy to see why some people get annoyed by it.

Personally I was brought up to look beyond someones race, sex, religion, etc, so talking about "men", "women", "black men", "white men", "gay women", etc in general terms as if they are all one, all the same, just isnt right.

You've only got to look at the recent threads about the multiple voices of different Charlton fans representatives to know that.

I agree to a certain extent but as a male growing up in the 50' and 60's in a working class environment, from a council estate and a predominately white male one, I think in my entire school there where only two black boys, I do carry with me a lot of the crap associated with that generation.

Hopefully those of a later generation don't.

I wonder if constantly talking about differences and making them out to be more than just mere differences is going to be detrimental of that.

One of my children asked me once when they were very young why someone had dark skin.  I said that you have brown hair and your brother has blonde hair and it's the same with skin. Same as if they asked if men can marry men just a simple yes.

Obviously racism in society and sexism and homophobia has meant it's not as simple as that as it does intertwine so much with every day life but it feels presently there seems to be so much focus in mainstream media and culture at the moment on our differences as people and putting everyone in boxes such as white, black, gay, male etc when I wonder if we stopped focusing on all of that constantly (whilst addressing inequalities and continuing to make life and society fairer and more equal in the background) whether the younger generation would just see each other as people.

Seems to be more division of our differences nowadays than when I was growing up in the 90s and whilst most of it is well meaning I wonder if it is actually counterproductive and if you just keep it a simple as Morgan Freeman says whether it may be better in everyone just seeing and treating each other as people and stop talking about it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeixtYS-P3s&feature=emb_logo



Maybe I am being too simplistic and being a white straight bloke i'll probably be told i am.

I understand where you are coming from but I'm not sure I agree.

We are not all the same and to pretend we are is wrong. I believe you need to recognise those differences to be able to understand them and to appreciate the effect discimination has on individuals. A very good friend of mine is Asian and has lived in this country from childhood. He's in his late 50s now and a very successful businessman, but has endured racism in all its forms throughout his life. He once said to me 'you are the most colour blind person I know' to which I replied that I am not colour blind. I recognise, acknowledge and empathise (if that is possible) with his experiences. I couldn't do that and be colour blind.   

But racism is prejudice and subsequent discrimination against people because of perceived differences.  If we educate future generations that skin colour is no different to eye colour or hair colour then would that not remove the space for racism because the perception is changed.



Giving the example of football as a microcosm of society it  sounds horrific in the 70s when black players were singled out for abuse because they were identified as black players.  Then it seemed to subside and people stopped referring to the colour of player's skin ....certainly from what i witnessed as a regular at charlton throughout the 90s and 2000s and that players were just players.  Skin colour was never an issue and I don't recall it being mentioned.  

In more recent years there has been a shift to more focus on players' and managers' skin colours in the mainstream media....albeit for well intentioned reasons i.e. to draw attention to lack of proportional representation at manager and owner level for example ...but it has had the unintentional effect of turning e.g. Chris Powell Charlton manager into Chris Powell Charlton manager "and black manager" and therefore emphasising something that really shouldn't matter in this day and age.


I am articulating this very clumsily but what I am trying to get at is there may be an alternative way to progress, that addresses existing and prevailing inequalities and discrimination in society without emphasising skin colour , sex or sexuality as a defining element of a person's character.  I.e. changing the perception and making it no more of a defining feature of someone's personality than the colour of our eyes.

It seems to unintentionally and unnecessarily create division and promulgate differences rather than similarities as us all merely being people.

I don't think there is a society on earth where differences don't cause a problem - it will always be a difficult balancing act and the best you can do is to try and teach some sort of tolerance. Britain has numerous cultures living alongside each other and the conflict could be a lot worse.

It would be a lot easier if we all looked the same and thought the same way.

The 70s and 80s was a truly horrific time for racial abuse in football and it's certainly no longer ignored.

I knew this thread wasn't going to go well ......

SoundAsa£ said:

hoof_it_up_to_benty said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

Yes, he put himself in harms way and I think suffered permanent brain damage after a beating by Mugabe's thugs.

Has endured some terrible things over the years and the British tabloid press treated him appallingly. Haven't always agreed with his politics but he certainly has integrity.

Would help if he smiled once in a while........I can honestly say I have never seen as much as a grin, let alone a smile.

I thought his sexuality might have been the issue with the way he was treated by the British press but obviously it was simply down to him not smiling enough.

sillav nitram said:

EastStand said:

It started off so well, I was actually enjoying the discourse for once. 

It did didn't it, sadly, there's always some 'Male' who has to spoil it

Oh dear, you really have no idea, do you?