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Harsh on Williams today
Comments
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I like lee bowyer because he doesn’t acknowledge the importance of ego. In fact he is brilliant because he does not acknowledge the ego of the players because playing as part of a team is the antithesis of respecting each persons ego. bowyer is a team player and a team manager so any one person is not more important than the team. He will do whatever is required for the team. This thing about disrespecting one individual is completely irrelevant. A respect for the team is far more important and if someone works against the team work ethic of tackling ,defending, chasing, going for the ball and everything else that is involved in the game then it has to be pointed out and even if it means taking a player off then so be it. People on here are forgetting it is about the team and not the individual. Football is not a game of individuals.13
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Bowyer's comments yesterday do not seem to have bothered Maatsen that much considering he 'liked' this Instagram post.Davo55 said:Another thing about Bow’s tendency to “shoot from the lip” is that it could make it a lot more difficult to attract and keep young loanees from higher status clubs. The likes of Famewo and Maarten won’t want to be around an unhappy dressing room and their clubs won’t want that either. Watch them get pulled back in January if Bows doesn’t sort it.
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I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo1 -
I thought this decision was awful,humiliating for the player and does Bowyer no favours with his man management.Also once again a defender was brought on leaving us light in midfield with no one able to hold the ball to take the pressure off.bowyer should have left him on and then bollocked him in private.I am finding it a bit worrying that some players are no where near as good as they were a few games ago.Gunter giving away penalties,Aneke nowhere near the threat he was,Washington cant get anywhere near a goal,Williams was flying against Pompey and for Wales,Ben Amos has papered over the cracks these last few games with some great keeping.8
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Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo2 -
This is exactly why he’s under pressure.Valley11 said:
The point about Taylor is a really good one.cafctom said:Not everyone is going to like this but I think Bowyer can be bit of a bully with players who he knows are not going to have it in them to bite back at him. Players like Williams and Morgan probably aren’t the most vocal.Yet it’s interesting how he hasn’t called out the more senior lads who can probably give it back a bit more if it were they who were called out publicly (Pratley, Gunter etc).Christ sake, Lyle Taylor literally downed fucking tools on us in the middle of a relegation fight and Bowyer didn’t once come out and shame him for doing it, which he bloody well should have. But then again he knows a player like Taylor would eat him up in a war of words.
It’s weird if it’s pressure making him react like this.This is arguably his least pressurised time as manager. Settled behind the scenes, no transfer embargo he’s unable to talk about.It feels to me like there’s something else going on but no idea what that is or if I’m reading too much into the last week.
Any excuse he had previously isn’t there anymore.6 -
But could we bring in a more effective player? Someone fitter and not so injury prone?Cafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo3 -
Just because he joined after the salary cap doesn't mean he is on a low wage.ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo2 -
Seems alright2 -
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.4 - Sponsored links:
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Nah both before my time, in '84 I was too busy shitting, eating and cryingPragueAddick said:
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.
Although no different to 2020 really10 -
Who else was on with him?alan dugdale said:I don’t think Bowyer’s been the same since his stint as a Skysports pundit !
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I havent watched any games, just followed on here. So am relatively out of touch.
For me it may be something to do with Maddison, and his reputation for disruption.
Or Ged Roddy, Sandeguard's man put in to oversee things- what is his remit?
Is it the fans- what was said? (I have missed that entirely).
It could just be Lee can't keep up with the whole situation. If he's as insensitive to mental issues as some suggest he'll always struggle to manage players. This is his first management job. As impressive as he is in terms of maturity, especially compared to what some expected given his past, he will have limitations to work on.
Also I'd be asking Jackson some questions. He must have insight as the number 2. And where is Jason Euell in this and Gallen. I think it is 'drains up' time. Clear the air, and make key changes and before results get worse.3 -
Based on what we've seen this season, I'd be perfectly OK with that.Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
With TS now to back us, I trust Steve G to contribute a net + from his departure.
People seem to forget how hastily this squad was added to and the brilliant run we were on pre-break. We always knew (TS has said this) that it wasn't a completed squad and expected to take stock at the Jan window and make necessary alterations. If we can get to the window in top 6, we should be very happy with that IMO.
Inniss and Doughty are obviously major misses but I think Shinnie's departure at half time last Wed was hugely disruptive for the midfield. There's a creative midfielder who also tackles and tracks his man. Can't wait to see him back.5 -
I always felt Moore did well for us. In my view some of his best moments were at Centre Back. In particular he was superb in the Spurs FA Cup ties.PragueAddick said:
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.
Towner also tormented us for Millwall. You are right he was well past his best when we signed him.
A more recent example would be Marcus Maddison. He always stood out when he played for Peterborough. Thinking about it Jonny himself was superb against us at Selhurst Park in our 2-1 defeat in 2012/13.
Let's hope Marcus and Jonny are remembered in the years to come for right reasons.2 -
For me, it always down to one thing ........ a player needs to play in his own specialist position. And played to his strengths.
That's what he's spent his career training to do.
And so in the past we've seen Williams in his preferred '10' role tear defences apart.
He wins free kicks in advanced positions - and if he's not brought down, he'll hit an incisive pass or run through on his own.
Also, he'll press and be a ready outlet to relieve pressure on our own defence.
Marcus Maddison, surely he built his reputation at Peterborough doing much the same type of thing - plus has a shooting ability.
These are players, that on form, will open 'parked bus' defences.
They are a huge asset if used properly and the team set up to accomodate one of them.
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Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;
since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1
nice bloke though!
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That probably was an issue before TS took over. But it is actually an advantage now as Williams is not subject to the cap.Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
And Fraser looked good on Wednesday partly because he had team mates showing for him and supporting him and opponents who allowed that to happen.3 -
Ha ha .... you can always make stats mean what ever you like.Longtimeaddicted said:Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;
since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1
nice bloke though!
But in those stats we see a few things:
1) No mention of the key role who plays the 'assist the assist' ....... numerous times we've created goalscoring chances that just wouldn't have happened without Williams involvement. Hey, we even saw it yesterday at Shrewsbury in the build up to our goal, didn't we? But the stats don't even mention it.
And of course the majority of goalscoring chances are missed; no credit there either for creating the chance.
2) Last season, 5 assists in the first 5 or 6 games.
Why? Williams starting games, playing in his own position ....... alongside the right players: the dynamic Gallagher, and Taylor's off ball movement up front. Moral: For crying out loud, play Williams in his own specialist position and set up around him.
3) Stats never tell the full story.
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Plus, at Wembley, coming on on 60 mins, playing a similar role to Fraser on Wednesday night. Took the game by the scruff of the neck and put the fear of God into everyone associated with Sunderland in that stadium. They knew what he was capable of. Stopping him doing it was a different matter. The only thing they could think of was to foul him. He was a key figure in that outcome.Oggy Red said:
Ha ha .... you can always make stats mean what ever you like.Longtimeaddicted said:Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;
since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1
nice bloke though!
But in those stats we see a few things:
1) No mention of the key role who plays the 'assist the assist' ....... numerous times we've created goalscoring chances that just wouldn't have happened without Williams involvement. Hey, we even saw it yesterday at Shrewsbury in the build up to our goal, didn't we? But the stats don't even mention it.
And of course the majority of goalscoring chances are missed; no credit there either for creating the chance.
2) Last season, 5 assists in the first 5 or 6 games.
Why? Williams starting games, playing in his own position ....... alongside the right players: the dynamic Gallagher, and Taylor's off ball movement up front. Moral: For crying out loud, play Williams in his own specialist position and set up around him.
3) Stats never tell the full story.20 - Sponsored links:
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Not sure but he got somewhat slaughtered for a not exactly verbally fluent performance.swords_alive said:
Who else was on with him?alan dugdale said:I don’t think Bowyer’s been the same since his stint as a Skysports pundit !0 -
Oh sorry mate, take it as a compliment to the maturity beyond your years that you bring to topics like this :-)ForeverAddickted said:
Nah both before my time, in '84 I was too busy shitting, eating and cryingPragueAddick said:
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.
Although no different to 2020 really
Anyway, it was actually 1-5. And Rotherham were little better than mid-table.1 -
That is something that occurred to me as well.swords_alive said:I havent watched any games, just followed on here. So am relatively out of touch.
For me it may be something to do with Maddison, and his reputation for disruption.
Or Ged Roddy, Sandeguard's man put in to oversee things- what is his remit?
Is it the fans- what was said? (I have missed that entirely).
It could just be Lee can't keep up with the whole situation. If he's as insensitive to mental issues as some suggest he'll always struggle to manage players. This is his first management job. As impressive as he is in terms of maturity, especially compared to what some expected given his past, he will have limitations to work on.
Also I'd be asking Jackson some questions. He must have insight as the number 2. And where is Jason Euell in this and Gallen. I think it is 'drains up' time. Clear the air, and make key changes and before results get worse.1 -
You've got to be joking? 🤣swords_alive said:I havent watched any games, just followed on here. So am relatively out of touch.
For me it may be something to do with Maddison, and his reputation for disruption.
How is Maddison to blame for Bowyers behaviour?0 -
What a miserable damp grey day at The Valley, that was. I seem to remember we went 1-0 ahead, Prague, before our total collapse at the back.PragueAddick said:
Oh sorry mate, take it as a compliment to the maturity beyond your years that you bring to topics like this :-)ForeverAddickted said:
Nah both before my time, in '84 I was too busy shitting, eating and cryingPragueAddick said:
But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).ForeverAddickted said:
Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that levelCafc43v3r said:
I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is. If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?Lurker said:As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants.
Highly unlikely imo
Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.
Although no different to 2020 really
Anyway, it was actually 1-5. And Rotherham were little better than mid-table.
Tony Towner seemed to be able to beat his man at will, make for the byline and there was Ronnie Moore on the end of the cross or causing havoc in our box. Classic wing play by Towner that day, so credit where it's due.
Rotherham had made a poor start to that season, I believe - but were on a good run that saw them start to climb into the top half of the table.
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But that honestly doesn't tell you anything.Longtimeaddicted said:Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;
since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1
nice bloke though!
Put Johnny's assist record against Maddison's and you would think one was premier league and one was dog and duck.
Did Williams get a goal or an assist in the play off final? Would we have won it, in normal time, without him? Did he get a goal or assist when he ripped England International Kalvin Phillips a new one at the Valley last season? Would we have won that game with out him?
What about this stat
Age 27 games above league 1 144
Age 27 games above league 1 7
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He has tattoos and ate pizza for dinner a couple of months ago. He’s basically the devil.KentishAddick said:
You've got to be joking? 🤣swords_alive said:I havent watched any games, just followed on here. So am relatively out of touch.
For me it may be something to do with Maddison, and his reputation for disruption.
How is Maddison to blame for Bowyers behaviour?3 -
Be interested to hear Solly speak up now with regards to his departure from the club.I don’t want to go OTT with Bowyer, but I really am starting to go off him. I wouldn’t be bothered if he pissed off to West Brom or wherever.1
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West Brom are in enough trouble as it is without bringing in a decrepit right back!ricky_otto said:Be interested to hear Solly speak up now with regards to his departure from the club.I don’t want to go OTT, but I rally am starting to go off him. I wouldn’t be bothered if he pissed off to West Brom or wherever.13 -
Backs up my point on the post match views thread that you can count his goals and assists since he’s been here on one hand....if you’re from NorfolkLongtimeaddicted said:Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;
since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1
nice bloke though!3
