Harsh on Williams today

cabbles said:

Longtimeaddicted said:

Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;

since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1

nice bloke though!

Backs up my point on the post match views thread that you can count his goals and assists since he’s been here on one hand....if you’re from Norfolk 

He flatters to deceive - I thought he would be a more effective player.

Oggy Red said:

PragueAddick said:

ForeverAddickted said:

PragueAddick said:

ForeverAddickted said:

Cafc43v3r said:

Lurker said:

As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants. 

I have no idea how much JW is on, but I would bet its considerably more than 2.5k a week, or what ever the average is.  If he goes in January could you bring in a better player on 2.5k a week?

Highly unlikely imo 

Dunno, you could argue that Scott Fraser's style was very similar on Wednesday night... Would pick up the ball and run with it, sometimes drawing a free kick but always looking to make a Albie Morgan style pass so had more end product to him - Trouble is he's only just joined MK Dons so doubt he'd move so soon, thankfully joined after the Salary Cap so wont be above it either, the other issue is we only saw one performance where he was on his game, how often is he not at that level

But Fraser was playing further forward than Williams is normally allowed to do with us. He can certainly do everything Fraser was doing, including, when playing for Wales, scoring goals.(I'm no excusing his poor defensive work though, btw).

Fraser looked good Wednesday because for whatever reason we failed to adjust to deal with him. I'm always wary though of getting a thing about players based on one good game they had against us. I think you might be old enough to remember Ronnie Moore and Tony Towner. In 1984 under the useless Ken Craggs we played Rotherham at the Valley. Towner and Moore absolutely tore us up, it was 4-1 but could have been 8. We eventually signed both of them (we all chipped in to buy Moore). He was so-so, but Tony Towner was absolutely feckin' useless.

Nah both before my time, in '84 I was too busy shitting, eating and crying

Although no different to 2020 really

Oh sorry mate, take it as a compliment to the maturity beyond your years that you bring to topics like this :-)

Anyway, it was actually 1-5. And Rotherham were little better than mid-table. 

What a miserable damp grey day at The Valley, that was. I seem to remember we went 1-0 ahead, Prague, before our total collapse at the back.

Tony Towner seemed to be able to beat his man at will, make for the byline and there was Ronnie Moore on the end of the cross or causing havoc in our box. Classic wing play by Towner that day, so credit where it's due.

Rotherham had made a poor start to that season, I believe - but were on a good run that saw them start to climb into the top half of the table.

Oh sure. We all went home feeling wistful for the days of Paddy Powell and Killer (even if Moore was a completely different type of striker). Turned out Towner couldn't do that week in week out. I don't recall he managed it in even one week with us. Probably we made it easy for them that day. It was a performance down there with the 6-1 at home to Leeds in the PL. But then that's the other thing. Wasn't Mark Aizelwood, at left back, the hapless victim of Towner that day? We all went home feeling about him, useless, get rid, etc. Within a year, new manager, new position, he became one of our best players.

What's the point of it all? I guess that, we fans know jack shit, and sometimes we should remind ourselves of that, especially before demanding managers get the boot. (while pretending not to actually be demanding that, on this thread)

Chunes said:

What is it about this recent generation of Charlton players that requires us to make constant excuses for their poor performances. 

Probably because this is the 1st season for about 7 or 8 years that success is both expected and demanded by the fans?  However realistic or not you think that is. 

I am coming around to accepting that this may be a season of consolidation. If we go up / make the okay offs, fantastic, but given where we have been, I am okay with that if we can get the blocks in place ready to steamroll next season. Eg Powell's first half season, Bowyer's first half season 

jams said:

I am coming around to accepting that this may be a season of consolidation. If we go up / make the okay offs, fantastic, but given where we have been, I am okay with that if we can get the blocks in place ready to steamroll next season. Eg Powell's first half season, Bowyer's first half season 

I’ll be disappointed if we don’t at least reach the okay off final, sounds intriguing...

PragueAddick said:

Oggy Red said:

Longtimeaddicted said:

Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;

since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1

nice bloke though!

Ha ha .... you can always make stats mean what ever you like.

But in those stats we see a few things:

1) No mention of the key role who plays the 'assist the assist' ....... numerous times we've created goalscoring chances that just wouldn't have happened without Williams involvement. Hey, we even saw it yesterday at Shrewsbury in the build up to our goal, didn't we? But the stats don't even mention it.

And of course the majority of goalscoring chances are missed; no credit there either for creating the chance.

2) Last season, 5 assists in the first 5 or 6 games.
Why? Williams starting games, playing in his own position ....... alongside the right players: the dynamic Gallagher, and Taylor's off ball movement up front. Moral: For crying out loud, play Williams in his own specialist position and set up around him.

3) Stats never tell the full story. 

Plus, at Wembley, coming on on 60 mins, playing a similar role to Fraser on Wednesday night. Took the game by the scruff of the neck and put the fear of God into everyone associated with Sunderland in that stadium. They knew what he was capable of. Stopping him doing it was a different matter. The only thing they could think of was to foul him. He was a key figure in that outcome.

I agree with you both, stats do not tell all, however, considering the amount of game time, that has to be a poor return.

End product has never been a strong point, gaining fouls is his strongest suit.

Likely irrelevant now, right or wrong Bowyer has him toasted for sure, as I said nice bloke, gone in the New Year.

This squad is good enough for the playoffs with the right manager.

Longtimeaddicted said:

PragueAddick said:

Oggy Red said:

Longtimeaddicted said:

Jonnie Williams CAFC Stats from a google seach;

since 2018 played 56 Assist 5, Goals 1

nice bloke though!

Ha ha .... you can always make stats mean what ever you like.

But in those stats we see a few things:

1) No mention of the key role who plays the 'assist the assist' ....... numerous times we've created goalscoring chances that just wouldn't have happened without Williams involvement. Hey, we even saw it yesterday at Shrewsbury in the build up to our goal, didn't we? But the stats don't even mention it.

And of course the majority of goalscoring chances are missed; no credit there either for creating the chance.

2) Last season, 5 assists in the first 5 or 6 games.
Why? Williams starting games, playing in his own position ....... alongside the right players: the dynamic Gallagher, and Taylor's off ball movement up front. Moral: For crying out loud, play Williams in his own specialist position and set up around him.

3) Stats never tell the full story. 

Plus, at Wembley, coming on on 60 mins, playing a similar role to Fraser on Wednesday night. Took the game by the scruff of the neck and put the fear of God into everyone associated with Sunderland in that stadium. They knew what he was capable of. Stopping him doing it was a different matter. The only thing they could think of was to foul him. He was a key figure in that outcome.

I agree with you both, stats do not tell all, however, considering the amount of game time, that has to be a poor return.

End product has never been a strong point, gaining fouls is his strongest suit.

Likely irrelevant now, right or wrong Bowyer has him toasted for sure, as I said nice bloke, gone in the New Year.

Think you may be right 

Off_it said:

If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.

Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.

To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?

If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off. 

The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.

You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week. 

cafcfan1990 said:

Off_it said:

If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.

Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.

To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?

If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off. 

The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.

You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week. 

If making a change is for the benefit of the team then I wouldn't care if he felt humiliated or not. If he shirks one challenge then who's to say he isn't going to shirk more?

One players feelings don't trump the team collective.

Off_it said:

cafcfan1990 said:

Off_it said:

If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.

Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.

To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?

If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off. 

The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.

You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week. 

If making a change is for the benefit of the team then I wouldn't care if he felt humiliated or not. If he shirks one challenge then who's to say he isn't going to shirk more?

One players feelings don't trump the team collective.

I'm more concerned about the dressing room to be honest. Not necessarily that one player feels a little upset, more so that the players start to lose respect for Bowyer. When that happens there will be no coming back. 

mendonca said:

I don't like one thing you did on the pitch so am going to sub you. All feels a bit School football team to me. It's Bows job to shout and ensure it does not happen again.

Well, knowing Bowyer like we do I think it's fair to say that he DID shout at him, don't you?

Bottom line seems to be that Bowyer doesn't see Williams as someone he can rely on. Particularly when the chips are down. Ultimately that's his call and he lives or dies by his decisions - not if anyone else feels offended on Williams behalf.

Off_it said:

Charltonparklane said:

Off_it said:

cafcfan1990 said:

Off_it said:

If you pull out of a tackle in a Sunday League game that's not acceptable in my book, particularly when most of your teammates are working their nuts off for the cause. Pulling out of a tackle as a professional is inexcusable. I'm not talking about 50/50 bone crushers - I'm talking about standard tackles that he shirks.

Fact is that Williams has not been at it all season, and he wasn't exactly great last season either. Yes he wins free kicks, but he flatters to deceive most of the time.

To say "tackling isn't his game" is complete horseshit. But let's go with that and say it isn't. So just what IS his game - scoring goals? No. Getting assists? No. What then? The best that's been offered here is winning free kicks that lead to goals. Really? Who's been scoring these free kicks then?

If I'm playing right back and he bottles a tackle in front of me then I'm livid and would be screaming at the manager to get him off. 

The team is more important than one blokes feelings. Was it harsh? Probably. Did he deserve it? Probably.

You honestly feel he deserved to be publicly humiliated? I cannot actually remember the challenge, but let's assume it happened, I have no issues with Bowyer slamming him behind closed doors. But to do like he did was plain wrong, just as it was when he said a load of crap in the week. 

If making a change is for the benefit of the team then I wouldn't care if he felt humiliated or not. If he shirks one challenge then who's to say he isn't going to shirk more?

One players feelings don't trump the team collective.

We were shit, shit shit, don't call out JW or AM, it's your tactics for 12months why we are in this mess 

What "mess"? 

Genuinely not having a pop, but we have been a shit show for years now and finally when we manage to cobble a squad together in two weeks people have suddenly turned on the manager after a few bad results. 

It's fair to say performances haven't been spectacular - even when we were on the winning run - but seriously, the last few years have surely taught is that we are in no way in a "mess" right now. 

Come on fellas, get some perspective. If this type of things carries on then by all means go mental. But people throwing their toys out the pram now is surely the type of self-entitled behaviour we laugh at the likes of Spurs and Arsenal fans displaying. 

Maybe I'm just more patient than the average fan. Maybe Russell Slade had more of an impact on me than I thought.

Good structured return @off_it

The mess I'd say we are in mate is probably since Hull away (and before that Derby Home) we've been shit.

Yes, 100% injuries played a part in a  dreadful run to lockdown and I support that young inexperienced side with judases around the squad completely.

We come back from lockdown and get a couple of good results but we were dire, absolute dire and a team of players (that IMO  were good enough to stay up and would have under experienced manager)

Brum got one point in their last 7 games to keep them up (or something like that).

We don't attack sides, we are better player for player but don't know what to do if we can't make the opposition play the way we want them to play. 

Anyone can check through my posts in my supptot for Bow's and the team the past 2/3 years but I've lost faith, honestly I'd listen to Bows talk all day, watch any programme he's on but what we are churning up right now is dreadful IMO.

There is no leadership, even though we should have 3 on that pitch.

Pratley was a better player without experienced pros around him last season so what's the difference this season?

That's not my job that's Bows to work out and for the last 10 games we have looked anything but a promotion side. 

Lurker said:

As Williams chose to trigger the contract extension after relegation, would he be using a large chunk of our wage budget? Looks to me like Bowyer didn’t want him to stay, Williams chose to stay and now Bowyer wouldn’t mind getting rid in January to free up wages for a player he wants. 

Yes, someone that is capable of playing a whole game would be an improvement, especially if they are not too scared to tackle as well.