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Post Match Thread: Hull City v Charlton | Sat 02 Jan 2021
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I respect anyone for their views, maybe armchair is a bit harsh to some extent as I full well know there are those with their coaching badges on here and who have done their time on the sidelines themselvessoapboxsam said:I respect Muttley and his views.
He isn't an armchair fan ( he is now !) Because anyone who has stood on the touchline and made decisions about subs, football tactics and why has a player still not turned up a minute from KO deserves respect. Plan A binned and Plan B used as you Kick off !
I don't think he had the same issues I had with some parents (I had a younger group to work with) and losing players to academy sides. but he knows how it works at the grass roots of football.
Not sure if it was coincidence, that both of us said let's try, as Aneke is missing, Washington, with support from Maddison and Williams and Bogle goes back to his best position; on the bench.
Even 3-5-2 was an option with Maatsen on the left and Matthews on the right, within 10 minutes of the 2nd half we were playing on the front foot with exactly these changes. Only the Pratley Red card screwed up that pro active tactic.
Since the Mini League, when we had limited options TBF, Bowyer has made so many negative choices.
I'm not calling for Lee to go, as I want to see if a couple of players, a striker and a bona fide CB and a possible loan to replace the home sick Levitt can galvanize our season.
You guys have watched enough football to know when dross is being served up.
Even when Chris Powell got knighted I would call him out when he sat back against a team like Birmingham when we had 1 goal leads, home and away one season and the game at st Andrews cost us a point and the game at the valley cost us 3.
I said let's support who ever Lee picked yesterday. I tried but sorry that 1st half line up was a disaster waiting to happen.
I would welcome @Tutt-Tutt views if has time to watch any of the cafc games on valley pass as he is involved with the pro game or at least the semi pro game from memory.
I know the players need to believe in you when you are the manager; Man management isn't easy with all the different characters involved. Is this where Lee is struggling ?
The Senior game though is a different beast though, its not as simple as picking your best team and going out to try and win the game
Bowyer doesnt just do a bit of training during the week, choose his team from that and then sends his team out blind (Although on recent performances you could question) - He has to sit down and constantly watch back boring vidoes of Hull and now Accrington playing, he'll not only have to find weaknesses in the tactics of the whole team to try and exploit but he'll have to work out what individuals keep repeating so he can pass it on to his players and warn them what to expect.
Its why its not as simple for me as saying pick Williams and Maddison telling them to do their own thing
If I was the opposition having constantly watched Williams Id tell my players to get tight to him (like that brief moment before Pratley got sent off) but would give them strict instructions not to foul him as he becomes ineffective - Equally I cant fathom why Maddison didnt play yesterday (can only presume the sending off ruined that plan)... The only other reason is the fact that Karl Robinson always used to get the better of us with Oxford because he knew a good number of players, knew their weaknesses without much research so already knew how to counter that - Grant McCann would have been no different with Maddison yesterday2 -
you do the previews, i'll do the opinions, lets leave it at that although i'd happily put out what i think should be the starting line up at the top of any preview and happily tell you how wrong your line ups are (in my opinion - of course) - bowyer, amongst other things, is getting bogged down in info about the opposition if you ask me - i'm not saying ignore them and yes, wilks is a threat but i wish he'd start focusing more on how to win a game, rather than how to not lose one.ForeverAddickted said:
Because I dont presume to tell Bowyer what he's doing wrong, or tell him what he should be doing?DOUCHER said:
i think you've lost the plot as well tbh but there again, no surprise there given you are pretty much aligned with bowyer on your weekly previews - how come we are armchair fans and you aren't btw?ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
People take it as optimism but as I've said in previous weeks now... Its great saying he should have done this and that but you dont know how the opposition will react do you? - As for being aligned with Bowyer on my Previews there have been one or two "Introductions" that have called for patience but I think the difference between me and you writing one is the fact that I try to take a very neutral stance and attempt to detach myself as a fan when writing them - If you want to take over from me though and give it a go you're more than welcome though?
Anyone is more than welcome to take over the role of writing Previews from me if ever they want1 -
No they weren't, but as I have said before the seeds were planted over a year ago. 2019 we often played well even when we didn't win. In 2020 we seldom played well even when we did win.ForeverAddickted said:
Sheffield Wednesday and Huddersfield werent in the run in though were they?Cafc43v3r said:
Sheffield Wednesday away, Huddersfield home and away are just 3 examples I can think of off the top of my head last season when negative tactics and/or bonkers team selections got us zero points.ForeverAddickted said:
The only game we stood zero chance of getting anything was the Leeds game!!... Every other game we were as much of a match for anyone else!!DOUCHER said:
i accept all the problems he had but i stand by my statement - there were games in that run in where we had zero chance of getting anything from the game because of his negative tactics and you may think i'm an idiot, that;s fine, your opinion is irrelevant - could he also have handled the Taylor / Solly thing differently? All these things were overlooked because of the circumstances but we have a repeat of the negative tactics and a repeat of the confrontation and a pattern is developing with the same outcomesForeverAddickted said:
This is just ridiculous... Year long obsession!!DOUCHER said:i'm surprised at your stance AFKA - this isn't a knee jerk thing on most people's part - this is a year long obsession with negative tactics that people are sick of - you may not want you're forum being partly responsible for the mounting pressure on bowyer but this tidal wave of opionion has been building for a year and without any inside info as to what the hell is behind LB's decisions, he appears to have lost the plot completely - and the dressing room.
We were a Championship team under an embargo and came within a point of survival, the fact we were only in the relegation zone for TWO WEEKS that entire season was credit to the Management team - We had an ownership of chancers who chipped away in the background and made the whole club a toxic enviornment that must have made it hell for the players to try and focus in, but they're robots arent they... To idiots like you they probably should be able to focus on their job and not worry about what goes on in the background wondering if their careers are on the line
Or are you going to re-write history and ignore the fact that the Birmingham goal alone came from a kid now at Borussia Dortmund going up against an ageing midfielder whose hamstring had just gone?
As I've said before... Some of our fanbase on here deserve everything that happens to our promotion chances if they go tits up with a new Manager... Of course you'll never accept being at fault will you!!
And we have the cheek to mock Arsenal fans for being entitled
Cardiff: Fair enough we were perhaps lucky to get a draw as dont recall us having many opportunities
Millwall: Lost to an individual error with Phillips palming to ball to the opponent
Brentford: Could have been 3-0 up before they got a dodgy penalty
Reading: Should have had a penalty, should have had a goal that was wrongly offside
Birmingham: Should have been 2-0 up, Camp did his job of a Goalkeeper and stopped Bonne
Wigan: Should have won 3-2, Marshall did his job as a Goalkeeper and stopped Bonne
But yeah we had zero chance of getting anything from those games... As I said... Keep re-writing History to suit your needs!!
The only thing I'll agree with you on is he could have handled Solly differently as I know that was a load of bullshit what Bowyer has come out with... Taylor on the other hand was fully deserved as he never had any intention of playing
If we are talking last season the blind loyalty to McGeady, the public slagging off of Bonne, the playing Oshilaja at left back (even if you think it was a tactical genius move against Hull he still played there after).
Get it wrong once or twice, fair enough. Keep doing the samething, that doesn't work, over and over again and blaming everyone but yourself?
Thats why I only commented on those games in the restart
In 2019 we probably had 12 or 13 players who had the best spell of their career, up to that point. In 2020 I honestly can't think of a player who has consistently been good compared to their own par.1 -
Curbs isn't a relevant comparison, that run of bad results was in the Premier League TWO DIVISIONS higher than we are now, where we were the smallest side in the division and clear favourites to go down. During that run of 8 defeats we lost to the likes of Arsenal, Leeds and Villa.AFKABartram said:Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins
4 draws
3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
In recent weeks we've failed to beat Shrewsbury, Swindon and Plymouth, been outplayed by MK Dons and lost to the whipping boys in the division Burton. All while playing turgid football, other than one half versus Wimbledon. I'm not suggesting Bowyer should be sacked BUT it's hardly unreasonable to start pondering whether we need a change,25 -
If you have managed at some capacity or not it doesn't matter to me. I know if I was appointed Charlton manager, I would be a disaster. But we do sell ourselves a bit short as fans sometimes. If you watch games for a long time, I have been doing so before Bowyer was born, you do pick up on certain things. You can easily gain an insight as when something is wrong and something is right.
For instance, I know the best approach when we played Sheffield Wednesday, a team at the time that was bereft of any confidence, was to have a go at them. I know that yesterday was a perfect game for a player like Maddison, coming off the back of a MOTM performance with something to prove against his old club. I know that if you sit back on a lead when opponents go for broke, you will lose more points than you gain. I don't have to be a football manager to know that, I just have to have had enough experience of watching the game.19 -
This and what is do puzzling. When bowyer took over he was all bullish and would often say we play our game and let them worry about us. It was so refreshing and un Charlton like but it created a feel good factor through the whole club and a togetherness.thenewbie said:Calling out fans for wanting a different approach that may or may not work is just ridiculous. I don't care what research Bowyer did that lead him to play players out of position when it is very clearly NOT WORKING, and has not been for a while.
Bowyer's main issue right now seems to be an obsession with nullifying or countering the other team, when we have the quality to be the team they should be reacting to. The only tactics seem to be stopping other teams playing - at the cost of not playing ourselves. More to the point, we're failing to even do that properly.
I don't want Bowyer gone. I do believe he CAN turn it round. But I think a lot of our problems our in his head and the whole team is suffering for it.It’s like he is damaged by the last 12 months.It might just be bowyer feels deep down this team is not good enough to do that and it’s annoying him and spilling over with silly changes and comments. He deserves time to get some players in and I am prepared to give him that time and support because I desperately want that bowyer back.11 -
If you read what I actually wrote I said fans aren't wanting LB sacked because we LOST but because of the WAY we lost. ie, by playing players out of position that needn't be even playing there because of suitable alternatives within the squad.ElfsborgAddick said:
Fans are suggesting a change of manager.golfaddick said:
Great post.....and posters like @AFKABartram should take note. No one is suggesting Bowyer should be sacked because we've lost a few matches but because the manner in which we've set up the team in those matches.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
The form is the main concern though. 10 points from 9 games. Leaking goals. Failed to beat Burton, Gillingham, Plymouth, Swindon, MK Dons and Shrewsbury. Why is he persisting with Pratley at CB, why is he playing Matthews at left back when we have a left back on the bench? Why is he playing a left back on the right of midfield? Why are our 2 most creative players sat on the bench? Why do players who do well get dropped for the next game?stoneroses19 said:
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.golfaddick said:
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.Cardinal Sin said:
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.Danny Addick said:For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
And yes we're 6th but Ipswich, Sunderland and Accrington can all go above us as they have games in hand.
If you can't see that playing an exciting attacking left full back on the right wing & replacing him with a right footed right back (neither of them having played in those positions before in their careers) is not only baffling but something no other manager would do then you need to open your eyes.
I think some people are just being obtuse now for the sake of it.4 -
So, as I said, there's not actually any proper evidence that Bowyer has lost the dressing room. While I completely believe what J Block reported, as I recall it was one player saying that they never discuss tactics and possibly used the phrase that he's 'lost the plot'. We don't know who that player was. Could have been Jonny Williams, could have been Darren Pratley, could have been James Vennings. One player speaking out of turn does not necessarily indicate a lost dressing room, and who the player was is significant because their position in the team will give their words a different weight. If you heard that Cory Gibbs said Curbishley had lost the plot, or Leon Clarke had said it about Powell you wouldn't exactly care would you? Similarly, if Deji said Bowyer had lost the plot then I wouldn't worry too much either. There will always be some players who are happy to see the manager go because they're not getting a game and think that they'd have a better chance with another manager. I don't expect any posters to clarify sources because as you say that shouldn't be shared, but my point was that you're just overtly claiming that Bowyer has lost the dressing room because it fits your narrative of wanting him out. Until we actually hear for sure that Bowyer has lost the support of the players we don't know, but you keep claiming it in your many, many posts as fact, and that's wrong.MuttleyCAFC said:The reason I want Bowyer gone is that I believe the squad is better than its recent results. I do accept 100% that we have suffered with key injuries but you adapt tactically around that. Or at least you try to.
I don't expect anybody to remember my position but up until the resumption from lockdown, I believed Bowyer was a great manager headed for the top. I supported him through the poor run we had last season because it was clear it was caused by a small squad and injuries. A couple of games stood out for me as managerial ineptness and they were Sheff Wednesday and Birmingham away and I believe these games cost us. But I also could see that it cost us what Bowyer had won us.
I have been holding off calling for him to go until now, but the repeated craziness of his ultra negative approach has just taken its toll. We are still well enough placed to get promoted and that creates a dilemma if you believe Bowyer is not going to maximise the possibility of promotion.
As for the claim that I don't know that Bowyer has lost the dressing room, or at least parts of it, I will say two things. Firstly, J Block, who is a trusted poster, has told us this from a playing source. It is absolutely right we don't know who that source is. Secondly, digging people out and not taking any blame yourself is a guaranteed way of doing this and that is what we have seen. You don't have to be a football genius to see Bowyer has been going about things the wrong way.
I don't see many defending his tactics. Just a few hoping he will change. I myself was hoping he would do so, but it is clear he won't. Had he picked a side that maximised the possibilities and failed, then it is the squad. Within parameters, as there will always be differences in team selection. But generally, when you see the team it raises eyebrows and it has become more and more bizarre. When a manager drops the previous man of the match it is bizarre. Bowyer has done this twice in recent games.
For me, it is a question whether we risk writing off the season or not. Now Sandgaard is a breath of fresh air and ultimately the club will go forwards under his ownership. But he must be wondering what is going on and if he suspects Bowyer may be holding back the chance of an early promotion he will surely act. If as I feel is very likely, Bowyer has lost parts of the dressing room, then he has to as this never gets fixed when it happens.
I am not for losing JJ, Gallen or anybody else. I think our recruitment is not an issue. Bowyer is responsible for these tactics, not anybody else.
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Unless this Bowyer is his twin and an imposter, the Bowyer that was positive and led his players rather than criticised them and was what you have described, must still be in there somewhere. But I ask people, surely you can see he is a totally different person today.roseandcrown said:
This and what is do puzzling. When bowyer took over he was all bullish and would often say we play our game and let them worry about us. It was so refreshing and un Charlton like but it created a feel good factor through the whole club and a togetherness.thenewbie said:Calling out fans for wanting a different approach that may or may not work is just ridiculous. I don't care what research Bowyer did that lead him to play players out of position when it is very clearly NOT WORKING, and has not been for a while.
Bowyer's main issue right now seems to be an obsession with nullifying or countering the other team, when we have the quality to be the team they should be reacting to. The only tactics seem to be stopping other teams playing - at the cost of not playing ourselves. More to the point, we're failing to even do that properly.
I don't want Bowyer gone. I do believe he CAN turn it round. But I think a lot of our problems our in his head and the whole team is suffering for it.It’s like he is damaged by the last 12 months.It might just be bowyer feels deep down this team is not good enough to do that and it’s annoying him and spilling over with silly changes and comments. He deserves time to get some players in and I am prepared to give him that time and support because I desperately want that bowyer back.
Gone is the person that was saying we would make the play offs when even we didn't believe it. Instead whatever you ask him, he turns it into a negative. Five subs, be f*ing positive about it! No, he voted against it and found a way how it wouldn't help us. When logically it should help teams with a bench like we had yesterday.
It is absolutely my preference we get the old Bowyer back. But how long do we wait for it to happen? It might never happen.0 -
Why do you keep spouting the same old stuff. At the moment Bowyers formations & tactics aren't working. Its same old same old. 99% of posters can see this but you seem to have either blind faith that suddenly things will change or have some strange mentality that if everybody agrees then you must disagree.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
Instead of us setting up to nullify Wilks why not set us up so they have to change the way they play. Successful teams & successful managers play to their strengths, not their weaknesses.
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He said he was a 1st team player who played in one of the games, maybe Swindon or Shrewsbury?Garrymanilow said:
So, as I said, there's not actually any proper evidence that Bowyer has lost the dressing room. While I completely believe what J Block reported, as I recall it was one player saying that they never discuss tactics and possibly used the phrase that he's 'lost the plot'. We don't know who that player was. Could have been Jonny Williams, could have been Darren Pratley, could have been James Vennings. One player speaking out of turn does not necessarily indicate a lost dressing room, and who the player was is significant because their position in the team will give their words a different weight. If you heard that Cory Gibbs said Curbishley had lost the plot, or Leon Clarke had said it about Powell you wouldn't exactly care would you? Similarly, if Deji said Bowyer had lost the plot then I wouldn't worry too much either. There will always be some players who are happy to see the manager go because they're not getting a game and think that they'd have a better chance with another manager. I don't expect any posters to clarify sources because as you say that shouldn't be shared, but my point was that you're just overtly claiming that Bowyer has lost the dressing room because it fits your narrative of wanting him out. Until we actually hear for sure that Bowyer has lost the support of the players we don't know, but you keep claiming it in your many, many posts as fact, and that's wrong.MuttleyCAFC said:The reason I want Bowyer gone is that I believe the squad is better than its recent results. I do accept 100% that we have suffered with key injuries but you adapt tactically around that. Or at least you try to.
I don't expect anybody to remember my position but up until the resumption from lockdown, I believed Bowyer was a great manager headed for the top. I supported him through the poor run we had last season because it was clear it was caused by a small squad and injuries. A couple of games stood out for me as managerial ineptness and they were Sheff Wednesday and Birmingham away and I believe these games cost us. But I also could see that it cost us what Bowyer had won us.
I have been holding off calling for him to go until now, but the repeated craziness of his ultra negative approach has just taken its toll. We are still well enough placed to get promoted and that creates a dilemma if you believe Bowyer is not going to maximise the possibility of promotion.
As for the claim that I don't know that Bowyer has lost the dressing room, or at least parts of it, I will say two things. Firstly, J Block, who is a trusted poster, has told us this from a playing source. It is absolutely right we don't know who that source is. Secondly, digging people out and not taking any blame yourself is a guaranteed way of doing this and that is what we have seen. You don't have to be a football genius to see Bowyer has been going about things the wrong way.
I don't see many defending his tactics. Just a few hoping he will change. I myself was hoping he would do so, but it is clear he won't. Had he picked a side that maximised the possibilities and failed, then it is the squad. Within parameters, as there will always be differences in team selection. But generally, when you see the team it raises eyebrows and it has become more and more bizarre. When a manager drops the previous man of the match it is bizarre. Bowyer has done this twice in recent games.
For me, it is a question whether we risk writing off the season or not. Now Sandgaard is a breath of fresh air and ultimately the club will go forwards under his ownership. But he must be wondering what is going on and if he suspects Bowyer may be holding back the chance of an early promotion he will surely act. If as I feel is very likely, Bowyer has lost parts of the dressing room, then he has to as this never gets fixed when it happens.
I am not for losing JJ, Gallen or anybody else. I think our recruitment is not an issue. Bowyer is responsible for these tactics, not anybody else.0 -
Great post. No more needs to be said.Cafc43v3r said:
I don't think anyone is saying he should be sacked because 6th is unacceptable.stoneroses19 said:
Well the form people are moaning about this season currently has us in 6th place (aware that some teams around us have games in hand now).Cafc43v3r said:
How long has this form lasted? When was the last time we played well for 90, or even 60 minutes.stoneroses19 said:
In my opinion, fans are stupid if they want bowyer to leave when we’re in 6th place in a league where he has got us promoted before.golfaddick said:
One thing I say about other clubs fans.....they watch the games, they know the players & their best positions. They know when the manager gets it wrong or gets it right. Fans aren't fickle. They just KNOW. How many on here watch the streams of other clubs. I bet very very few. So when other fans ring up 606 or Talksport going on about their managers tactics and why x,y or z should be sacked I don't laugh at them or say they are stupid or "be careful what you wish for" because those fans go to games (pre Covid) or pay for live streams and they know what the manager should be doing. Fans aren't stupid.Cardinal Sin said:
I think Danny makes a few good points here. I was raging about today's line-up and performance and Bowyer's persevering with tactics and players that aren't working. However, as fans we would be laughing at other clubs' fans looking to ditch their until now successful manager after a bumpy spell and be calling them bedwetters. The last thing we want is to start sacking managers prematurely, especially ones who have over-performed already in the job.Danny Addick said:For what it’s worth, my opinion is that Bows is doing alright with a brand new squad that includes crap strikers. He’s still in credit but needs to improve once he gets Schwartz in. I’m a bit surprised at the playing players out of position too but as he’s said in the post match interview, he has a reason (at least!)
Unless Eddie Howe fancies another project starting in the lower leagues, which I highly doubt, I’d leave Bows, Jacko and Gallen to do their thing.
We all know we have been terribly unlucky to lose Inniss and Famewo for so long and we were short up front from the off and with a salary cap.
Having said all that, we must have someone better than Bogle. He joined us with a chronically poor track record which he's battled hard to maintain. I won't pay to watch another stream if he's playing.I don’t believe having patience in bowyer is going to end up with us finishing mid table. Still have faith he’ll turn this form around.
We weren't playing well when we were winning. Everyone accepted that, it's a scratch team, they haven't had time to jell, they haven't had time on the training ground etc etc.
Well the more time they have on the training ground they have the worse they get. The more puzzling the team selections are.
If its a blip, who is your player of 2020? Tricky isn't it. You could probably have a short list of 5 or 6 for 2019.
I’m very happy with 6th place on 3rd January.Yes, my expectations for this season considering the mess we were in with owners, fake owners, embargo, missing wage cap, huge injuries are obviously lower than some people on here. I will continue to believe that bowyer shouldn’t be sacked for being in 6th place at this time.
We are getting worse week by week, the team selection is getting more and more unfathomable the tactics are becoming more and more negative.
We haven't played well for months, not weeks. Not one single player is playing at their own peek, let alone above it.
A lot of this has been happening for a long time but it was forgivable when we were in the championship because quite frankly the players weren't good enough.
No fake owners, Roland budgets or injury crisis makes you play a right back at left back when you have a left back on the bench and one playing right midfield. Or a midfielder at center half when there are FOUR other fit professional center halves at the club.
None of the reasons/excuses cover Maddison nor Williams playing, players being publicly lambasted or in form players being randomly dropped.
Some of this has been Bowyer's MO since he got the job, some of it starting creeping in last winter. The signs have been there for a long time but it was, like I said, forgivable, excusable or just not that important compared to the survival of the club.
I don't think he can or will change, that's why, regrettably, it's time for him to go.2 -
I don't want Bowyer sacked, I want him to turn things around. Yesterday was the first time I felt maybe he's not going to change his ways despite the trend that is emerging. Many of us knew we'd struggle as soon as the team was announced.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
For me he's over complicating things defensively. We shouldn't need to play a right back at left back to deal with the opposition threat, especially at this level. Maatsen is a very good left back for this league and Purrington is a solid one. Is he considering what it does to our attacking play? He talks about moving the ball quickly, which I agree with - yet having 3 of 4 wide players cutting inside is exactly the sort of set up that encourages you to slow down the play.
Maatsen is talented going forward, though that is as an attacking full back, not a winger cutting inside - if he played on the right wing all season he wouldn't score many by cutting inside in the way Doughty or Maddison likely would.
Rather than analyse future opponents, I'd rather think about how we got promoted in the past. Without going in to the detail we know we had a settled team, a way of playing and a favoured formation.
I know the schedule is more packed than usual due to Covid, but that hasn't stopped Watson, Pratley and Gunter playing almost every game.
We also had attacking threats in those teams - it was clear yesterday the aim was to keep the game at 0-0 and hope to nick a goal and grind out a 1-0. That's fine if you're strong defensively, but we're not at the moment, we've now conceded 2 goals in each of the last 4 games.
I've felt for a few games now that we're putting our back four/five under even more pressure by having such defensive line ups. Going more defensive doesn't always make you more solid, instead it gives the opposition more of the ball and encourages them to press higher.
Bowyer seems so concerned with defending that he refuses to start two of Morgan, Maddison and Williams together. We're a better team when more of them are on the pitch. Looking at the last few games:
Ipswich - Morgan and Williams started. Won.
MK Dons - Morgan and Maddison played together for 15 minutes. Williams replaced Morgan. Lost
Shrewsbury - very poor, brought Morgan and Williams on, we scored, took Williams off. Drew.
Wimbledon - came back with Williams and Maddison on the pitch. Won.
Swindon - winning with Maddison on the pitch. Went defensive rather than putting Williams on to give us an attacking outlet. Drew.
Plymouth - Williams started. Equalised soon after bringing Maddison and Morgan on and taking Williams off. Draw.
Hull - Morgan started but as a left midfielder. Williams replaced him. Maddison not involved at all. Lost.
What seems clear to me is Bowyer trusts Watson, Pratley, Gunter, Shinnie and Doughty, but has an issue with Maddison, Williams and Morgan, whether it's consistency, end product, work rate, lack of getting stuck in or whatever else. I hope new signings fit in to the former group, but if they don't we I suspect we'll just see some of the latter group missing out on the match day squad completely and more defensive line ups.
I feel he'd be better off accepting the weaknesses of that second group and start at least two of them for the positives they'll bring. Morgan particularly needs game time in order to develop further and show he can be consistent. Maddison has an excellent record in terms of end product at this level.
In the past Bowyer hasn't had alternatives when key players have been injured. In Morgan and Maddison/Williams he has the players to replace Shinnie and Doughty, even if they aren't quite as good or as consistent (also accepting we can't replace Doughty's pace and threat).
I'm in no doubt we'll come out of this window with a stronger squad, while Pratley and Watson being out I really hope forces him to look at things a bit differently.
22 -
I’d be shocked if JJ agreed with Bowyers team selection yesterday and general tactics.AFKABartram said:Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins
4 draws
3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.This season i’ve lost a lot of love for Bowyer, nearly every game in recent memory he does something to piss me off such as...
Continuously playing players out of position.
Criticising players in public he has a agenda with such as Williams and Morgan. Williams he even subbed off for that infamous 50/50 tackle.Bizarre and negative tactics when we’re leading teams, typically in the bottom half. We regularly ship late goals as a result of this.
Maddison motm v Plymouth - gets Zero minutes next game. Williams motm v Afc Wimbledon - bench next game.Playing Pratley/Watson together while leaving Deji on the bench.
I’m not totally in the Bowyer out camp yet, i think he’s just about got enough credit to have a few more games. My issue is he’s making the same mistakes over and over again, and doesn’t appear to be learning from them.Its insane and yesterday was just dreadful, didn’t seem any team unity etc - not too surprising when your manager is losing the plot.11 -
well said - articulated it perfectlyScoham said:
I don't want Bowyer sacked, I want him to turn things around. Yesterday was the first time I felt maybe he's not going to change his ways despite the trend that is emerging. Many of us knew we'd struggle as soon as the team was announced.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
For me he's over complicating things defensively. We shouldn't need to play a right back at left back to deal with the opposition threat, especially at this level. Maatsen is a very good left back for this league and Purrington is a solid one. Is he considering what it does to our attacking play? He talks about moving the ball quickly, which I agree with - yet having 3 of 4 wide players cutting inside is exactly the sort of set up that encourages you to slow down the play.
Maatsen is talented going forward, though that is as an attacking full back, not a winger cutting inside - if he played on the right wing all season he wouldn't score many by cutting inside in the way Doughty or Maddison likely would.
Rather than analyse future opponents, I'd rather think about how we got promoted in the past. Without going in to the detail we know we had a settled team, a way of playing and a favoured formation.
I know the schedule is more packed than usual due to Covid, but that hasn't stopped Watson, Pratley and Gunter playing almost every game.
We also had attacking threats in those teams - it was clear yesterday the aim was to keep the game at 0-0 and hope to nick a goal and grind out a 1-0. That's fine if you're strong defensively, but we're not at the moment, we've now conceded 2 goals in each of the last 4 games.
I've felt for a few games now that we're putting our back four/five under even more pressure by having such defensive line ups. Going more defensive doesn't always make you more solid, instead it gives the opposition more of the ball and encourages them to press higher.
Bowyer seems so concerned with defending that he refuses to start two of Morgan, Maddison and Williams together. We're a better team when more of them are on the pitch. Looking at the last few games:
Ipswich - Morgan and Williams started. Won.
MK Dons - Morgan and Maddison played together for 15 minutes. Williams replaced Morgan. Lost
Shrewsbury - very poor, brought Morgan and Williams on, we scored, took Williams off. Drew.
Wimbledon - came back with Williams and Maddison on the pitch. Won.
Swindon - winning with Maddison on the pitch. Went defensive rather than putting Williams on to give us an attacking outlet. Drew.
Plymouth - Williams started. Equalised soon after bringing Maddison and Morgan on and taking Williams off. Draw.
Hull - Morgan started but as a left midfielder. Williams replaced him. Maddison not involved at all. Lost.
What seems clear to me is Bowyer trusts Watson, Pratley, Gunter, Shinnie and Doughty, but has an issue with Maddison, Williams and Morgan, whether it's consistency, end product, work rate, lack of getting stuck in or whatever else. I hope new signings fit in to the former group, but if they don't we I suspect we'll just see some of the latter group missing out on the match day squad completely and more defensive line ups.
I feel he'd be better off accepting the weaknesses of that second group and start at least two of them for the positives they'll bring. Morgan particularly needs game time in order to develop further and show he can be consistent. Maddison has an excellent record in terms of end product at this level.
In the past Bowyer hasn't had alternatives when key players have been injured. In Morgan and Maddison/Williams he has the players to replace Shinnie and Doughty, even if they aren't quite as good or as consistent (also accepting we can't replace Doughty's pace and threat).
I'm in no doubt we'll come out of this window with a stronger squad, while Pratley and Watson being out I really hope forces him to look at things a bit differently.2 -
I certainly want him to turn it around, but something seems to have changed.AFKABartram said:
Im not saying it is, I’m talking about wanting him sacked, not criticising. I’ve loads of criticisms.Chris_from_Sidcup said:
I don't think it's a lack of loyalty to question the manager after the shambles of recent weeks.AFKABartram said:Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins
4 draws
3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
I’m not saying he is, i don’t think a single person has said he is. I’m talking about sacking him.Chris_from_Sidcup said:AFKABartram said:Absolutely staggered how willingly trigger happy people are. Embarrassing given how fawning most supporters were of him up to a few weeks ago. Football has got so short-termism it’s unreal.
Thank god the Internet wasn’t such a thing for Curbs when he went 8 games without a point, 13 games without a win. Pretty sure we would be told now he hasn’t a clue, had lost the dressing room etc.
Our current form in that comparative 13 game period?
6 wins
4 draws
3 defeats
During a unique national crisis, and accompanying injury crisis.
Embarrassing lack of loyalty to Bowyer and Jackson. They deserve better support than that and I’m gutted it appears we’re collectively not tuned that way. I thought we were.
I'm confident that at least 99% of Charlton fans will always love Bowyer, but he's not beyond criticism.
He's looked more under pressure in the past 5 or 6 weeks than any other period under his time with us. Which is amazing when you consider the shit he's been dealt for the past three years.
But maybe he thrives on the previous situations? There was no real expectation.
And as there are no fans in the ground I can only think that pressure is coming from above?2 -
We are playing in league 1. It is not a tactical minefield! Pick the best formation for the best players you have, stick with it and impose yourself on teams with lesser players eg second half Wimbledon. It is as simple as that.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!25 -
First 4 games 4 points with a pre Sandgaard minimal squad
that mob let in 5 goals in 4 games
scored only 3 goals
Inniss , Famewo and Gunter (and a few others arrive) and 18 points from 6 games
we had a lot of new players who you wouldn’t expect to gel immediately, gelling immediately and getting an incredible return from them 6 games
scored 11 and let in 2 in those 6 games
the injuries occur and then 10 points from 9 games
15 goals conceded in 9 games
scoring 15 as well
big misses Famewo , Inniss and Doughty but to counter that slightly surely the other players being coached and trained together should improve .
As cafc4ever states it’s hasn’t happened , as a team/ squad we’ve regressed more than you’d expect .
We are lucky they hit the ground running when they didn’t know each other .
You’d like to think the more players get familiar with each other the more they’d improve as a playing unit but consistency of selection , if possible , would be the key to that .
2 -
I don’t get this at all, its a post match forum designed to debate tactics/formations etc. Should we ever criticise the managers team? Its clear as day he should have played players in their proper position and start one of Maddison/Williams (preferably Maddison after last week).ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!5 -
This every day of the week & twice on a Sunday.kentred2 said:
We are playing in league 1. It is not a tactical minefield! Pick the best formation for the best players you have, stick with it and impose yourself on teams with lesser players eg second half Wimbledon. It is as simple as that.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
We aren't playing Brazil of the early 70's or Barcelona from 2015. We are playing 3rd tier football against teams that have average players. You don't need sublime tactics & formations. Just get your best players on the pitch & give them the ball. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.
Football is about scoring more goals than your opponent. You you don't have a defence you need a better attack. You wont win League 1 by trying to win 1-0 every week, you win it by scoring 2 or more goals every week. In the lower leagues every team can score goals......you just have to score more goals than they do.
17 - Sponsored links:
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Also how many times has Bowyer pulled a tactical master stoke and played someone out of position and its worked?kentred2 said:
We are playing in league 1. It is not a tactical minefield! Pick the best formation for the best players you have, stick with it and impose yourself on teams with lesser players eg second half Wimbledon. It is as simple as that.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
The only one I can think of was Williams against Leeds when he totally nullified Phillips but that wasn't that radical.1 -
And Hull had 6 enforced changes so it was basically a different team.golfaddick said:
This every day of the week & twice on a Sunday.kentred2 said:ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
We are playing in league 1. It is not a tactical minefield! Pick the best formation for the best players you have, stick with it and impose yourself on teams with lesser players eg second half Wimbledon. It is as simple as that.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
We aren't playing Brazil of the early 70's or Barcelona from 2015. We are playing 3rd tier football against teams that have average players. You don't need sublime tactics & formations. Just get your best players on the pitch & give them the ball. IT IS THAT SIMPLE.1 -
Its a difficult call isn't it?clb74 said:
So we are saying we want Bowyer to go now then?TellyTubby said:
So, how long does Bowyer get? A week after the end of the window? That prevents a new face making his mark on the signings.Ducktapeshoerepairs said:Yesterday was abysmal. However, Bowyer has earned the right to have this January window under Sandgaard. Not many wanted him out before the 2 centre halves got injured. We need some patience here...
To the end of the season? That could blow any chance of promotion based on current form and team set up and selection.
I would love Bowyer to turn it around and perhaps he will. Based on current evidence, I'm afraid that I don't see it though.
Given the ambitions Thomas has voiced, I'd be surprised if he allows Bowyer to continue for much longer if there is no change in approach.
There is certainly an argument for it, only those on the ground can make an informed decision.
IF he has lost the players as some think, then perhaps an early intervention is the best thing. Like I said, I would like Bowyer to turn it around, at the moment he appears reticent to try to, let alone able.1 -
I look at Barnsley now, a team that a year ago looked certainties for relegationroseandcrown said:
This and what is do puzzling. When bowyer took over he was all bullish and would often say we play our game and let them worry about us. It was so refreshing and un Charlton like but it created a feel good factor through the whole club and a togetherness.thenewbie said:Calling out fans for wanting a different approach that may or may not work is just ridiculous. I don't care what research Bowyer did that lead him to play players out of position when it is very clearly NOT WORKING, and has not been for a while.
Bowyer's main issue right now seems to be an obsession with nullifying or countering the other team, when we have the quality to be the team they should be reacting to. The only tactics seem to be stopping other teams playing - at the cost of not playing ourselves. More to the point, we're failing to even do that properly.
I don't want Bowyer gone. I do believe he CAN turn it round. But I think a lot of our problems our in his head and the whole team is suffering for it.It’s like he is damaged by the last 12 months.It might just be bowyer feels deep down this team is not good enough to do that and it’s annoying him and spilling over with silly changes and comments. He deserves time to get some players in and I am prepared to give him that time and support because I desperately want that bowyer back.
Under Ismael they've been really positive, going out to play their game, rather than worrying about the opposition. As a result they've lost against the biggest teams in the division, but beat just about everyone else, leaving them 9th in the division 3 points off the playoffs
Since Ismael took over they've won 10 games, lost 6 and drawn none in a division where their budget will probably be bottom 6.8 -
Hear, hear!MuttleyCAFC said:If you have managed at some capacity or not it doesn't matter to me. I know if I was appointed Charlton manager, I would be a disaster. But we do sell ourselves a bit short as fans sometimes. If you watch games for a long time, I have been doing so before Bowyer was born, you do pick up on certain things. You can easily gain an insight as when something is wrong and something is right.
For instance, I know the best approach when we played Sheffield Wednesday, a team at the time that was bereft of any confidence, was to have a go at them. I know that yesterday was a perfect game for a player like Maddison, coming off the back of a MOTM performance with something to prove against his old club. I know that if you sit back on a lead when opponents go for broke, you will lose more points than you gain. I don't have to be a football manager to know that, I just have to have had enough experience of watching the game.
I've seen charlton play live about 1100 times. Throw in live matches I've watched on the TV and it must be about 1300.
Now I know I would be a disaster as a manager but I think I've watched enough football to have a fair idea of tactics. For example, playing a right footed player at left back, or vice versa, hardly ever works well. It neutralises much attacking threat down that side as a player playing on the wrong side always has to come inside and can't get to the touchline to whip in a dangerous cross. You don't need to be a manager to see that.
Matthews is a good right back. At left back he is like a fish out of water. Playing him there when there are other options is absurd.3 -
To expand your military analogy generals are often accused of refighting the last war, not taking into account machine guns, tanks or any other new developments.ForeverAddickted said:For those bemoaning Bowyers choice of playing players out of position... Going forward can they provide actual analysis ahead of games as to how the opposition play, what their strengths and weaknesses are and then how we should line up?
Play players in position is probably the most armchair comment I can ever read!!
Bowyer has already said that he played Matthews on the left today because whenever Wilks has played this season, thats the flank he's gone down, he did it last season too which is why Oshilaja was played Left-Back and was why I knew that Matthews would play out there, its basic stuff!! - Of course that didnt happen yesterday because Hull themselves arent going to just sit back and let us do what we want (Do these armchair fans realise that the opposition come with their own game plan?), now I know the response straight away will be: "So why didnt Bowyer change it up the moment that was obvious"... But my response is, why should we have to adapt to the opposition, apart from one frustrating deflection they werent better than us yesterday and had it not been for Bogle's air kick we'd have gone in at 1-1, but of course thats Bowyer's fault too isnt it!!
Seriously armchair fans always make me think of the Battle of Austerlitz... The Austrians and Russians put together a plan to beat the French and put that plan into action... The French absolutely annihalated them because not once did the opposition Generals think that Napoleon would do his own thing and stuck to their plan throughout - People on here say; play Williams, play Maddison blah blah blah, but dont think for a second as to what will happen if the opposition suss those two out from the start and make them as effective as a feather!!
Second Half, Bowyer has changed it up and its benefited us a bit more, until one of his players has had the attitute of a five year old getting himself sent off which has pretty much ended the game
Then to make things even more laughable there have been complaints on here asking why Bowyer hasnt been calling out the more senior players, why do the likes of Pratley and Watson get away with mistakes all the time when its Williams that gets called out in the post match press conference - Yesterday; Bowyer calls out Pratley for the stupid red card and is now called out on here for slagging off more players!!
Bowyer is refighting last season.11 -
Give Bowyer till October as NSS said.
Bowyer would of then had 2 transfer windows without any b@llocks involved.
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Not much of a surprise to see the normally ever-dependable Matthews at fault for the 2nd goal - defending a cross from the right which is meat and drink to him normally. Problem is he'd adjusted to defending from the other side of late and these mistakes are only natural to a player.Fortune 82nd Minute said:
Hear, hear!MuttleyCAFC said:If you have managed at some capacity or not it doesn't matter to me. I know if I was appointed Charlton manager, I would be a disaster. But we do sell ourselves a bit short as fans sometimes. If you watch games for a long time, I have been doing so before Bowyer was born, you do pick up on certain things. You can easily gain an insight as when something is wrong and something is right.
For instance, I know the best approach when we played Sheffield Wednesday, a team at the time that was bereft of any confidence, was to have a go at them. I know that yesterday was a perfect game for a player like Maddison, coming off the back of a MOTM performance with something to prove against his old club. I know that if you sit back on a lead when opponents go for broke, you will lose more points than you gain. I don't have to be a football manager to know that, I just have to have had enough experience of watching the game.
I've seen charlton play live about 1100 times. Throw in live matches I've watched on the TV and it must be about 1300.
Now I know I would be a disaster as a manager but I think I've watched enough football to have a fair idea of tactics. For example, playing a right footed player at left back, or vice versa, hardly ever works well. It neutralises much attacking threat down that side as a player playing on the wrong side always has to come inside and can't get to the touchline to whip in a dangerous cross. You don't need to be a manager to see that.
Matthews is a good right back. At left back he is like a fish out of water. Playing him there when there are other options is absurd.
The RB at LB experiment should have ended once Deji gave away a soft penalty playing there last season. Morgan was blamed for that goal as didn't follow the runner, but where is the learning.
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These are the sort of heated debates I have have had over many years with Charlton athletic supporters/fans/critics. Home and away or neighbours (other Aussie soaps are available) in Bartram's or upper North Lounge or on trains, planes and automobiles. I miss the Craic of match days, but it's important that we have an outlet to argue our point without personal abuse to different opinions. From FA to Golfie and all views in between. CL is at its best when opinions are expressed in a clear coherent way and explained. CL is at its worse when "dog shit" is the best effort of a poster.
I would rather stay in League1, one more season and establish a style of play which can be replicated in the Championship.
I watch Davy Crockett if I want to watch the reinactment of the Alamo.
I'm not naive, and know League 1 can be a grind, but every game !
I have no ITK info about the dressing room now but when I did, it was more to do with the individual player and were they getting picked and playing in their favoured position, and wages and contracts.
Very rarely in recent times does losing the dressing room really apply.
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Not calling for the sack ...but does feel like the beginning of the end for LB.
Its all been said above. There were red flags last season that, given the amount of credit he was in and the general situation, were quite rightly overlooked.
It was all so simple at the start. 2 players for every position. Everyone knows their job. Now backup players, known quantities, are no longer good enough to be called upon and our left back is playing right mid (to nulify the oppo!?) and keeping our best attacking players out of the starting lineup.
When we do find ourselves in front we revert to a back six for the last 20 min and almost without exception end up conceding ....against shit teams who can't believe their luck.
And of course its always the fault of specific players. Ive stopped reading/watching Bowyers post match comments as he sounds more deluded every week.1
