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Dementia / Power of attorney
Comments
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https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorneycharltonbob said:
Thanks Mike, that's good to know. did you do this online through a solicitor or are the forms freely available for anyone ?eaststandmike said:Hi Bob,
My 95 year old Mum suffered all sorts of problems during the last couple of years of her life and I realised I had to act and get POA on both her medical & financial situation. I did it all on line without any hassle at all. Although dementia had kicked in and she was in a care home she understood enough to realise what I was suggesting and that she would have to sign.
I completed both the applications on line, printed off the docs and then got her to sign them with the care home manager as the witness. It was very straightforward and the main problem was the 8-10 weeks it takes for the docs to be approved.
If your mum is aware of what you are doing and knows she has to sign you should be in the same position as I was.
No Solicitor required, you have to pay a fee for each one though but still cheaper than a Solicitor3 -
god i love this site and the people who frequent it.4
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I have done LPAs for both sets of parents.The first thing to anyone with elderly parents (actually, parents over 50) is, as others have said, do it now.
Secondly, it can almost all be done online. When I last did one it was very repetitive but they may have refined it a bit since then.
Thirdly, you can have as many Attorneys as you want. This will depend on the family situation. If you only have one attorney and something happens to them you could have the problems you were trying to avoid.
The local authority will be giving you standard advice that may not be applicable. I wouldn’t trust them to get it right in any case.
A doctor’s opinion is just that. As has been suggested, if your mum has a doctor that knows her then go down that route. Mental capacity is variable and not the same as being able to make complex decisions. So long as your mum understands what she is signing at the time and can be confirmed by an independent person then you should be ok. There are a number of checks in the LPA process.
So, do both LPAs online and do them now. Good luck.4 -
sounds like your family doctor lied. No way should he have agreed that your Dad was capable of making such a decision.Huskaris said:
Can I ask if you went to a doctor that knows both your mum, and you?charltonbob said:
No worries.iaitch said:Why are you too late?
What's the difference in POA and Deputyship?
Sorry for the questions when you're looking for answers.
Too late because she (according to a doctor) is unable to make complex decisions for herself
Here's a link, I've just skimmed through but I think all details are there. From what I understand (from a different website) I actually have to pay each year to manage my mums money !
https://www.hughjames.com/blog/powers-of-attorney-and-deputyships-what-is-the-difference#:~:text=Differences between power of attorney,once an individual lacks capacity.
When I say that my dad was incapable of understanding the decision, he was completely non verbal at the time LPA was granted...
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I agree, but the "spirit of the rules" is are we making the best decisions for him and his wellbeing. If that is the case, and you know that is what someone would have wanted when they were of "more" sound mind, then the question is almost a moot one...LargeAddick said:
sounds like your family doctor lied. No way should he have agreed that your Dad was capable of making such a decision.Huskaris said:
Can I ask if you went to a doctor that knows both your mum, and you?charltonbob said:
No worries.iaitch said:Why are you too late?
What's the difference in POA and Deputyship?
Sorry for the questions when you're looking for answers.
Too late because she (according to a doctor) is unable to make complex decisions for herself
Here's a link, I've just skimmed through but I think all details are there. From what I understand (from a different website) I actually have to pay each year to manage my mums money !
https://www.hughjames.com/blog/powers-of-attorney-and-deputyships-what-is-the-difference#:~:text=Differences between power of attorney,once an individual lacks capacity.
When I say that my dad was incapable of understanding the decision, he was completely non verbal at the time LPA was granted...
I do agree though, it is a worrying thing to happen.0 -
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...3 -
I don't know for certain, but if the mum gives consent and an independent person witnesses that they did so willingly and in full understanding, I don't think there would be an issue, unless it was challenged.
If there are other sons/daughters likely to challenge then it would be problematic.0 -
This is why we fully involved the independent person (His friend) in the whole process. We went through each part and ensured he understood it however long that took. If we just read it and didn't explain parts he wouldn't have known it would not be right. The independent person could see by us doing this that my father in law understood what he was doing it it took as long as it took to do this. The explanations were accurate and he voluntarily agreed and understood.charltonbob said:
I was talking to Social Services today regarding Deprivation of Liberty & they advised that a Doctor had examined my mum & came to the conclusion that she was unable to make complex decisions. I know for certain that if I asked her if she wanted me to take control of her money she would say yes. If somebody else asked different questions they may well come to the conclusion that she was unable to make her own decisions.MuttleyCAFC said:Fortunately my wife got Power of attorney for her father early as he was not good at managing his money before dementia started to set in and he was grateful for it. It made life a lot easier for us and him.
Having dementia doesn't mean a person can't wish for somebody else to manage their affairs. Has your mum definitely gone beyond this point~?
She is hard of hearing & doesn't always understand what is being said or sometimes acts up & pretends that she doesn't hear.
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The problem can be issues you don't foresee like a stroke.LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...
Plus of course it is a far more difficult discussion if they have been diagnosed with a terminal illness.3 -
LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...
I've seen cases in hospital where someone has lost capacity due to a brain injury at a relatively young age so it makes sense to have an LPA in place once you are married, have kids, own assets etc. You can specify obviously when you want it to become active.
You only reason how important it is when you try to sort things out without one.3 - Sponsored links:
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No I haven't, the doctor who "examined" her was appointed by Social Services for the Deprivation of liberty issue. Her doctor isn't the same as mine & I've only met him once. I did think earlier that I should call the surgery but I don't have much faith in him as when she was probably at her worst after being discharged from hospital he asked her a couple of questions & decided that there was nothing the matter with her !!! I will give them a call though. ThanksHuskaris said:
Can I ask if you went to a doctor that knows both your mum, and you?charltonbob said:
No worries.iaitch said:Why are you too late?
What's the difference in POA and Deputyship?
Sorry for the questions when you're looking for answers.
Too late because she (according to a doctor) is unable to make complex decisions for herself
Here's a link, I've just skimmed through but I think all details are there. From what I understand (from a different website) I actually have to pay each year to manage my mums money !
https://www.hughjames.com/blog/powers-of-attorney-and-deputyships-what-is-the-difference#:~:text=Differences between power of attorney,once an individual lacks capacity.
When I say that my dad was incapable of understanding the decision, he was completely non verbal at the time LPA was granted...0 -
Fair points.Covered End said:
The problem can be issues you don't foresee like a stroke.LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...
Plus of course it is a far more difficult discussion if they have been diagnosed with a terminal illness.
A few years ago Golfie and I advised a friend to get his elderly parents to do their wills. He didn’t and his Dad died around the same time as his Mum got dementia and subsequently died. It took him a couple of years to sort the mess out.1 -
Yes I've not given up after reading so many helpful comments on here & I sincerely thank you all. The advice from Social Services etc was not so helpful. Never the less if I don't try then I've only myself to blame. Thank you all again it really is appreciated.MuttleyCAFC said:Whilst it is true everybody should do them and it is a useful message for all. CharltonBob's issue is that he doesn't think he can do it at this stage and it may still be a possibility for him. He states that is mum is still able to express a desire that he takes this over. That is an important decision, but I would argue not a complicated one. Of course it can be if there are family members contesting it etc... But if it is straightforward and her wish, it might not be too late.0 -
Social services gave us no support at all. We only wanted what was best for him, they only wanted to get rid of him. Is there a non family member that knows him and maybe you well. I would go down that route rather than a doctor if it is there for you. Together, and importantly with patience, you can ensure your mum understands what she wants.
It is ok to explain the situation to her. That if she doesn't want to give you POA, it could be given to a stranger that she will have to pay for. That is a truth.1 -
Thanks again Muttley, she's 93 so most of her friends have passed, I know one I could ask although sadly he lost his wife just before Christmas so he's in a bit of a state himself but needs must.MuttleyCAFC said:I wish I could remember, it was quite a few years ago, but I don't recall using a doctor. We got the forms and my father in law's friend and neighbour agreed to help. I think it has to be somebody who has known the person for over two years and not a family member.
We all completed the forms together in my father in law's nursing home. the friend completed his ones making a statement of how he knew my father in law and how he was capable of making the decision and Power of Attorney was granted. What I don't recall is whether we needed the support of a doctor but I don't think so.
Without it a deputy has to be appointed to perform this function and this can cost a lot of money as they don't do it for free. Most importantly, nobody could care about my father in law's welfare more than his daughter and it took a worry away from him whilst he was still able to worry about it. We visited him often and my wife was able to address his needs without the worry that he may be exploited. Does your mum have a friend of more than two years who can help?0 -
Thanks Covered End appreciatedCovered End said:1 -
No guarantee, but it could be nice for him knowing he is helping a friend.charltonbob said:
Thanks again Muttley, she's 93 so most of her friends have passed, I know one I could ask although sadly he lost his wife just before Christmas so he's in a bit of a state himself but needs must.MuttleyCAFC said:I wish I could remember, it was quite a few years ago, but I don't recall using a doctor. We got the forms and my father in law's friend and neighbour agreed to help. I think it has to be somebody who has known the person for over two years and not a family member.
We all completed the forms together in my father in law's nursing home. the friend completed his ones making a statement of how he knew my father in law and how he was capable of making the decision and Power of Attorney was granted. What I don't recall is whether we needed the support of a doctor but I don't think so.
Without it a deputy has to be appointed to perform this function and this can cost a lot of money as they don't do it for free. Most importantly, nobody could care about my father in law's welfare more than his daughter and it took a worry away from him whilst he was still able to worry about it. We visited him often and my wife was able to address his needs without the worry that he may be exploited. Does your mum have a friend of more than two years who can help?1 -
Hope you get it sorted.charltonbob said:
Thanks Covered End appreciatedCovered End said:1 -
Thanks Mike, much appreciatedeaststandmike said:
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorneycharltonbob said:
Thanks Mike, that's good to know. did you do this online through a solicitor or are the forms freely available for anyone ?eaststandmike said:Hi Bob,
My 95 year old Mum suffered all sorts of problems during the last couple of years of her life and I realised I had to act and get POA on both her medical & financial situation. I did it all on line without any hassle at all. Although dementia had kicked in and she was in a care home she understood enough to realise what I was suggesting and that she would have to sign.
I completed both the applications on line, printed off the docs and then got her to sign them with the care home manager as the witness. It was very straightforward and the main problem was the 8-10 weeks it takes for the docs to be approved.
If your mum is aware of what you are doing and knows she has to sign you should be in the same position as I was.
No Solicitor required, you have to pay a fee for each one though but still cheaper than a Solicitor1 -
I was purchasing a property. The couple moved into a care home after we had agreed the sale and a few days later the husband passed away. The wife was then diagnosed with dementia and not having mental capacity so the son couldn’t get power of attorney. He had to apply to high court, after waiting nearly a year he still hadn’t managed to get poa, so I pulled out of the move. A few weeks later his mum passed away and at that point no longer needed poa but it still hadn’t been approved by court. So as others have said best to get before you require it. He was having to cover her care home cost whilst he applied to the court.0
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As a rough rule of thumb get all your specialist advice and information from the national charity or voluntary sector group that specialises in the area you need.
Local Authorities and even the NHS cover such a broad spectrum of services they rarely get their information right, which is OK because that is not what they are there for (they tend to be clinicians or office staff).
In this instance Age UK provide excellent advice and you won't go far wrong with them.
.Gov websites tend to be accurate but a little wooden and not so in depth.
CAB is good but less chance of calling and speaking to somebody as they are snowed under.1 -
Thanks Hex, appreciated. No you're right it's not the same as making complex decisions, she is very aware that I take care of her financial/home stuff.Hex said:I have done LPAs for both sets of parents.The first thing to anyone with elderly parents (actually, parents over 50) is, as others have said, do it now.
Secondly, it can almost all be done online. When I last did one it was very repetitive but they may have refined it a bit since then.
Thirdly, you can have as many Attorneys as you want. This will depend on the family situation. If you only have one attorney and something happens to them you could have the problems you were trying to avoid.
The local authority will be giving you standard advice that may not be applicable. I wouldn’t trust them to get it right in any case.
A doctor’s opinion is just that. As has been suggested, if your mum has a doctor that knows her then go down that route. Mental capacity is variable and not the same as being able to make complex decisions. So long as your mum understands what she is signing at the time and can be confirmed by an independent person then you should be ok. There are a number of checks in the LPA process.
So, do both LPAs online and do them now. Good luck.0 -
That's for sure, never thought about it.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...
I've seen cases in hospital where someone has lost capacity due to a brain injury at a relatively young age so it makes sense to have an LPA in place once you are married, have kids, own assets etc. You can specify obviously when you want it to become active.
You only reason how important it is when you try to sort things out without one.0 -
No she would be fine with giving me POA, I've been looking after her (to a degree) & her financial business for 3/4 years & she once said do you want me to write a letter to say you can use my bank cards & I said no don't worry & just recently she thanked me for taking care of her finances so she wouldn't have any concern about me getting POA.MuttleyCAFC said:Social services gave us no support at all. We only wanted what was best for him, they only wanted to get rid of him. Is there a non family member that knows him and maybe you well. I would go down that route rather than a doctor if it is there for you. Together, and importantly with patience, you can ensure your mum understands what she wants.
It is ok to explain the situation to her. That if she doesn't want to give you POA, it could be given to a stranger that she will have to pay for. That is a truth.
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Looks very doable then. I think it is good when you go through the questions the friend is present. Then if they are questioned, they can say they was present when you both went through the questions which makes their support stronger.
Nobody can challenge what they saw and heard first hand.1 -
Do it now Large, until my Mum had her fall, while she had a short term memory problem apart from that she was as right as rain. Although I was doing things for her she was living alone, preparing her own meals, making & answering phone calls, holding perfectly normal conversations. After the fall all that changed, don't wait until something happens, get it done soon as.LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...2 -
Looks like I need to have a conversation over the weekend .....charltonbob said:
Do it now Large, until my Mum had her fall, while she had a short term memory problem apart from that she was as right as rain. Although I was doing things for her she was living alone, preparing her own meals, making & answering phone calls, holding perfectly normal conversations. After the fall all that changed, don't wait until something happens, get it done soon as.LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...3 -
I got the P of A for my ma in law because she was never the best with finances, so I did it all for her.
A few years later she had a stroke and would have been/is totally incapable ever since.0 -
It's a conversation none of us want to have mate, use my situation just to bring it up in conversation. Just about overnight my Mum became a different person.LargeAddick said:
Looks like I need to have a conversation over the weekend .....charltonbob said:
Do it now Large, until my Mum had her fall, while she had a short term memory problem apart from that she was as right as rain. Although I was doing things for her she was living alone, preparing her own meals, making & answering phone calls, holding perfectly normal conversations. After the fall all that changed, don't wait until something happens, get it done soon as.LargeAddick said:
Not a dreary outlook, just good foresight. As you can see others have left it too late. First sign of either of my parents going doolally then I’ll be getting LPOA’s like a shot.Fumbluff said:My old man must just have a dreary outlook as he got me, my sister and his own partner/missus LPA’s over him last year and there’s not a lot wrong with him mentally (aside from he always thinks he took me to my first match at The Valley when unfortunately it was Shithurst park) and now he’s relying on me to not lose half a dozen boring envelopes that some solicitor has sent me...1 -
Good for you Covered End, one less thing to worry about. Thanks to lots of brilliant advice on here hopefully I'll get my Mum sorted.Covered End said:I got the P of A for my ma in law because she was never the best with finances, so I did it all for her.
A few years later she had a stroke and would have been/is totally incapable ever since.2
